CDZ Americans and our heritage of Revolutionary ideals

[initforme]

Slave owners were utter scum. They were not Christians but they were lazy filth who didn't think they should work for their profits.

 

[Fishlore]

A few know that I love the study of both history, especially military history, and human behavioral psychology (studying what makes people tick).

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

That concept is not idealistic, but it's not 100% accurate since human beings, despite their 99.5% genetic alikeness, can vary widely in personality. This is why we have a lot of "Tories" in America not only in 1775 but also 2017. In fact, we have a majority of "Tories" today, people who believe it's best to bow down to authority rather than stand on their own. Both Left and Right Winged. LWLs and RWNJs, alike, believe in bowing down to authority. To dictating to others how to live, what to believe and what to think.

That said, besides genetic human behavior differences and similarities, there is also the phenomenon of human culture; almost a life of it's own and much more longevity. The common name for this is "meme", but it's much more than that. Obviously "American culture" is much different than "German culture" and "French culture" even though. Much different. As much as they are different, the French and Germans are much more alike in culture than Americans. The closet cultures to our own that I've found are Australians and Brazilians. Even so, our culture is radically different, even from our neighbors to the immediate North and South, for the reasons I previously mentioned: people who voluntarily removed themselves from an authoritarian culture. It's no secret that much of that was religiously based, which also explains why Protestant religion plays such a big part in our culture.

Culture can't be changed with the wave of an Executive Order or even an Amendment to the Constitution (look at Prohibition!). It takes decades, sometimes tens of decades.

My main interest here is discussing whether or not the American ideal of revolution is a good or or out of date. Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments?

There is no "American culture" this is the central fact about our nation. There are a dozen or more "cultures" loosely strung together by a few abstract Enlightenment idea which get little more than lip service. This is a fundamental weakness baked into the American cake.

The great German sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies developed a scheme which balances Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft (culture and society) to explain the dialectic of social change. It's the best tool to understand American society which I know.

As Tönnies theory explains, America has always been a profoundly conservative nation (slavery, the 1% etc.) despite our loudly proclaimed self-image as revolutionary progressives. Uncle Sam, after all, is a Gemini born on the 4th of July

 

[regent]

European and American intellectuals were going though an age of change in the 1700's. It was a change in thoughts, beliefs, and how to think, using reason. Actually America was born on July 2.

 

[Divine Wind]

A few know that I love the study of both history, especially military history, and human behavioral psychology (studying what makes people tick).

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

That concept is not idealistic, but it's not 100% accurate since human beings, despite their 99.5% genetic alikeness, can vary widely in personality. This is why we have a lot of "Tories" in America not only in 1775 but also 2017. In fact, we have a majority of "Tories" today, people who believe it's best to bow down to authority rather than stand on their own. Both Left and Right Winged. LWLs and RWNJs, alike, believe in bowing down to authority. To dictating to others how to live, what to believe and what to think.

That said, besides genetic human behavior differences and similarities, there is also the phenomenon of human culture; almost a life of it's own and much more longevity. The common name for this is "meme", but it's much more than that. Obviously "American culture" is much different than "German culture" and "French culture" even though. Much different. As much as they are different, the French and Germans are much more alike in culture than Americans. The closet cultures to our own that I've found are Australians and Brazilians. Even so, our culture is radically different, even from our neighbors to the immediate North and South, for the reasons I previously mentioned: people who voluntarily removed themselves from an authoritarian culture. It's no secret that much of that was religiously based, which also explains why Protestant religion plays such a big part in our culture.

Culture can't be changed with the wave of an Executive Order or even an Amendment to the Constitution (look at Prohibition!). It takes decades, sometimes tens of decades.

My main interest here is discussing whether or not the American ideal of revolution is a good or or out of date. Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments?

There is no "American culture" this is the central fact about our nation. There are a dozen or more "cultures" loosely strung together by a few abstract Enlightenment idea which get little more than lip service. This is a fundamental weakness baked into the American cake.

The great German sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies developed a scheme which balances Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft (culture and society) to explain the dialectic of social change. It's the best tool to understand American society which I know.

As Tönnies theory explains, America has always been a profoundly conservative nation (slavery, the 1% etc.) despite our loudly proclaimed self-image as revolutionary progressives. Uncle Sam, after all, is a Gemini born on the 4th of July

Thanks for the post. Yes, I can agree there is no single American culture due to the size of our nation, but I do think there is at least a few threads similarity running through the tapesty.

 

[Divine Wind]

A few know that I love the study of both history, especially military history, and human behavioral psychology (studying what makes people tick).

