A Serious Question for Liberals - Tax Rates

[akelch]

I'm inclined to go this route as well.

Tax what one spends...not what they earn.....the wealthy will pay plenty and the middle class can make a choice.

I always liked the idea.

That's truly the only "fair" method of taxation I can think of.

It would however eliminate the need for the IRS.

I have stopped debating the current tax system....it's pointless.
Switch the debate to a real solution.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Whenever there's talk about tax rates and what the "fair share" should be for the wealthy to pay, there's always a few liberals that bring out the argument of how top marginal tax rates were as high as 94% back in 1944. This is true. They were also 91% back in 1946, and and 77% in 1964.

Now, assuming people actually payed those taxes back in the day. Here's my question;

Lets say we raised the top marginal tax rate for all income above $250k to 94%, just like they were back in the day.

If we have someone already earning $250k, what is their incentive to increase their earnings $100k for a total of $350k, if they'd only get see $6,000 of it?

Essentially only getting to keep 6 cents of every dollar earned over $250k.

Again, lets say the top marginal tax rate only affected income over $500k. What incentive would a person have to earn $600k, when in reality, they'd only see $6,000 of their newly earned income?

paid

Let's just raise it to 40%.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

Get rid of income tax, capital gains tax, payroll tax and replace it with HR 25 consumption tax.....ready to voted on.

I'm inclined to go this route as well.

not sure that this would solve any problems. you would effectively be increasing the amount of taxes that the lower and middle class pay, as they are the largest consumer of goods and services, and you would then be lowering the amount that high income earners pay as they consume less. the overall affect would be that low income earners rate would creep toward 30% and high earners rate would decrease significantly.

 

[Jarhead]

I think that is the case -- a talent is something you are born with. And the last thing I need from you is an advice on how to become successful.



I don't say we have to tax the CEOs. I said we need 70% tax on incomes above 500K.

First..I was not offering you advice on how to be successful. It would be irresponsible to offer such advice without knowing anything about you....but you are wrong...a talent is something you develop....you know...practice...trial and error....

Curious...you say 70%....why that exact number? What do you base it on? Why not 60% or 80%....why not 300K or 650K?

70% on income above 500K....what do you base that on?

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/diamond-saezJEP11opttax.pdf

And I disagree -- you cannot develop a talent. You can develop skills and learn how to use the talents you are born with. Most people earning big money are lucky to be born with the right sets of talents.

funny thing...I was not a very talented business owner...even Old Rocks pointed that out to me. But over the years, I learned.....and ironically.....My second company was a business plannung coinsulting firm...and THAT is where I made my killing.

 

[ilia25]

But you're not risking anything by having the bank invest it for you.

My point, tooAlive, is that high taxes do not slow down investment or consumption. If some people would choose not to invest their money, then someone else will do it for them.

True...but a flawed premise as it pertains to the US.

Having someone else invest my money is by no means the same as using my money to start a company...or exapnd my company.

You see...it is all about what makes the US great and why people come to the US to start a business....make it not worth my while, and I wont...and yes, I will put it in the bank, and Citibank will invest it in the solar panel company in China....

Do you see where I am going?

DO you prefer your neighbor starts a company or a Chinese company getting a larger peice of the world market?

Economy is not working that way. Everyone is trying to maximize profits. If investing in China is more profitable than investing in your own company, then you should invest in China. And that's fine.

 

[ilia25]

Thank you. I will read this evening and give you my thoughts.

You are welcome.

 

[tooAlive]

Get rid of income tax, capital gains tax, payroll tax and replace it with HR 25 consumption tax.....ready to voted on.

I'm inclined to go this route as well.

not sure that this would solve any problems. you would effectively be increasing the amount of taxes that the lower and middle class pay, as they are the largest consumer of goods and services, and you would then be lowering the amount that high income earners pay as they consume less. the overall affect would be that low income earners rate would creep toward 30% and high earners rate would decrease significantly.

Where do you get the idea that poor people consume more than rich people?

A fair and flat tax on consumption is really the only "fair" method of taxation there is.

 

[tooAlive]

Thank you. I will read this evening and give you my thoughts.

