A serious question about Jewish history

[Toronado3800]

My guess is based on the Jews being a minority in Catholic then Christian Europe.

Nothing more, nothing less.

This is true even in Christian America.

Now throw them into a confusing geographical battle in the modern middle east and rub them against Muslims and you have more problems.

I do always think of Jews and Native Americans as getting the short end of the stick (Poland also). But is there a religous minority in Europe who have had an easier time? In America?

 

[sealadaigh]

I think it's because they are smarter. Bred that way for millennia, fully 17 points average IQ difference in America alone (actually, the American difference is highest -- probably reflecting the fact that the smartest immigrated, especially during the 1930s in Germany). (ref: "The Bell Curve," by Herrenstein and Murray.)

Being smarter results in a lot of problems for a society when Jews stop being restricted by law or common agreement in the culture.

Germany stopped the laws against Jewish employment in 1875, IIRC, and that resulted in a rapid replacement of native Germans in universities and medicine and corporations and the arts. And so Germany changed from highly tolerant in 1900 to the very angry "Jews Are the Enemy" attitude of the 1930s.

The same thing has happened here --- Jews dominate the higher intellectual ranks of all employment -- but we have so far been accepting of that.

117 IQ is a HUGE difference from average 100 in terms of how well a population does. Obviously 117 by itself is not enough to work at a high level: that requires upper 120s at the least. But the higher the average, the more people available in a population that have much higher IQs. That's what is going on. The proportion of people who have the IQ to become doctors is just much higher in Jews because they start at a higher population average IQ.

This causes envy; I suspect envy is at least equal to xenophobia in being a problem for outgroups in societies. Nobody envies the poor underclass, so there is less prejudice against blacks and Hispanics, overall. People are prejudiced against the crime and don't like them looking different, but there is no envy.

maybe if the blacks and mexicans weren't so lazy and shiftless, they could ascend to the upper echelons of society like jewish people and then they would feel the full wrath of bigotry, doncha think? damn darkie convicts.

so, let me get this straight...there is no anti-semitism. there is anti-smart peopleism.

 

[sealadaigh]

My guess is based on the Jews being a minority in Catholic then Christian Europe.

Nothing more, nothing less.

This is true even in Christian America.

Now throw them into a confusing geographical battle in the modern middle east and rub them against Muslims and you have more problems.

I do always think of Jews and Native Americans as getting the short end of the stick (Poland also). But is there a religous minority in Europe who have had an easier time? In America?

i keep reading about thriving, prosperous, and well accepted jewish communities in the mideast and north africa before the advent of zionism. maybe it isn't aabout religious beliefs.

my understanding is that chanukkah is a minor holiday in judaism and the big ones are yom kippur and passover? kind of like the major christian holidays are christmas and easter?

 

[Indofred]

I've been a little too busy with work related stuff to do as much research as I want on this tread but I've bookmarked it for a time when I have.
I intend to find out as much as I can about the general social situation and that regarding Jews in the areas where massacres and so on took place.
That way, I hope to see if there were any common factors before each incidence.
As for Zionism/Israel, that may well be at least a partial cause to today's hate but it doesn't do much to explain the problems of old.

Working when I get time but I may be starting to lecture on new social studies course so I have to bone up on the course work before decide whether to take the seat or not.

 

[there4eyeM]

" ANY excuse for attacking a minority who maintain their 'difference' is a good one."

Well, not 'good', but obviously sufficient.

 

[MHunterB]

True.

(lipush's response to a statement by circe that jews are smarter than gentiles.)

perhaps jews are disliked and chased ot of places because their culture teaches their children to colossally arrogant, resulting in the belief that they are smarter or in other ways superior.

and the post by circe also referred to "the bell curve" theory of intelligence. LOL...now, were i a black person reading that, i would probably not be too fond of jewish people. here they are complaining about bigotry and lending credence to the "bell curve".

Except that 'their culture' does not teach any such thing. The colossal arrogance can be found in the minds of those non-Jews who refuse to believe ay Jewish posters' words on this topic even when a wide range of Jewish people are unanimous in denying that common slander.

I don't know what else to call it but 'colossal arrogance' when people 'outside' choose to elevate their own *feelings* over the experiences of so many 'inside'..... it's like people still insisting that 'blacks are so often poor because they're lazy', or something similar.

 

[novasteve]

There was an upswing in antisemitism after Oliver Twist came out.

 

[MHunterB]

The problem with IQ tests is that the one thing we are sure they measure is 'performance on IQ tests' - and not necessarily 'raw IQ'.

An array of factors goes into 'performance' which has nothing to do with actual IQ: test bias, cultural bias, learning 'disabilities' (which may or may not be simply different-from-dominant patterns of reasoning) - and the fact that there are something like 9 'intelligences' which tend to interact in many instances.

And then there is the question of 'motivation': in some circles, academic success is considered 'uncool'. Some 50+ years ago, girls were still 'taught' by peer pressure and popular culture that being 'good at math' was not 'feminine'..... Even after the US was shocked by Sputnik overhead, it STILL was 'uncool' for a girl to be smarter than the guy who was dating her. (Thank You, GOD, for giving me to a father who had the sense to teach me to ignore that crap!!!)