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

That concept is not idealistic, but it's not 100% accurate since human beings, despite their 99.5% genetic alikeness, can vary widely in personality. This is why we have a lot of "Tories" in America not only in 1775 but also 2017. In fact, we have a majority of "Tories" today, people who believe it's best to bow down to authority rather than stand on their own. Both Left and Right Winged. LWLs and RWNJs, alike, believe in bowing down to authority. To dictating to others how to live, what to believe and what to think.

That said, besides genetic human behavior differences and similarities, there is also the phenomenon of human culture; almost a life of it's own and much more longevity. The common name for this is "meme", but it's much more than that. Obviously "American culture" is much different than "German culture" and "French culture" even though. Much different. As much as they are different, the French and Germans are much more alike in culture than Americans. The closet cultures to our own that I've found are Australians and Brazilians. Even so, our culture is radically different, even from our neighbors to the immediate North and South, for the reasons I previously mentioned: people who voluntarily removed themselves from an authoritarian culture. It's no secret that much of that was religiously based, which also explains why Protestant religion plays such a big part in our culture.

Culture can't be changed with the wave of an Executive Order or even an Amendment to the Constitution (look at Prohibition!). It takes decades, sometimes tens of decades.

My main interest here is discussing whether or not the American ideal of revolution is a good or or out of date. Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments?

There is no "American culture" this is the central fact about our nation. There are a dozen or more "cultures" loosely strung together by a few abstract Enlightenment idea which get little more than lip service. This is a fundamental weakness baked into the American cake.

The great German sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies developed a scheme which balances Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft (culture and society) to explain the dialectic of social change. It's the best tool to understand American society which I know.

As Tönnies theory explains, America has always been a profoundly conservative nation (slavery, the 1% etc.) despite our loudly proclaimed self-image as revolutionary progressives. Uncle Sam, after all, is a Gemini born on the 4th of July

We are, indeed, a melting pot of cultures. Still, like any stew which is flavored by its contents, the American stew has a distinct flavor far different than any other. My question is why?

Left wingers made a big deal about violence in America and seek to be "more like Europe" in banning guns, but that only adds oppression to the "stew" without actually doing anything to change American culture. The purpose of this thread is to explore why American culture is different and to understand why those differences, if any, exist. I offered one theory. Thanks for offering some additional viewpoints.

 

[Divine Wind]

European and American intellectuals were going though an age of change in the 1700's. It was a change in thoughts, beliefs, and how to think, using reason. Actually America was born on July 2.

Agreed about change. Most of our Founders were Renaissance men. Still, as mentioned above, America is different from the Europeans in many ways as this thread has attempted to discuss.

It's not just slavery as some have attempted to inject since many European nations had slavery. If not in their mainlands, than in their colonies.

 

[there4eyeM]

How does having a government policy of torture fit in?

 

[Divine Wind]

How does having a government policy of torture fit in?

Barbarism and torture are as old as the human race. That said, I think it goes against American ideals, that it's a step backward born out of fear.

 

[2aguy]

Well first off our constitution is a ripoff of the Great law of the Iroquois whose native name "Snow Lodge" sure sounds like a synonym for "too stupid to head south like our Cherokee cousins." And speaking of Cherokee of which I are one, at least by census records our "native name" Tsalagi sure looks likes a mispronounciation of Tsalaki which the natives find spelled Cilicia in English. So, why should Europeans understand us or even try to?

No...that is not true......the founders did not base our society on indians......they were all versed in the Greek and Romans and the governments of Europe.....that mythi is exactly that...a myth....

 

[2aguy]

Are you disagreeing with the idea of revolting against authoritarianism? Do you support the idea of freedom for all or not? Please be honest in answering.

I'm saying Americans did not revolt against authoritarianism, they merely wanted to install their own. How can that be denied? After all, they did it, even writing it into the founding document.

edit...Further, Americans did not agree with the idea of freedom for all, that is risible. Their own founding document treats people as property, as unfree as possible.

And you are not reporting the 3/5ths clause accurately.....it was designed to weaken the slave owning states........not empower them......you guys keep telling that lie....but we have the internet now and we aren't going to let you get away with it....

 

[2aguy]

Read upon real American history like "1421", "1491" and Peter C. Newman's multi-volume history of the HBC and then we'll talk.

You are free to deviate from the topic and run off at the mouth. If the Iroquois hadn't spent so much time fighting themselve and other native American tribes, maybe they could have been coordinated enough to develop tech to fight off the European invaders. As it was, they were too petty and primitive against an advance civilization. Sad, but true.

God Bless America!

They had been around as long as the Europeans and were no where near as technologicially advanced as the Europeans...and that is what ended their socieites...had they been as advanced as the Europeans, they would still be in contrtol of the Continent....

