A Serious Question for Liberals - Tax Rates

[tooAlive]

Why? Because he earned that luxury.

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

If only more people understood this.

They think CEOs just sip on a martini all day, poolside, occasionally checking the Blackberry to see how his investments are doing.

 

[Jarhead]

So your response is assuming the business owner will KNOW FOR SURE that his return will be 30%.

What kind of math is that? If your investment returns 5%, it is still profitable. That profit might be taxed at 70%, yes, but so what? The investment was still good.

Becuase you are assuming a definite 5% return. Yes...if I knew FOR SURE that I would get a 5% return, I would do it regardless of the tax.

But that is fantasy

Every investemnt has a risk of failure.

Even in the most certain circumstances.

Letr me ask you this...

If yopu had 5000 dollars to spend...and you were told you can invest it in a company and your return will be 5%...but there is a 25% of losing it all....

Or...

You can put it in the bank for 3% and have zero risk of losing it....guaranteed 3%....

What would you do?

 

[ilia25]

Why? Because he earned that luxury.

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

Not in my experience! Having your own business gives you more freedom and more flexible schedule too. And and you don't have to be a business owner to work long hours or to lose sleep over a looming deadline.

So no, not buying that. There are hard working people out there, but no on works hard enough to justify 100 times the average salary.

 

[Jarhead]

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

If only more people understood this.

They think CEOs just sip on a martini all day, poolside, occasionally checking the Blackberry to see how his investments are doing.

They have CEO's confused with governemnt employees.

 

[tooAlive]

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

Well, if you think your business is that much more important than your family, perhaps you shouldn't be in business. A solid business manager would have somebody in his group that he could turn the business management over to for the few days it takes for important family events.

Considering the business fed his family, I'd say he did care about them quite a bit.

No offense, but you even stated your work history. Business isn't something you apparently know first hand.

 

[Old Rocks]

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

I know...I have been there.

My marriage struggled for the first few years I ran my first company...we were young....but we survived it.

I missed many of my sons football games....had to work on Saturdays.

Never went to my sons school plays...and I regret it now.

My employees?

They had their set vacation time...sick days/....personal days......berevement days......mental health days......

Me?

If I took any of them, the business would suffer.

You know, I have watched people like that. What would have suffered would have been your ego in that had you done those important family events, and arranged for someone in your company to take your place for that time, you would have had to realize that you were not that unique.

Yes, I know well what long hours mean. Worked for a year, 10 hours a day minimum, sometimes 17 hours a day, had only three days off, Thankgiving, Christmas, and New Years. But told the owner I would work that overtime to get the mill built, but at the end, was taking three weeks off with my family. Really didn't have any vacation time coming, but he paid me three weeks and a bonus to boot. And the mill ran just fine without me.

The best managers that I have worked for always had employees that they could trust to keep the business afloat while they attended to important family events. They understood the importance of family, for their employees, and, also, for them.

 

[ilia25]

Letr me ask you this...

If yopu had 5000 dollars to spend...and you were told you can invest it in a company and your return will be 5%...but there is a 25% of losing it all....

Or...

You can put it in the bank for 3% and have zero risk of losing it....guaranteed 3%....

What would you do?

The question is why would I do otherwise because I'm paying 70% tax at margin and not 35%?

 

[tooAlive]

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

Not in my experience! Having your own business gives you more freedom and more flexible schedule too. And and you don't have to be a business owner to work long hours or to lose sleep over a looming deadline.

So no, not buying that. There are hard working people out there, but no on works hard enough to justify 100 times the average salary.

Tell about your experience then. I'd love to hear how your business has given you so much freedom, and hasn't required much hours from you at all.

Tell us how much of a walk in the park owning your own business is.

 

[Jarhead]

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

Not in my experience! Having your own business gives you more freedom and more flexible schedule too. And and you don't have to be a business owner to work long hours or to lose sleep over a looming deadline.

So no, not buying that. There are hard working people out there, but no on works hard enough to justify 100 times the average salary.

you have never owned a business.

You have never been part of a start up.

I had no freedom for my first 4 or 5 years.....and as for flexible schedule......really? I was working 7 days a week.....for over 3 years.

