Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic healt

[garyd]

Almost certainly, Given that the prices we pay doctors are mostly related to the high and increasing cost of malpractice insurance rates doctors have to pay. By the way we don't have a capitalist medical system in this country. We have a system in which half its time and money are spent ensuring that it has all the t's crossed and i's dotted in order to keep regulators and lawyers at bay and that doesn't always work simply because human beings - and doctors are human beings - aren't perfect.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

And you want to be operated on by some guy wondering why he spent 8 years in college and 2-to four years as an intern and resident to make about the same money as a truck driver who dropped out of school in the 10th grade???

That's just absolutely false, though. Show me ONE example of where this is the case. Even in CUBA Doctors are the highest paid professionals. Here in Costa Rica we have near-universal health-care and doctors are the most esteemed, coveted, highest paid, and hardest careers to get into. And that's true everywhere. Are you suggesting that a French truck driver makes the same amount of money as a French doctor? Please. The average income of a Biritsh doctor hovers around L100,000 (or $200,000). The position that somehow a national health plan suddenly makes the profession obsolete is ridiculous.

 

[sparky]

Almost certainly, Given that the prices we pay doctors are mostly related to the high and increasing cost of malpractice insurance rates doctors have to pay. By the way we don't have a capitalist medical system in this country. We have a system in which half its time and money are spent ensuring that it has all the t's crossed and i's dotted in order to keep regulators and lawyers at bay and that doesn't always work simply because human beings - and doctors are human beings - aren't perfect.

i guess i shouldn't be shocked at people here turning their backs on their own Gary, even on this day, but i always am.

Millions of our children are at potential risk here because of the systemic failure , and growing disparity of HC in America

but even that won't sway you, or to be honest, most it would seem

and if it isn't their direct fault, it's that we're a litigant society reduced to some sort of parasitical existence to survive

my social engineering cup runneth over....

 

[Cecilie1200]

i guess i shouldn't be shocked at people here turning their backs on their own Gary, even on this day, but i always am.

Millions of our children are at potential risk here because of the systemic failure , and growing disparity of HC in America

but even that won't sway you, or to be honest, most it would seem

and if it isn't their direct fault, it's that we're a litigant society reduced to some sort of parasitical existence to survive

my social engineering cup runneth over....

Tell you what, son. You prove to us that the poor are dying from denial of basic healthcare here, and that there's no income disparity in healthcare accessibility in socialized medicine countries, and THEN we'll talk. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm just not willing to start the conversation from a position of blind acceptance of YOUR utopian fantasies as reality.

 

[jeffrockit]

A person decides to become a doctor and spends 10 years and a lot of money only to have the government dictate their terms. Why should the government be able to use force to tell someone that they have to provide a service (one they worked extremely hard for) for a price the government sets. We are then headed down a path where few will go into the medical profession and the quality of doctors will go down.

Less doctors will translate into longer waits and poorer quality of service. Also human nature will have people who don't really need to see a Dr. go just so they will get their money's worth, even though they won't really be paying. If you don't believe that, go to the grocery store or any retail and watch people buy excessive amounts of an item because it is cheap.

This cradle to the grave idea of government is wrong. The government is not our nanny. More and more freedoms will be lost with more government control. Do we really want that? ( I know that some do...the welfare crowd and etc.)

 

[Chris]

We already have universal healthcare, just a really, really bad version of it. Everyone can be treated in the emergency room. We don't let people bleed to death on the street here. Not yet, anyway. So the rich get great healthcare, and the poor get no healthcare until they are at death's door. Does that sound like a good way to run a society? No, it doesn't. The ironic thing is that every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because they don't have to pay liability lawyers, insurance companies, and Big Pharma. There are inherent cost savings with a single payer system. The Germans have had one since 1886!

With a single payer system you would still pick your doctor, and your doctor would still own his practice. There would just be one insurance company, and that would be the government.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

I feel the point bears repeating:

Where are the hordes of doctors, patients, and people demanding the end of "socialized medicine"? Where are these people? Where are all the Japanese, Britons, French, Spaniards, Japanese, Australians, Czechs, Danes doctors, patients, and people BEGGING for their government to destroy this demonic communist medicine? I just don't understand where they are. Where are they hiding? Where are the big campaigns against this unspeakable evil? Why is it that not even the most conservative parties can even dream of putting "abolishing communist health care" on their platform? It is because they fear the evil Icelandic, Swedish, or Norwegian KGB thought police? Is the New Zealand SS putting all these hordes of malcontents in jail?

