Aborted fetus = Lucky bastard?

[Taomon]

How on earth does my believing something push my belief on a baby?

As I said, you all think it's okay to kill the "lucky bastard" but whoooooaaaaaa.....how DARE I presume to believe that by doing so you're actually damning it to hell.

You don't care, anyway. It's not really alive, and souls don't exist.

Still, I'll make the argument...my BELIEF that a baby is a human with a chance to attain heaven, if it's allowed to live long enough, is much less intrusive than the left's belief that it isn't human and therefore can live or die at the whim of the mother. I'm for giving the little tyke a chance. The left says they aren't alive, and don't deserve a chance unless the mom says so.

Who's forcing what on whom? My belief will preserve that child's life which is about as un-obtrusive as a person can get. While the other belief denies it's humanity, and allows its butchery.

You can't have it both ways.

Who are you to tell me what I believe in? Name one post where I announced that I do not believe in souls. I defy you to prove that I am an atheist.

You are the one who stated that aborted fetus' cannot go to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus. Not only is your claim callous, but you are announcing that your dogma has authority over us and we are wrong because of some archaic and inaccurate book called the Bible.

If you read the Bible, no where does it say that a baby who dies cannot go to heaven because he or she has not accepted Jesus. No where in that stupid book that you cling to. So where is that foolish belief coming from? Pat Robertson?

 

[Ravi]

A person who will keep a baby alive to afford it the opportunity to make up its own mind.

Two questions.

What if it dies despite heroic efforts...does it still go to hell?

How do you kill something that isn't born?

 

[Taomon]

A person who will keep a baby alive to afford it the opportunity to make up its own mind.

Regardless of the quality of life an unwanted child will suffer? Tell me, what steps have you taken to ensure loving homes for all unwanted children?

 

[AllieBaba]

Omg, here we go.

There is absolutely no evidence that abortion reduces the incidence of "unwanted children" or increases incidences of child abuse.

Didn't I just post this somewhere? That the tried, true and trite defense of abortion was "We have to have abortion to prevent child abuse, to reduce the incidence of unwanted and unloved children in the world, and how many children have you adopted and if you haven't adopted any then you have NO RIGHT to say it's wrong to abort!"

You morons read from the exact same script every time. You might jazz it up a little.

I can't believe people who don't believe the life of a fetus is sacred can even work themselves up to care what somebody believes of a soul you don't believe exists. It's okay to kill it, brutally...but not to believe that in doing so you are denying it a chance to obtain heaven? Talk about twisted.

"John 3:3-8: "'In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'

'How can a man be born when he is old?' Nicodemus asked. 'Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!'

Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.'" NIV

So maybe now you understand the reason the right wingers are so adamant that we not kill off babies willy-nilly.

 

[Care4all]

Google: No results found for "David's lost child"

Look up David and Basheeba, it was their child, which was conceived in an adulterous situation....and a murderous situation where King David had Basheeba's husband killed.

Care

 

[Dr Grump]

People who don't believe in souls shouldn't tax themselves with the complexity of belief. It doesn't, after all, matter to you.

Translation: I can't answer the question.

Carry on!

 

[jillian]

You have to google King David's lost child and you get

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

and a lot of other stuff.

 

[AllieBaba]

What question would that be? I imagine I've probably answered it already.

Even if it wasn't the answer you wanted. But that's a lefty thing. If you don't like the way it sounds, IGNORE it or make up something you do like!

 

[Care4all]

Omg, here we go.

There is absolutely no evidence that abortion reduces the incidence of "unwanted children" or increases incidences of child abuse.

Didn't I just post this somewhere? That the tried, true and trite defense of abortion was "We have to have abortion to prevent child abuse, to reduce the incidence of unwanted and unloved children in the world, and how many children have you adopted and if you haven't adopted any then you have NO RIGHT to say it's wrong to abort!"

You morons read from the exact same script every time. You might jazz it up a little.

I can't believe people who don't believe the life of a fetus is sacred can even work themselves up to care what somebody believes of a soul you don't believe exists. It's okay to kill it, brutally...but not to believe that in doing so you are denying it a chance to obtain heaven? Talk about twisted.

"John 3:3-8: "'In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'

'How can a man be born when he is old?' Nicodemus asked. 'Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!'

Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.'" NIV

So maybe now you understand the reason the right wingers are so adamant that we not kill off babies willy-nilly.

Yes and no.

Think about this... there were instances that Jesus also told us to be like children, and have faith as children.... don't have the time to research the passages where this is mentioned but just the gist of this implies that Children are innocent....don't you think?