Asd for the hard working people...there are plenty of them...and they do not earn 100 times less than the CEO's....they are paid for their talent...and actually deemed as the rich evil executives.

It is the ones that are wrapped up in their rights that are shit on...and rightfully so. They sit there and complain about their pay...and then come in late becuase the "bus was late"...and miss a day becduase "it snowed out...didntcha see?"....and they are allowed berevement days to go to their long lost aunts funeral....they shopw no dedication to anything but one thing..

THEIR PAYCHECK..

Word of advice.....

Those that are dedicated to the cause are well compensated...those that are dedicated to their paycheck are given CoL raises.

There are 2 types of employees....

1) those that look for valid reasons to not go to work
2) those that find ways to get to work.

Who do you think gets a nicer cut of the pie?

 

[tooAlive]

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

I know...I have been there.

My marriage struggled for the first few years I ran my first company...we were young....but we survived it.

I missed many of my sons football games....had to work on Saturdays.

Never went to my sons school plays...and I regret it now.

My employees?

They had their set vacation time...sick days/....personal days......berevement days......mental health days......

Me?

If I took any of them, the business would suffer.

You know, I have watched people like that. What would have suffered would have been your ego in that had you done those important family events, and arranged for someone in your company to take your place for that time, you would have had to realize that you were not that unique.

Yes, I know well what long hours mean. Worked for a year, 10 hours a day minimum, sometimes 17 hours a day, had only three days off, Thankgiving, Christmas, and New Years. But told the owner I would work that overtime to get the mill built, but at the end, was taking three weeks off with my family. Really didn't have any vacation time coming, but he paid me three weeks and a bonus to boot. And the mill ran just fine without me.

The best managers that I have worked for always had employees that they could trust to keep the business afloat while they attended to important family events. They understood the importance of family, for their employees, and, also, for them.

Rocks, when you're starting your own business, you don't always have someone to delegate important tasks to. Specially in the beginning.

And while you're right about having people you trust to do things for you, everything he said is true. That's pretty much how it goes when someone is getting the business off the ground. You need to be there 110%.

 

[ilia25]

By doing what exactly? Going to a good business school? -- yeah, that's a terrible sacrifice.

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

If only more people understood this.

They think CEOs just sip on a martini all day, poolside, occasionally checking the Blackberry to see how his investments are doing.

You are not living in reality if you think that it is a CEO who gets the raw deal, and not a guy working a low paying job.

 

[Old Rocks]

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

Well, if you think your business is that much more important than your family, perhaps you shouldn't be in business. A solid business manager would have somebody in his group that he could turn the business management over to for the few days it takes for important family events.

Considering the business fed his family, I'd say he did care about them quite a bit.

No offense, but you even stated your work history. Business isn't something you apparently know first hand.

Yes, I understand business very well. Well enough to know I have no talent in that direction. Well enough to have observed those that did, and realize that there were the obsesive ones that considered their talents so unique that the often destroyed themselves and their families by overwork. Well enough to have noted many of the most successful, owners or managers, arranged to have people in their organization that could assume the burden at a moments notice. That not only gave them time for their families, but protected the business in case of mishaps on their part.

One does not have to be a musician to appreciate music.

 

[rdean]

Whenever there's talk about tax rates and what the "fair share" should be for the wealthy to pay, there's always a few liberals that bring out the argument of how top marginal tax rates were as high as 94% back in 1944. This is true. They were also 91% back in 1946, and and 77% in 1964.

Now, assuming people actually payed those taxes back in the day. Here's my question;

Lets say we raised the top marginal tax rate for all income above $250k to 94%, just like they were back in the day.

If we have someone already earning $250k, what is their incentive to increase their earnings $100k for a total of $350k, if they'd only get see $6,000 of it?

Essentially only getting to keep 6 cents of every dollar earned over $250k.

Again, lets say the top marginal tax rate only affected income over $500k. What incentive would a person have to earn $600k, when in reality, they'd only see $6,000 of their newly earned income?

Taxing someone who makes a measly $250k a year at 94% is not a serious question. No one has even suggested we go back to rates that high.

