CDZ Americans and our heritage of Revolutionary ideals

[Divine Wind]

A few know that I love the study of both history, especially military history, and human behavioral psychology (studying what makes people tick).

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

That concept is not idealistic, but it's not 100% accurate since human beings, despite their 99.5% genetic alikeness, can vary widely in personality. This is why we have a lot of "Tories" in America not only in 1775 but also 2017. In fact, we have a majority of "Tories" today, people who believe it's best to bow down to authority rather than stand on their own. Both Left and Right Winged. LWLs and RWNJs, alike, believe in bowing down to authority. To dictating to others how to live, what to believe and what to think.

That said, besides genetic human behavior differences and similarities, there is also the phenomenon of human culture; almost a life of it's own and much more longevity. The common name for this is "meme", but it's much more than that. Obviously "American culture" is much different than "German culture" and "French culture" even though. Much different. As much as they are different, the French and Germans are much more alike in culture than Americans. The closet cultures to our own that I've found are Australians and Brazilians. Even so, our culture is radically different, even from our neighbors to the immediate North and South, for the reasons I previously mentioned: people who voluntarily removed themselves from an authoritarian culture. It's no secret that much of that was religiously based, which also explains why Protestant religion plays such a big part in our culture.

Culture can't be changed with the wave of an Executive Order or even an Amendment to the Constitution (look at Prohibition!). It takes decades, sometimes tens of decades.

My main interest here is discussing whether or not the American ideal of revolution is a good or or out of date. Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments?

 

[william the wie]

I have no idea.

 

[Divine Wind]

This is a project in progress.

Here is one article about Euro views of Americans. Yes, all are trivial, but it's a staring point on understanding cultural differencxes. Notice they treat "Europeans" as one. :
16 things Europeans find strange about America

 

[cnm]

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

Who would categorise people as property and assign three fifths of a vote per property unit to its owner? Revolutionary and idealistic indeed, and not at all authoritarian.

 

[Divine Wind]

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.

Who would categorise people as property and assign three fifths of a vote per property unit to its owner? Revolutionary and idealistic indeed, and not at all authoritarian.

Are you disagreeing with the idea of revolting against authoritarianism? Do you support the idea of freedom for all or not? Please be honest in answering.

 

[william the wie]

Well first off our constitution is a ripoff of the Great law of the Iroquois whose native name "Snow Lodge" sure sounds like a synonym for "too stupid to head south like our Cherokee cousins." And speaking of Cherokee of which I are one, at least by census records our "native name" Tsalagi sure looks likes a mispronounciation of Tsalaki which the natives find spelled Cilicia in English. So, why should Europeans understand us or even try to?

 

[Divine Wind]

Well first off our constitution is a ripoff of the Great law of the Iroquois whose native name "Snow Lodge" sure sounds like a synonym for "too stupid to head south like our Cherokee cousins." And speaking of Cherokee of which I are one, at least by census records our "native name" Tsalagi sure looks likes a mispronounciation of Tsalaki which the natives find spelled Cilicia in English. So, why should Europeans understand us or even try to?

Calling it a "ripoff" is wrong since many of the ideals come from the Magna Carta and John Locke, all well before anyone knew about "Great law" of native Americans. However, many human cultures of spoken of such ideals. A more truthful statement is as stated in the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence...

The words, like your Iroquois words, are not unique to any culture. They are part of being a human being. Are you declaring yourself and your culture to be better than all other human beings and all other desires for freedom?

 

[william the wie]

Read upon real American history like "1421", "1491" and Peter C. Newman's multi-volume history of the HBC and then we'll talk.

 

[cnm]

Are you disagreeing with the idea of revolting against authoritarianism? Do you support the idea of freedom for all or not? Please be honest in answering.

I'm saying Americans did not revolt against authoritarianism, they merely wanted to install their own. How can that be denied? After all, they did it, even writing it into the founding document.

edit...Further, Americans did not agree with the idea of freedom for all, that is risible. Their own founding document treats people as property, as unfree as possible.

 

[cnm]

By the way, your entreaty to honesty is laughable after your OP loaded with dog whistles.