I know Catholics believe you have to Baptize a baby immediately after it is born, to remove their original sin, so that if they die they go to heaven or something like that....? So, it is similar to the fundamentalists...

I will say though that many, many Christian Religions believe the child goes to heaven, even if not Baptized because the child IS innocent and unblemmished at that point.

care

 

[AllieBaba]

Jesus said over and over that the only way to heaven was through him. Not through innocence, and not through works.

When he tells us to be as children, he is referring to being childlike in our faith in God...not to be without faith as the unsaved innocents. Innocence is not the way we attain heaven.

 

[Taomon]

Omg, here we go.

There is absolutely no evidence that abortion reduces the incidence of "unwanted children" or increases incidences of child abuse.

Didn't I just post this somewhere? That the tried, true and trite defense of abortion was "We have to have abortion to prevent child abuse, to reduce the incidence of unwanted and unloved children in the world, and how many children have you adopted and if you haven't adopted any then you have NO RIGHT to say it's wrong to abort!"

You morons read from the exact same script every time. You might jazz it up a little.

I can't believe people who don't believe the life of a fetus is sacred can even work themselves up to care what somebody believes of a soul you don't believe exists. It's okay to kill it, brutally...but not to believe that in doing so you are denying it a chance to obtain heaven? Talk about twisted.

"John 3:3-8: "'In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'

'How can a man be born when he is old?' Nicodemus asked. 'Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!'

Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.'" NIV

So maybe now you understand the reason the right wingers are so adamant that we not kill off babies willy-nilly.

That is not what John 3:3-8 says. NIV? Is that a new version of the Bible?

Do yourself a favor and read the Qumran library, re-read Mark, pick up the Torah and read that. Maybe, just maybe, you will get a better idea of what you are talking about.

But let's talk logic for one second okay? Why are people getting abortions? Because they do not want to give birth to a baby. You can scream and yell about how they should not have sex and all, but the basic fact is that they did and do not want to give birth.

That is the definition of an unwanted child. A parent or parents who did not want to give birth to the child born of them.

Now, let's pretend that abortion is illegal. Let's pretend that people are forced to give birth to unwanted children. Maybe the kid will be put into an orphanage. Maybe the parents will come around and fall in love with the child...maybe. Or maybe that child will be neglected, pawned off to grandparents, abused or worse.

Your stance offers no solutions, just excuses and egotistically derived notions of superiority.

If you are truly sickened by abortion, if you truly want to do God's work, then offer viable solutions to eradicate the core problem of negligence. Start with education. All children should be taught sex ed, age appropriate, so they can understand the dangers and ramifications of having sex. Otherwise they will do it anyway. Abstinence programs are a complete sham.

Next, we must introduce sound social programs to care for and raise the unwanted children that will result from lack of abortions. And let's face the reality, making abortion illegal will just drive it underground, which causes more harm than good.

 

[Taomon]

Jesus said over and over that the only way to heaven was through him. Not through innocence, and not through works.

When he tells us to be as children, he is referring to being childlike in our faith in God...not to be without faith as the unsaved innocents. Innocence is not the way we attain heaven.

Sure it is. What loving God would condemn an innocent child?

 

[Dr Grump]

A person who will keep a baby alive to afford it the opportunity to make up its own mind.

And if it dies before it has the ability to make up its mind?

 

[Care4all]

Jesus said over and over that the only way to heaven was through him. Not through innocence, and not through works.

When he tells us to be as children, he is referring to being childlike in our faith in God...not to be without faith as the unsaved innocents.

Yes, if you are born....you have this opprtunity.

Jesus mentioned NOTHING regarding you dying before you are born....

if you have not been BORN yet, you do not have the opportunity to be BORN AGAIN.... well...because you haven't been BORN for the first time yet.

I don't believe for one nanosecond that the stillborn child or the aborted child goes to the burning fires of hell!

So, we will have to agree to disagree on this....

I am NOT justifying abortion though....fyi.

Care

 

[Dr Grump]

What question would that be? I imagine I've probably answered it already.

Even if it wasn't the answer you wanted. But that's a lefty thing. If you don't like the way it sounds, IGNORE it or make up something you do like!

Nope, you didn't answer it at all. Wasn't that far back on the thread and my last post addressed it again. You are just spinning because you know how ridiculous it makes your argument look. We can all see it. Never mind...as I said, carry on!!