 

[2aguy]

They embraced the ultimate authoritarianism, slavery, and wrote its conditions into the founding document. How is that being treated as equal? Risible.

You are compartmentalising the history you know in order to promote an American fantasy. You know people were enslaved and treated as property yet you witter on about freedom, equality and anti authoritarianism.

And you talk about honesty.

Disagreed on "ultimate authoritarianism", but would like you to expound on your reasoning. As for slavery, that was a compromise. Without the 3/5s compromise there would have been no United States. Like many politicians facing difficult situations today, the Constitution 'kicked the slavery can down the road". Every time a new state was to be admitted to the Union, the slavery issue came up. In the end, the situation came to a head with the American Civil War and the problem of slavery was resolved.

Yes, I readily understand Americans of 1789 had a lot of baggage with them. That the Constitution wasn't perfect then and, albeit it's better, isn't perfect now. That's the reality. What is your proposal to change it?

Slavery was here when the Europeans arrived, and the Europeans brought slaves here, sold to them by africans....so the European and African slave trade was something the colonists had to deal with when we were becoming a new country......and we ended it.....

 

[2aguy]

A few know that I love the study of both history, especially military history, and human behavioral psychology (studying what makes people tick).

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

That concept is not idealistic, but it's not 100% accurate since human beings, despite their 99.5% genetic alikeness, can vary widely in personality. This is why we have a lot of "Tories" in America not only in 1775 but also 2017. In fact, we have a majority of "Tories" today, people who believe it's best to bow down to authority rather than stand on their own. Both Left and Right Winged. LWLs and RWNJs, alike, believe in bowing down to authority. To dictating to others how to live, what to believe and what to think.

That said, besides genetic human behavior differences and similarities, there is also the phenomenon of human culture; almost a life of it's own and much more longevity. The common name for this is "meme", but it's much more than that. Obviously "American culture" is much different than "German culture" and "French culture" even though. Much different. As much as they are different, the French and Germans are much more alike in culture than Americans. The closet cultures to our own that I've found are Australians and Brazilians. Even so, our culture is radically different, even from our neighbors to the immediate North and South, for the reasons I previously mentioned: people who voluntarily removed themselves from an authoritarian culture. It's no secret that much of that was religiously based, which also explains why Protestant religion plays such a big part in our culture.

Culture can't be changed with the wave of an Executive Order or even an Amendment to the Constitution (look at Prohibition!). It takes decades, sometimes tens of decades.

My main interest here is discussing whether or not the American ideal of revolution is a good or or out of date. Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments?

There is no "American culture" this is the central fact about our nation. There are a dozen or more "cultures" loosely strung together by a few abstract Enlightenment idea which get little more than lip service. This is a fundamental weakness baked into the American cake.

The great German sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies developed a scheme which balances Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft (culture and society) to explain the dialectic of social change. It's the best tool to understand American society which I know.

As Tönnies theory explains, America has always been a profoundly conservative nation (slavery, the 1% etc.) despite our loudly proclaimed self-image as revolutionary progressives. Uncle Sam, after all, is a Gemini born on the 4th of July

Slavery isn't a "conservative" concept....it has been in every single country on the planet.....we ended it here.....with the creation of our new country.....

 

[2aguy]

A few know that I love the study of both history, especially military history, and human behavioral psychology (studying what makes people tick).

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

That concept is not idealistic, but it's not 100% accurate since human beings, despite their 99.5% genetic alikeness, can vary widely in personality. This is why we have a lot of "Tories" in America not only in 1775 but also 2017. In fact, we have a majority of "Tories" today, people who believe it's best to bow down to authority rather than stand on their own. Both Left and Right Winged. LWLs and RWNJs, alike, believe in bowing down to authority. To dictating to others how to live, what to believe and what to think.

That said, besides genetic human behavior differences and similarities, there is also the phenomenon of human culture; almost a life of it's own and much more longevity. The common name for this is "meme", but it's much more than that. Obviously "American culture" is much different than "German culture" and "French culture" even though. Much different. As much as they are different, the French and Germans are much more alike in culture than Americans. The closet cultures to our own that I've found are Australians and Brazilians. Even so, our culture is radically different, even from our neighbors to the immediate North and South, for the reasons I previously mentioned: people who voluntarily removed themselves from an authoritarian culture. It's no secret that much of that was religiously based, which also explains why Protestant religion plays such a big part in our culture.

Culture can't be changed with the wave of an Executive Order or even an Amendment to the Constitution (look at Prohibition!). It takes decades, sometimes tens of decades.