How many apparent IQ points is it going to be worth, to be raised in a home and a milieu where critical thinking is highly valued and academic excellence is a particular goal?

How many apparent IQ points does it shave off, to be raised in a home and milieu where being 'cool' according to the standards of 'pop culture' is a particular goal?

 

[arKangel]

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SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

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Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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yeppers,
The jews are the chosen ones! They are beyond reproach and are the most perfect of all people ever to exist!

Why, anyone who doesn't accept the divine supremacy of the jews must be someone who *gasp* hates!

--

Sarcasm aside...

Hate?
What hate?

A better question should be:
Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?


Historically speaking - strangers never have good intentions. Strangers invade to loot, rape, murder, and enslave. People throughout history have been absolutely justified in resistance to foreign invaders. Pretending otherwise is pure intellectual dishonesty.


By the way, comparing the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to "crap time" is quite an anti-Christian thing to say.

Jews have tried to mix and blend in with the rest of the community in many states they were in, but they got the brush off.

Wanna say, you're not making any sense in your statement.

Blatantly refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior in a Christian land you are invading, is somehow "blending in"?

Surely you jest.

 

[arKangel]

The problem with IQ tests is that the one thing we are sure they measure is 'performance on IQ tests' - and not necessarily 'raw IQ'.

An array of factors goes into 'performance' which has nothing to do with actual IQ: test bias, cultural bias, learning 'disabilities' (which may or may not be simply different-from-dominant patterns of reasoning) - and the fact that there are something like 9 'intelligences' which tend to interact in many instances.

And then there is the question of 'motivation': in some circles, academic success is considered 'uncool'. Some 50+ years ago, girls were still 'taught' by peer pressure and popular culture that being 'good at math' was not 'feminine'..... Even after the US was shocked by Sputnik overhead, it STILL was 'uncool' for a girl to be smarter than the guy who was dating her. (Thank You, GOD, for giving me to a father who had the sense to teach me to ignore that crap!!!)

How many apparent IQ points is it going to be worth, to be raised in a home and a milieu where critical thinking is highly valued and academic excellence is a particular goal?

How many apparent IQ points does it shave off, to be raised in a home and milieu where being 'cool' according to the standards of 'pop culture' is a particular goal?

I.Q. tests were designed to help place children in the right curriculum. Even the first designers of such tests acknowledged that they were essentially jabberwocky.

I have thanked God more times than I can remember that my wife has a calculator in her head. Even though she was raised to believe that her "IQ" was inherently lower because of her gender, she still uses her mind... Praise to Christ! she rejects such indoctrination.

 

[Indofred]

Hate?
What hate?

A better question should be:
Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?

That isn't really very helpful.
There is no evidence offered; just an unsupported opinion so it's not up to much.
I assume you're attempting to say; "Jews get up peoples' noses because they're just so convinced they're right about everything".
There may be an element of truth in there somewhere but it's hardly likely to cause mass murder, more getting slightly pissed off with someone and not inviting them to parties.

 

[Indofred]

most "strangers" eventually assimilate and become integral and working parts of the mainstream culture. jews are not particularly remakable in appearance or any other physical aspects that would make them stand out as strangers in many of the places they have been shunned.

i mean, look at the muslims in europe, theey are well on their way to becoming accepted after perhaps a generation but jews are still being discriminated against after over 2000 years, or so they claim.

could it be their culture? cultures inculcate certain behaviours and values among its members.

I disagree.
Many Muslims populations in Europe are living in Muslim ghettos and are more than hated and feared around the areas they live in.
My own home town has this very problem of a closed society living within a greater population and that population feeling unsafe in the Muslim areas.
If the Jews of old lived in similar conditions, it may well explain at least some of the problems.

 

[Indofred]

There was an upswing in antisemitism after Oliver Twist came out.

That's an interesting post.

The Jewish Population of Victorian England

"In 1800, the overwhelming majority of London's Jews, rich and poor, were still living in the East End of London, in and around the city" (Black 63). Not until decades later would Jews move out of the East End and move outwards from London and form their own communities. East End was the complete opposite of West End London. Black describes " a great part of the East End in gloomily picturesque panorama. The angular meanness of the buildings is veiled [with] the dusk" (Black 63). Similar to a ghetto and being the poorer side of town, it perpetuated the stereotype that the Jewish population consisted of shady people.

That' if accurate, suggest a parallel between modern British Muslim populations' living conditions and those of Jews in Victorian England.
There seems to be similar dislike of the two groups so it's a possible theory.

 

[editec]

I've been a little too busy with work related stuff to do as much research as I want on this tread but I've bookmarked it for a time when I have.
I intend to find out as much as I can about the general social situation and that regarding Jews in the areas where massacres and so on took place.
That way, I hope to see if there were any common factors before each incidence.
As for Zionism/Israel, that may well be at least a partial cause to today's hate but it doesn't do much to explain the problems of old.