 

[BrianH]

So you believe that only Christians go to heaven? So no matter how good a person is, they cannot go to heaven unless they are Christians? Do you think Gandhi was turned away at the Pearly Gates? How about Albert Einstein? Or Abraham Lincoln? Or Ben Franklin? Or Thomas Jefferson? The list goes on.

You cannot speak authoritatively about who God allows into heaven or what exactly Heaven is anymore than any other living human being.

But to respond to the topic of this thread...do you think that life now is better than being aborted? Take a good look around this world and answer that honestly. If you say that life is better than abortion, do not forget that the aborted fetus is an unwanted entity...and what kind of life are you pushing that entity into?

This would be best answered by DANTE'S INFERNO...Alot of Famous historical figures there. LOL.

I know some of you are non-believers, and that's ok. But in response to Allie's notion that babies go to hell because they have never accepted Jesus.

Jeremiah 1:5
"5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations"

1 John 2:12
"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. 13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father."

THese are just a couple of scriptures that are in the Bible, regarding babies and young children going to heaven. Here's the site.
http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/babys.htm

 

[The_Hammer]

I'll never understand how something that is unborn can be killed.

K you are confusing being born to being alive.

An amoeba is alive but it's not born.

Our individuals cells are alive but they weren't born. Well at least in the sense that you are considering (if I'm not mistaken).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/born

born

1. brought forth by birth.
2. possessing from birth the quality, circumstances, or character stated: a born musician; a born fool.
3. native to the locale stated; immigrated to the present place from the locale stated: a German-born scientist; a Chicago-born New Yorker.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/birth

birth

1. an act or instance of being born: the day of his birth.
2. the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition: a difficult birth.
3. lineage; extraction; descent: of Grecian birth.
4. high or noble lineage: to be foolishly vain about one's birth.
5. natural heritage: a musician by birth.
6. any coming into existence; origin; beginning: the birth of Protestantism; the birth of an idea.
7. Archaic. something that is born.
–verb (used with object) Chiefly South Midland and Southern U.S.
8. to give birth to.
9. to assist in giving birth; act as midwife for.

A fetus is most certainly alive. It feeds itself (thought parasitically) reproduces (it's cells reproduce) carries on all the functions necessary for life.

 

[BrianH]

K you are confusing being born to being alive.

An amoeba is alive but it's not born.

Our individuals cells are alive but they weren't born. Well at least in the sense that you are considering (if I'm not mistaken).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/born

born

1. brought forth by birth.
2. possessing from birth the quality, circumstances, or character stated: a born musician; a born fool.
3. native to the locale stated; immigrated to the present place from the locale stated: a German-born scientist; a Chicago-born New Yorker.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/birth

birth

1. an act or instance of being born: the day of his birth.
2. the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition: a difficult birth.
3. lineage; extraction; descent: of Grecian birth.
4. high or noble lineage: to be foolishly vain about one's birth.
5. natural heritage: a musician by birth.
6. any coming into existence; origin; beginning: the birth of Protestantism; the birth of an idea.
7. Archaic. something that is born.
–verb (used with object) Chiefly South Midland and Southern U.S.
8. to give birth to.
9. to assist in giving birth; act as midwife for.

A fetus is most certainly alive. It feeds itself (thought parasitically) reproduces (it's cells reproduce) carries on all the functions necessary for life.

Let me get this straight here. So because we are composed of living cells, a fetus, also made of living cells is alive? I've never looked at it that way. I never cared for abortion anyway. Of course, my parents had me in high school.

 

[The_Hammer]

Well if you're thinking about it from a scientific standpoint, yes our bodies are alive. Us the person (which may or may not include a soul) is alive mainly from our brain. We achieve sapience, sentience, and self awareness (the ability to make decisions beyond instinct, to think subjectively (in our head vs just directly decoding and active upon immediate sensory input) and self-awareness respectively) during our child and early developmental years. We the person don't start to develop until about the 8th month and mental development doesn't "finish" till adolescence.

 

[BrianH]

Well if you're thinking about it from a scientific standpoint, yes our bodies are alive. Us the person (which may or may not include a soul) is alive mainly from our brain. We achieve sapience, sentience, and self awareness (the ability to make decisions beyond instinct, to think subjectively (in our head vs just directly decoding and active upon immediate sensory input) and self-awareness respectively) during our child and early developmental years. We the person don't start to develop until about the 8th month and mental development doesn't "finish" till adolescence.

I agree completely. Of course, I learned this also in Early Childhood Devlopment. Glad to see someone else knows.