My main interest here is discussing whether or not the American ideal of revolution is a good or or out of date. Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments?

There is no "American culture" this is the central fact about our nation. There are a dozen or more "cultures" loosely strung together by a few abstract Enlightenment idea which get little more than lip service. This is a fundamental weakness baked into the American cake.

The great German sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies developed a scheme which balances Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft (culture and society) to explain the dialectic of social change. It's the best tool to understand American society which I know.

As Tönnies theory explains, America has always been a profoundly conservative nation (slavery, the 1% etc.) despite our loudly proclaimed self-image as revolutionary progressives. Uncle Sam, after all, is a Gemini born on the 4th of July

We are, indeed, a melting pot of cultures. Still, like any stew which is flavored by its contents, the American stew has a distinct flavor far different than any other. My question is why?

Left wingers made a big deal about violence in America and seek to be "more like Europe" in banning guns, but that only adds oppression to the "stew" without actually doing anything to change American culture. The purpose of this thread is to explore why American culture is different and to understand why those differences, if any, exist. I offered one theory. Thanks for offering some additional viewpoints.

And violence......the Europeans murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children in modern times.......those not actively doing it handed over citizens to the Germans.......the worst of the ideologies of the 20th century...communism, national socialism...were created in Europe...they do not have some wonderful, non violent history that makes them superior to the United States...in fact, if you add in the genocide by Germany.....their murder rate is still higher than ours.....even after all these years......

 

[rightwinger]

A few know that I love the study of both history, especially military history, and human behavioral psychology (studying what makes people tick).

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

That concept is not idealistic, but it's not 100% accurate since human beings, despite their 99.5% genetic alikeness, can vary widely in personality. This is why we have a lot of "Tories" in America not only in 1775 but also 2017. In fact, we have a majority of "Tories" today, people who believe it's best to bow down to authority rather than stand on their own. Both Left and Right Winged. LWLs and RWNJs, alike, believe in bowing down to authority. To dictating to others how to live, what to believe and what to think.

That said, besides genetic human behavior differences and similarities, there is also the phenomenon of human culture; almost a life of it's own and much more longevity. The common name for this is "meme", but it's much more than that. Obviously "American culture" is much different than "German culture" and "French culture" even though. Much different. As much as they are different, the French and Germans are much more alike in culture than Americans. The closet cultures to our own that I've found are Australians and Brazilians. Even so, our culture is radically different, even from our neighbors to the immediate North and South, for the reasons I previously mentioned: people who voluntarily removed themselves from an authoritarian culture. It's no secret that much of that was religiously based, which also explains why Protestant religion plays such a big part in our culture.

Culture can't be changed with the wave of an Executive Order or even an Amendment to the Constitution (look at Prohibition!). It takes decades, sometimes tens of decades.

My main interest here is discussing whether or not the American ideal of revolution is a good or or out of date. Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments?

More than any other nation, America has a blended culture that is constantly evolving. We have assumed language and traditions from almost every immigrant group that has settled here

What has always interested me is how the American culture has dominated the globe. Our language, fashion, food, media and entertainment dominates the world today. English is a common language because of the importation of American culture

 

[rightwinger]

Are you disagreeing with the idea of revolting against authoritarianism? Do you support the idea of freedom for all or not? Please be honest in answering.

I'm saying Americans did not revolt against authoritarianism, they merely wanted to install their own. How can that be denied? After all, they did it, even writing it into the founding document.

edit...Further, Americans did not agree with the idea of freedom for all, that is risible. Their own founding document treats people as property, as unfree as possible.

And you are not reporting the 3/5ths clause accurately.....it was designed to weaken the slave owning states........not empower them......you guys keep telling that lie....but we have the internet now and we aren't going to let you get away with it....

The 3/5 clause unfairly strengthened slave owning states. It gave them credit in representation in Congress for people that were considered property in those states. You may as well have given credit for the numbers of horses and cows....they had the same rights

 

[Divine Wind]

Read upon real American history like "1421", "1491" and Peter C. Newman's multi-volume history of the HBC and then we'll talk.

You are free to deviate from the topic and run off at the mouth. If the Iroquois hadn't spent so much time fighting themselve and other native American tribes, maybe they could have been coordinated enough to develop tech to fight off the European invaders. As it was, they were too petty and primitive against an advance civilization. Sad, but true.

God Bless America!

They had been around as long as the Europeans and were no where near as technologicially advanced as the Europeans...and that is what ended their socieites...had they been as advanced as the Europeans, they would still be in contrtol of the Continent....

Agreed about tech, but who says tech is the end all to be all?