Working when I get time but I may be starting to lecture on new social studies course so I have to bone up on the course work before decide whether to take the seat or not.

I think what you'll find is that the only common thread between the various histories of antiSemetism in Europe is that Jews were NOT considered true citizens and members of the greater society in which they lived.

They were, therefore, convenient scapegoats to explain hard times, or the King's screwups.

Remember that most of the time the JEWS were considered "the Kings guests" in a country, so their treatment by the rest of society could change at the whim of the monarch.

 

[Sunni Man]

On another thread I once stated that greed was in the hebrew DNA.

(Avarice would have been a better word to use)

If you read the Torah it says that Abraham was the wealthiest man of his time; same with Soloman, King David, and other chosen people notables. So yes, it is in their psyche, if not their biology

That being said, the Jews have a pejorative tendency to put themselves in societal positions to control their host nations money and economy.

It's been that way since Joseph was sold into slavey by his brothers and eventually ended up being Pharaohs head man in charge of Egypt's treasury.


And you can see that behavior right here in the U.S.

Just look at the last names of the heads of the top financial institutions or the heads of the Federal Reserve.


Anyway, once the "Chosen People" have an iron grip on their host nation's economy.

They start trying to destroy the customs and traditions of that nation to better position themselves. So they enter politics and the judicial system in order to help make the laws and give them even more power.

This behavior is easily evidenced right here in America. Just look at the leadership of any group advocating change of social morals and values; feminism, gay rights agenda, teachers unions, redefining marriage, etc. The heads of the advocating group or organization will most likely be a Jew.


This behavior follows the hebrew people no matter what country naively allows them to enter their land and set up shop.

After many years; eventually the indigenous people of the host country discover they are no longer in control of their nation, or their cultural destiny, and demand change. And drive the Jews out of their land. So the Jews seek another host country to give them refuge and start the process again.

This same senario has played out many times over many centuries..........

 

[Votto]

Hate?
What hate?

A better question should be:
Why is it when someone does not accept the divine supremacy of the jews (or any other group for the matter), it is called "hate"?

That isn't really very helpful.
There is no evidence offered; just an unsupported opinion so it's not up to much.
I assume you're attempting to say; "Jews get up peoples' noses because they're just so convinced they're right about everything".
There may be an element of truth in there somewhere but it's hardly likely to cause mass murder, more getting slightly pissed off with someone and not inviting them to parties.

I'll cut right to the chase. The reason that the Jews are hated, at least the major one, is that they are successful. It's called envy.

I won't bore you with web sites showing incomes of Jews to other minorities. Just know that they are at the top and seem to have been since the early days of persecution.

Just ask the Occupy Wall Street types who point to the Jewish Bankers as the source of all their woes. Ironnically, this Marxist type of thinking was generated by a Jew, Karl Marx.

Hitler also tapped into this class envy as he heavily taxed the top 4% of the nation and then simply took all the Jewish money for himself. Countries that they were forced to leave even had their economies suffer significantly from it. For some coveting is a virtue.

But it's just not money they are good at making. Just google how many Jews have won a Nobel Prize. They seem to have cornered the market on brain power. Bibilically the Jews are said to be a blessing for the rest of the world, however, according to others they are a curse because they tend to be more successful in life. I suppose most would fall into one or the other camp. Just know that Jew hatred is as alive and well today as it has ever been. Some things never change.

 

[MHunterB]

Edictec's observations were spot on.

And Sunni's 'comments' provide us with proof of that accuracy:

"On another thread I once stated that greed was in the hebrew DNA.

(Avarice would have been a better word to use)

If you read the Torah it says that Abraham was the wealthiest man of his time; same with Soloman, King David, and other chosen people notables. So yes, it is in their psyche, if not their biology

That being said, the Jews have a pejorative tendency to put themselves in societal positions to control their host nations money and economy."

 

[Indofred]

I can accept DNA giving someone a large nose or facial features that may well be common in a given group but I would find it harder to accept that as a cause of greed.
There is no arguement, there are very rich Jewish bankers but does that transfer to the whole population?
Stereotypes aren't evidence.
Moving on, if the theory of Jewish take over of the host is true, you should provide evidence of this in every case of serious assault on a Jewish population.

 

[Sunni Man]

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250


YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nazi Controlled Areas
1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries

 

[t_polkow]

Another reason for the hate I Believe has to do with the christian bible

The charge against "the Jews" permeates the pages of the" New Testament". In the Gospel of Matthew, Pilate literally washes his hands while "all the people" - all the Jewish people - clamour for Jesus's death: "Let him be crucified ... His blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27.23, 27).

John's Gospel indentifies the Jews as "from your father the devil" (John 8.44) and blames them for backing Pilate into a corner and forcing him to kill an innocent man.

In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter charges "the entire house of Israel" (Acts 2.36) with crucifying Jesus and so having "killed the Author of life" (Acts 3.14-15). Paul then bluntly refers to "the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 2.14-15).

Perhaps this vilification of the Jewih Population was inevitable. Jesus's followers could not understand how the vast majority of Jews could not accept their belief in him as the Messiah.