If you want to be taken "seriously", then ask a truly "serious" question.

 

[Jarhead]

Letr me ask you this...

If yopu had 5000 dollars to spend...and you were told you can invest it in a company and your return will be 5%...but there is a 25% of losing it all....

Or...

You can put it in the bank for 3% and have zero risk of losing it....guaranteed 3%....

What would you do?

The question is why would I do otherwise because I'm paying 70% tax at margin and not 35%?

you are not paying attention.

5000 investrment....

your anticipated return is 10%...or 500 before taxes.

Your chance of losing it all is 20%

Now..if your tax is 35%...your return after tax is 325

If your tax is 70% your return is $150

Now...at a 20% chance of losing all 5000......a 325 return MAY be worth it.....But that is just a maybe wortth it......but a 150 return? Likely not worth risking 5000.

 

[Jarhead]

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

I know...I have been there.

My marriage struggled for the first few years I ran my first company...we were young....but we survived it.

I missed many of my sons football games....had to work on Saturdays.

Never went to my sons school plays...and I regret it now.

My employees?

They had their set vacation time...sick days/....personal days......berevement days......mental health days......

Me?

If I took any of them, the business would suffer.

You know, I have watched people like that. What would have suffered would have been your ego in that had you done those important family events, and arranged for someone in your company to take your place for that time, you would have had to realize that you were not that unique.

Yes, I know well what long hours mean. Worked for a year, 10 hours a day minimum, sometimes 17 hours a day, had only three days off, Thankgiving, Christmas, and New Years. But told the owner I would work that overtime to get the mill built, but at the end, was taking three weeks off with my family. Really didn't have any vacation time coming, but he paid me three weeks and a bonus to boot. And the mill ran just fine without me.

The best managers that I have worked for always had employees that they could trust to keep the business afloat while they attended to important family events. They understood the importance of family, for their employees, and, also, for them.

you can not tell me you started a business...

For a start up NEVER has managers in place ready to take over if I need to take a day off from day one.

Rarely do you have ANYONE you will trust with the company for the fisrt several years.

Heck, my first year, I profited 50K.....with NO MANAGERS....how the hell was I supposed to hire a manager who can take it over?

My second year, I made 75K......what was I to do? Pay a manager 40K and me make 35K?

No Old Rocks...you are full of shit. You never started a acompany. Most, if not all start ups do not have managers IN PLACE at the beginning.

You are full of it.

 

[ilia25]

No.

By having sleepless nights for the first few years of running the busioness.
By sacrificing family time and free time for the first several years.
By not having the luxury of vacation days and sick days and personal days for the fiorst few years.
By worrying about meeting payroll and venodr bills during a recession

By not being able to turn to the emnployee handbook and saying "I have my rights...I can take tomorrow off" when they heard that a relative died.

Not in my experience! Having your own business gives you more freedom and more flexible schedule too. And and you don't have to be a business owner to work long hours or to lose sleep over a looming deadline.

So no, not buying that. There are hard working people out there, but no on works hard enough to justify 100 times the average salary.

Tell about your experience then..

I have told you already. I have a few close friends who are business owners. They work hard, but it is easier for them to make time as well. And they are paid better, although not 10 times better.

 

[Jarhead]

Well, if you think your business is that much more important than your family, perhaps you shouldn't be in business. A solid business manager would have somebody in his group that he could turn the business management over to for the few days it takes for important family events.

Considering the business fed his family, I'd say he did care about them quite a bit.

No offense, but you even stated your work history. Business isn't something you apparently know first hand.

Yes, I understand business very well. Well enough to know I have no talent in that direction. Well enough to have observed those that did, and realize that there were the obsesive ones that considered their talents so unique that the often destroyed themselves and their families by overwork. Well enough to have noted many of the most successful, owners or managers, arranged to have people in their organization that could assume the burden at a moments notice. That not only gave them time for their families, but protected the business in case of mishaps on their part.

One does not have to be a musician to appreciate music.

My wife and I had a choice...I could start a business and put everything I had into it...oir continue to be someone leses money maker.