 

[Divine Wind]

Read upon real American history like "1421", "1491" and Peter C. Newman's multi-volume history of the HBC and then we'll talk.

You are free to deviate from the topic and run off at the mouth. If the Iroquois hadn't spent so much time fighting themselve and other native American tribes, maybe they could have been coordinated enough to develop tech to fight off the European invaders. As it was, they were too petty and primitive against an advance civilization. Sad, but true.

God Bless America!

 

[Divine Wind]

By the way, your entreaty to honesty is laughable after your OP loaded with dog whistles.

Prove me wrong. Just one "dog whistle" will do. Facts will be appreciated as well as honesty.

 

[Divine Wind]

Are you disagreeing with the idea of revolting against authoritarianism?

I'm saying Americans did not revolt against authoritarianism, they merely wanted to install their own. How can that be denied? After all, they did it, even writing it into the founding document.

Disagreed. The truth is, they just wanted to be treated as equal and full British citizens. Revolution was a last resort. Example: Open Yale Courses | The American Revolution

Still, as history proves, there were many who left Europe to seek freedom for themselves and their families.

 

[cnm]

Just one "dog whistle" will do.

Here's a paragraph of them..

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.​

 

[cnm]

Disagreed. The truth is, they just wanted to be treated as equal and full British citizens. Revolution was a last resort.

They embraced the ultimate authoritarianism, slavery, and wrote its conditions into the founding document. How is that being treated as equal? Risible.

You are compartmentalising the history you know in order to promote an American fantasy. You know people were enslaved and treated as property yet you witter on about freedom, equality and anti authoritarianism.

And you talk about honesty.

 

[Divine Wind]

Just one "dog whistle" will do.

Here's a paragraph of them..

Genetically, and psychologically, if you separate out a group of people who are anti-authoritarian, independent and willing to die rather than live under the thumb of others from people who are content to bow down to authority, then you end up with a bunch of radicals in a hostile country who must fight to survive rather than suck off the tit of monarchy, socialism or any other all powerful authority who promises to care for those who fall to their knees.​

What "dogwhistle" do you claim is being made? If one of the Iroquois tribes separated out their most aggressive, anti-authoritarian members and put them into a special tribe, do you not see how that new tribe would be different from the others? In fact, wouldn't the other tribes end up more content and "go along to get along" than a tribe of fiercely independent malcontents

 

[Divine Wind]

They embraced the ultimate authoritarianism, slavery, and wrote its conditions into the founding document. How is that being treated as equal? Risible.

You are compartmentalising the history you know in order to promote an American fantasy. You know people were enslaved and treated as property yet you witter on about freedom, equality and anti authoritarianism.

And you talk about honesty.

Disagreed on "ultimate authoritarianism", but would like you to expound on your reasoning. As for slavery, that was a compromise. Without the 3/5s compromise there would have been no United States. Like many politicians facing difficult situations today, the Constitution 'kicked the slavery can down the road". Every time a new state was to be admitted to the Union, the slavery issue came up. In the end, the situation came to a head with the American Civil War and the problem of slavery was resolved.

Yes, I readily understand Americans of 1789 had a lot of baggage with them. That the Constitution wasn't perfect then and, albeit it's better, isn't perfect now. That's the reality. What is your proposal to change it?

 

[cnm]

As for slavery, that was a compromise.

So there was no ideal of freedom and anti authoritarianism, rather a stodgy pragmatism to oppress others for the sake of profit. Oh, okay, that is an American ideal, I'll give you that.

 

[cnm]

What can be more authoritarian than slavery, where the master has total authority?

 

[Divine Wind]

What can be more authoritarian than slavery, where the master has total authority?

Slavery, is, indeed, an authoritarian system over the slaves. However, many countries with slaves, like the Iroquois Nation, respected the rights of non-slaves.

As for slavery, that was a compromise.

So there was no ideal of freedom and anti authoritarianism, rather a stodgy pragmatism to oppress others for the sake of profit. Oh, okay, that is an American ideal, I'll give you that.

Dude, you are free to read anything you want since obviously know one can change your might unless you choose to do so. Good luck, sir.