You are welcome.

By the way, what country are you from?

I'm just curious.

 

[KissMy]

I have stopped debating the current tax system....it's pointless.
Switch the debate to a real solution.

The solution is easy. Switch the dividend rate back above the earnings rate, get rid of all deductions including charities, offshore accounts, close loopholes & ENFORCE the tax rate on the rich.

Currently the rich use the tax code to prey upon the rest of us stripping us of our earnings. Unless they ACTUALLY pay a higher percent than us, they are preying on us. This country went to hell when the dividend tax rate was cut & the rich were allowed to evade more taxes.

The rich have used the tax code to steal all the wealth we have created.

Mitt Romney paid lower tax rates than people in poverty pay. He never donated a dime. His "charitable donations" are a tax shelters that allowed him to avoid all taxes & lawsuits. He is preying on charities along with stealing pension funds from workers. His supporters are stupid pawns who will never even be able to understand how charitable remainder trust & carried interest work. Or how they use the dividend tax loopholes to avoid paying taxes on real earnings.

There is not enough time in the day to educate all the stupid voters in this country in the ways all the tax accountants hired by the rich screw us. The rich use money to hire us to screw ourselves. In Romney's case he used our money to hire us to screw ourselves.

Many of us know how this is done. It's just that we are not crewel & greedy enough to actually screw our fellow citizens like the rich do.

 

[Pheonixops]

Whenever there's talk about tax rates and what the "fair share" should be for the wealthy to pay, there's always a few liberals that bring out the argument of how top marginal tax rates were as high as 94% back in 1944. This is true. They were also 91% back in 1946, and and 77% in 1964.

Now, assuming people actually payed those taxes back in the day. Here's my question;

Lets say we raised the top marginal tax rate for all income above $250k to 94%, just like they were back in the day.

If we have someone already earning $250k, what is their incentive to increase their earnings $100k for a total of $350k, if they'd only get see $6,000 of it?

Essentially only getting to keep 6 cents of every dollar earned over $250k.

Again, lets say the top marginal tax rate only affected income over $500k. What incentive would a person have to earn $600k, when in reality, they'd only see $6,000 of their newly earned income?

Flat tax.

 

[ilia25]

First..I was not offering you advice on how to be successful. It would be irresponsible to offer such advice without knowing anything about you....but you are wrong...a talent is something you develop....you know...practice...trial and error....

Curious...you say 70%....why that exact number? What do you base it on? Why not 60% or 80%....why not 300K or 650K?

70% on income above 500K....what do you base that on?

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/diamond-saezJEP11opttax.pdf

And I disagree -- you cannot develop a talent. You can develop skills and learn how to use the talents you are born with. Most people earning big money are lucky to be born with the right sets of talents.

funny thing...I was not a very talented business owner...even Old Rocks pointed that out to me. But over the years, I learned.....and ironically.....My second company was a business plannung coinsulting firm...and THAT is where I made my killing.

Experience is important. One should be rewarded for working hard at getting that experience -- and that is true for any hard work.

My problem is with people taking home millions after taxes. They are not evil, but they are rewarded too generously.

 

[tooAlive]

I have stopped debating the current tax system....it's pointless.
Switch the debate to a real solution.

The solution is easy. Switch the dividend rate back above the earnings rate, get rid of all deductions including charities, offshore accounts, close loopholes & ENFORCE the tax rate on the rich.

Currently the rich use the tax code to prey upon the rest of us stripping us of our earnings. Unless they ACTUALLY pay a higher percent than us, they are preying on us. This country went to hell when the dividend tax rate was cut & the rich were allowed to evade more taxes.

The rich have used the tax code to steal all the wealth we have created.

Here's a better avatar for you.

Your post wreaks of envy and jealousy.. I can't imagine how life must be with an outlook like that.

 

[tooAlive]

And how on earth are the wealthy using the tax system to steal from you? How do they strip you of your earnings?

I'd like to know how much you paid in taxes last year.

See, lowering taxes for someone doesn't mean they're stealing from you. It means they get to keep more of what they earned.