Where are they??

I mean, I understand. You have a model in your head. It tells you that with "socialized medicine" doctors become dirt poor, there's no quality, and everyone is friggin' PISSED. The reasoning may be very good and logical. But where's the evidence? Where are the millions of destitute doctors storming the streets of Ottawa and Vienna for freedom and fair wages?

And that's to say nothing about the myriad of other ridiculous charges against "communistic medicine". Let's make these two VERY clear:

1) Research & Development: Nationalized health care systems have absolutely NOTHING to do with medical research. NOTHING WHATSOEVER. Some of the largest, most successful, and most PRIVATE medical R&D firms are in countries with nationalized health systems. These firms, many in Europe and Asia, are NOT PUBLIC. If anything, governments everywhere, including in the US, subsidize these private firms through the infrastructure provided by the networks of university and state research grants. But this has absolutely nothing to do with national health care, other than the national health agencies buy their products. So zip it.

2) Foreigners coming over for treatment: This has also very little to do with national health plans. In Costa Rica, about 10% of the the tourism we receive (we're talking 10% of some 2,000,000 people a year who come visit, so thousand and thousands of people) are Americans, Canadians and other developed country citizens who come specifically for some kinds of medical treatment, because it's cheaper and it's done well. Does that mean that our health system is superior to the Canadian health care system? Absolutely not. Just because a relative handful of rich foreigners choose to come for SOME specific treatment (plastic surgery, dental work, etc.) does not in any way speak of any of the merits of the National HEALTH SYSTEM. These things are set apart, and cannot measure the ability of the system in confronting the efficient managing to provide the services required by the population of the country at large. The idea that a handful of people go to a country for a specific treatment means that "oh, our health SYSTEM is just great" doesn't make any sense. Sure, the quality of the service of that particular kind might be high, but that doesn't really mean anything in regards to the health SYSTEM.

---

Now, the way I see it, there are countries in which there is no health system and people want it (usually dirt-poor countries, like Nicaragua, most of sub-Saharan Africa, etc), and there's countries with national health systems (basically every developed country and some middle-income ones) and nobody wants to get rid of it. The problem in America is that there is a bizarre hybrid, and a huge majority WANT a national health system. So no matter what, the current state of affairs has to change. Nobody wants it. So the government has to tear it down, and either 1) follow the ~30%+ who want a true free health-care market (i.e. no health system) or 2) follow the ~60%+ who want a national health system. What are the possibilities?

It appears that in option number (1) what we have are, again, lovely models and hope that the free market solution "works". I guess everyone has their own definition of "works" though. I'm sure it would at least provide a good big chunk of the population with very good care. Like any commodity, those who can afford it buy it. Those who don't, don't. Personally, I don't think this is a good model for health care, cuz I believe health care is a basic human right (and most Americans agree with me on this), but I understand many people here don't, and that's fine. What option (2) has to offer is that there's tangible evidence that it "works", based on the evidence of pretty much every other developed country. But again, it "works" under the belief that health care is a basic human right and one of the only legitimate roles of the state.

So that's that.

EDIT: I ask please, if anyone bothers to respond, I'm really looking for someone to shed light on the first point: Where are the hordes who want to abolish their national health care? That's what I'm really confused about. A lot of people here talk as though it's some sort of huge unknown. Something new and scary, which has never been tried before in the history of man kind. That's not true. There's dozens of examples to choose from. If indeed national health care fucks the doctors, fucks the quality, and fucks the national budget: where's the heat? I really wanna know.

(PS: Saying that the population of every other developed country is a bunch of lazy fuckers doesn't count.)

 

[editec]

If you make above 50 k a year that is exactly what you want Chris. That number takes in the top 40 percent of Americans.

No it doesn't.

That number takes in the top 40% of all household incomes, perhaps.

Looks to me like the median salary for individuals who worked full time was about $28,937.

You can find that data here:

PINC-10--Part 1

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Well, there goes the thread. Again.