We knew there were sacrifices.

We accpeted them...and in the long run they paid off.

So do not sit there and type to me how bad an owner I was for not having a manager in place to take over...or how bad a family man I was....

You crossed the line Old Rocks.

To acheive success requires sacrifice.

Although now the mantra is....I want to share in your success WITHOUT tghe sacrifice.

 

[tooAlive]

I know...I have been there.

My marriage struggled for the first few years I ran my first company...we were young....but we survived it.

I missed many of my sons football games....had to work on Saturdays.

Never went to my sons school plays...and I regret it now.

My employees?

They had their set vacation time...sick days/....personal days......berevement days......mental health days......

Me?

If I took any of them, the business would suffer.

You know, I have watched people like that. What would have suffered would have been your ego in that had you done those important family events, and arranged for someone in your company to take your place for that time, you would have had to realize that you were not that unique.

Yes, I know well what long hours mean. Worked for a year, 10 hours a day minimum, sometimes 17 hours a day, had only three days off, Thankgiving, Christmas, and New Years. But told the owner I would work that overtime to get the mill built, but at the end, was taking three weeks off with my family. Really didn't have any vacation time coming, but he paid me three weeks and a bonus to boot. And the mill ran just fine without me.

The best managers that I have worked for always had employees that they could trust to keep the business afloat while they attended to important family events. They understood the importance of family, for their employees, and, also, for them.

you can not tell me you started a business...

For a start up NEVER has managers in place ready to take over if I need to take a day off from day one.

Rarely do you have ANYONE you will trust with the company for the fisrt several years.

Heck, my first year, I profited 50K.....with NO MANAGERS....how the hell was I supposed to hire a manager who can take it over?

My second year, I made 75K......what was I to do? Pay a manager 40K and me make 35K?

No Old Rocks...you are full of shit. You never started a acompany. Most, if not all start ups do not have managers IN PLACE at the beginning.

You are full of it.

They just have no idea what it takes to start a company from the ground up.

 

[Jarhead]

Not in my experience! Having your own business gives you more freedom and more flexible schedule too. And and you don't have to be a business owner to work long hours or to lose sleep over a looming deadline.

So no, not buying that. There are hard working people out there, but no on works hard enough to justify 100 times the average salary.

Tell about your experience then..

I have told you already. I have a few close friends who are business owners. They work hard, but it is easier for them to make time as well. And they are paid better, although not 10 times better.

So you are telling me that you knew them when they started their companies...and they were able to make free time for themsleves back then?

Hint...if you say yes...then we will ALL know you are full of it.

 

[Jarhead]

You know, I have watched people like that. What would have suffered would have been your ego in that had you done those important family events, and arranged for someone in your company to take your place for that time, you would have had to realize that you were not that unique.

Yes, I know well what long hours mean. Worked for a year, 10 hours a day minimum, sometimes 17 hours a day, had only three days off, Thankgiving, Christmas, and New Years. But told the owner I would work that overtime to get the mill built, but at the end, was taking three weeks off with my family. Really didn't have any vacation time coming, but he paid me three weeks and a bonus to boot. And the mill ran just fine without me.

The best managers that I have worked for always had employees that they could trust to keep the business afloat while they attended to important family events. They understood the importance of family, for their employees, and, also, for them.

you can not tell me you started a business...

For a start up NEVER has managers in place ready to take over if I need to take a day off from day one.

Rarely do you have ANYONE you will trust with the company for the fisrt several years.

Heck, my first year, I profited 50K.....with NO MANAGERS....how the hell was I supposed to hire a manager who can take it over?

My second year, I made 75K......what was I to do? Pay a manager 40K and me make 35K?

No Old Rocks...you are full of shit. You never started a acompany. Most, if not all start ups do not have managers IN PLACE at the beginning.

You are full of it.

They just have no idea what it takes to start a company from the ground up.

No...they dont.....and they might not realize it...but they are showing us exactly how little they know about it.

Sure...a smart owner with a start up will have manmagers in place to take the helm so the owner can go see his klid play a tree in Peter Pan.

LOL...you have to be kidding me.