The Chinese invented gunpowder and paper, but the West refined their usage much more so than the Chinese. Was it because the Chinese were stupid? No. IMHO, it's cultural differences of philosophy. Same goes for Native Americans; their culture focused less on tech and more on spirituality whereas Western philosophy was/is more the opposite.

EASTERN versus WESTERN PHILOSOPHY: Differences and Similarities. Cultural Intelligence, World Cultures comparison by Anastasia Bibikova and Vadim Kotelnikov

Facts About Ancient Chinese Gunpowder

Four Inventions of Ancient China: Paper Making, Gunpowder, Printing, Compass

 

[rightwinger]

Read upon real American history like "1421", "1491" and Peter C. Newman's multi-volume history of the HBC and then we'll talk.

You are free to deviate from the topic and run off at the mouth. If the Iroquois hadn't spent so much time fighting themselve and other native American tribes, maybe they could have been coordinated enough to develop tech to fight off the European invaders. As it was, they were too petty and primitive against an advance civilization. Sad, but true.

God Bless America!

They had been around as long as the Europeans and were no where near as technologicially advanced as the Europeans...and that is what ended their socieites...had they been as advanced as the Europeans, they would still be in contrtol of the Continent....

Agreed about tech, but who says tech is the end all to be all?


The Chinese invented gunpowder and paper, but the West refined their usage much more so than the Chinese. Was it because the Chinese were stupid? No. IMHO, it's cultural differences of philosophy. Same goes for Native Americans; their culture focused less on tech and more on spirituality whereas Western philosophy was/is more the opposite.

EASTERN versus WESTERN PHILOSOPHY: Differences and Similarities. Cultural Intelligence, World Cultures comparison by Anastasia Bibikova and Vadim Kotelnikov

Facts About Ancient Chinese Gunpowder

Four Inventions of Ancient China: Paper Making, Gunpowder, Printing, Compass

I think the main reason was that China was a closed culture. All invention had to come from within

The west was constantly trading technology and invention which enabled them to develop metallurgy, chemistry and science at an accelerated pace

 

[Divine Wind]

Are you disagreeing with the idea of revolting against authoritarianism? Do you support the idea of freedom for all or not? Please be honest in answering.

I'm saying Americans did not revolt against authoritarianism, they merely wanted to install their own. How can that be denied? After all, they did it, even writing it into the founding document.

edit...Further, Americans did not agree with the idea of freedom for all, that is risible. Their own founding document treats people as property, as unfree as possible.

And you are not reporting the 3/5ths clause accurately.....it was designed to weaken the slave owning states........not empower them......you guys keep telling that lie....but we have the internet now and we aren't going to let you get away with it....

The 3/5 clause unfairly strengthened slave owning states. It gave them credit in representation in Congress for people that were considered property in those states. You may as well have given credit for the numbers of horses and cows....they had the same rights

Without the 3/5s clause, there'd be no Constitution and, therefore, no 13 "United States". Period.

 

[Divine Wind]

Read upon real American history like "1421", "1491" and Peter C. Newman's multi-volume history of the HBC and then we'll talk.

You are free to deviate from the topic and run off at the mouth. If the Iroquois hadn't spent so much time fighting themselve and other native American tribes, maybe they could have been coordinated enough to develop tech to fight off the European invaders. As it was, they were too petty and primitive against an advance civilization. Sad, but true.

God Bless America!

They had been around as long as the Europeans and were no where near as technologicially advanced as the Europeans...and that is what ended their socieites...had they been as advanced as the Europeans, they would still be in contrtol of the Continent....

Agreed about tech, but who says tech is the end all to be all?


The Chinese invented gunpowder and paper, but the West refined their usage much more so than the Chinese. Was it because the Chinese were stupid? No. IMHO, it's cultural differences of philosophy. Same goes for Native Americans; their culture focused less on tech and more on spirituality whereas Western philosophy was/is more the opposite.

EASTERN versus WESTERN PHILOSOPHY: Differences and Similarities. Cultural Intelligence, World Cultures comparison by Anastasia Bibikova and Vadim Kotelnikov

Facts About Ancient Chinese Gunpowder

Four Inventions of Ancient China: Paper Making, Gunpowder, Printing, Compass

I think the main reason was that China was a closed culture. All invention had to come from within

The west was constantly trading technology and invention which enabled them to develop metallurgy, chemistry and science at an accelerated pace

While I agree, note those are cultural differences. Add to this, it's a judgment call, not necessarily a truism, that one is better than the other.

It's true to say the Western mankind was more technologically advanced than Native American or Chinese mankind, but it's a different thing altogether to say Western culture is better than either of those two by equating technology with goodness.