On the other hand, you wanting to raise taxes on the wealthy would indicate that you are stealing from them. So it seems you have everything backwards. That, or you're just a hypocrite.

 

[KissMy]

I have stopped debating the current tax system....it's pointless.
Switch the debate to a real solution.

The solution is easy. Switch the dividend rate back above the earnings rate, get rid of all deductions including charities, offshore accounts, close loopholes & ENFORCE the tax rate on the rich.

Currently the rich use the tax code to prey upon the rest of us stripping us of our earnings. Unless they ACTUALLY pay a higher percent than us, they are preying on us. This country went to hell when the dividend tax rate was cut & the rich were allowed to evade more taxes.

The rich have used the tax code to steal all the wealth we have created.

Here's a better avatar for you.

Do communist use GSE's to bail out the rich's bad investments? Or bail-out the largest banks to protect the rich who have accounts in excess of the FDIC $100k insurance limit? NO! - The shit we have now is worse than communism. Communism would be a huge step up from the group of plutocrats currently screwing us every-time we take our eye off of them focus on our work creating wealth advancing civilization.

The rich use the tax code to redistribute the wealth of the working man to the top 10%. It is unfortunate that you are to stupid to understand how it works.

 

[tooAlive]

The solution is easy. Switch the dividend rate back above the earnings rate, get rid of all deductions including charities, offshore accounts, close loopholes & ENFORCE the tax rate on the rich.

Currently the rich use the tax code to prey upon the rest of us stripping us of our earnings. Unless they ACTUALLY pay a higher percent than us, they are preying on us. This country went to hell when the dividend tax rate was cut & the rich were allowed to evade more taxes.

The rich have used the tax code to steal all the wealth we have created.

Here's a better avatar for you.

Do communist use GSE's to bail out the rich's bad investments? Or bail-out the largest banks to protect the rich who have accounts in excess of the FDIC $100k insurance limit? NO! - The shit we have now is worse than communism. Communism would be a huge step up from the group of plutocrats currently screwing us every-time we take our eye off of them focus on our work advancing civilization.

Since you asked, I'm against those enormous government bailouts as much as you are.

But the fact that you go as far as to say that communism is a huge step up from what we have now tells me you have no idea what you're talking about. None.

 

[Ravi]

There are plenty of liberals on here who have mentioned the '40's top tax rates and implied that people did just fine with them.

If you haven't, then this post wasn't aimed toward you.

That's something different then. With all the deductions, people back then DID do fine with those rates. Because no one actually paid them.

It doesn't matter if I've said it or not, you are passing off falsehoods as truths.

Yet another reason Republicans lost the election.

That's usually what us righties reply to one of those posts.

Even mentioning the 94% tax rates is pointless because nobody actually paid them. Liberals never mention that when talking about those high rates.. Their point is usually trying to prove that there is a correlation between outrageously high taxes and economic growth.

Also, liberals tend to be against all those deductions the wealthy take advantage of.

None of those posts exist so how exactly are you replying to them? Aside from in your head, that is.

 

[Ravi]

LOL @ the doofus calling KissMy a commie.

 

[tooAlive]

Currently the rich use the tax code to prey upon the rest of us stripping us of our earnings. Unless they ACTUALLY pay a higher percent than us, they are preying on us

They already do.

They pay a far higher percentage than you. In fact, 20% of them pay for 70% of all federal taxes.

You and your 80% are only accountable for 30%. So in reality, you're the ones preying on them.

 

[jillian]

LOL @ the doofus calling KissMy a commie.

i know... how unaware does one have to be to do that?

lol

 

[Care4all]

And how on earth are the wealthy using the tax system to steal from you? How do they strip you of your earnings?

I'd like to know how much you paid in taxes last year.

See, lowering taxes for someone doesn't mean they're stealing from you. It means they get to keep more of what they earned.

On the other hand, you wanting to raise taxes on the wealthy would indicate that you are stealing from them. So it seems you have everything backwards. That, or you're just a hypocrite.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTBt5APga7Q]Ronald Reagan: Close Unproductive Tax Loopholes - YouTube[/ame]