A Necessity, NOT A Luxury

[dblack]

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.

For the better part of the human race's existence we did not have health care and we still managed to become the dominant species.

Bullshit. For all of human history we have had medicine men who didn't need a license to practice or to dispense of medicine. Less than a hundred years ago you could go out and freely buy weed, cocaine and heroin. Now you can't even buy allergy pills without showing your driver license.

 

[dblack]

Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.

For the better part of the human race's existence we did not have health care and we still managed to become the dominant species.

Bullshit. For all of human history we have had medicine men who didn't need a license to practice or to dispense of medicine. Less than a hundred years ago you could go out and freely buy weed, cocaine and heroin. Now you can't even buy allergy pills without showing your driver license.

!!! Yep. That's the crux of it, right there.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

For the first time in American history the average life expectancy has begun to decline for certain demographics, namely, the poor.

 

[DriftingSand]

Capitalism at it's best...

And Obama seized the opportunity to "capitalize" on it.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

Unless the government is going to legalize access to all drugs without a script, and remove licensing requirements for caregivers, then they have an obligation to provide medical care to those who cannot afford it because of the restrictions imposed by the government.

 

[DriftingSand]

Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.

For the better part of the human race's existence we did not have health care and we still managed to become the dominant species.

I simply don't go to the doctor (even though I've been medically insured for decades). If and when it gets to the point that I must go deep into debt just to keep breathing I'll simply stop breathing. We all gotta die sooner or later. It may as well be sooner than later. The last thing I want for myself is to be stuck in a wheelchair drooling all over myself in the corner of some old-folks home.

 

[dblack]

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

Unless the government is going to legalize access to all drugs without a script, and remove licensing requirements for caregivers, then they have an obligation to provide medical care to those who cannot afford it because of the restrictions imposed by the government.

Which is why libertarians argue against such restrictions. Going down that road inevitably ends up with government providing (ie controlling) every-damned-thing.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

I do not agree that health care is a necessity as you say.

It is a modern convenience that is all.

And most people do pay for their own insurance now don't they? So they are paying for their own health care.

But if you really want to lower the cost of health care services then allow market forces to come to bear.

Let people shop around for their health care services.

FYI - Insurance does NOT pay the entire cost. Even the best insurance plan requires out-of-pocket payments. Also, the market is dictating cost. And, yes, health care is a necessity. How many people can set bones, do open heart surgery on themselves, and stitch up their own open wounds? It is very much a necessity. I pay my insurance premiums, but my insurance doesn't cover all of the cost. It's still very expensive for me to get health care. I have Cigna major medical coverage, and I have Medicare. And, no everyone can afford coverage like I have. In order to lower cost, pharmaceuticals, clinics, labs, hospitals, and doctors would have to lower their charges. Otherwise, the cost will continue to soar out of control. The market right now is rigged in favor of the health care industry. John Q. Public has no say-so when it comes to what a doctor charges. It is a necessity that we can't provide for ourselves.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

 

[dblack]

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

 

[Jackinthebox]

Which is why libertarians argue against such restrictions. Going down that road inevitably ends up with government providing (ie controlling) every-damned-thing.

I think we can find some middle ground. Certainly ground far away from how much government we have today, but I am not an anarchist either. For instance, I would agree with licensing for doctors, but not criminal penalty for practicing without a license.

 

[Jackinthebox]

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Even if you pay all of your own medical bills straight out of pocket and in full, hospitals, ambulances, and most of the healthcare system are still subsidized. Without those subsidies, you would not have the service to pay for in the first place at this point.

 

[DriftingSand]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life? Is it wrong to believe that when it's time to go that it's time to go? As sad as the death of a loved one is, it happens to be an inevitable fact of life.

 

[dblack]

Which is why libertarians argue against such restrictions. Going down that road inevitably ends up with government providing (ie controlling) every-damned-thing.

I think we can find some middle ground. Certainly ground far away from how much government we have today, but I am not an anarchist either. For instance, I would agree with licensing for doctors, but not criminal penalty for practicing without a license.

How about no penalty at all? Why shouldn't people be allowed to take the risk of using an unlicensed practitioner if they want?

 

[Jackinthebox]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life? Is it wrong to believe that when it's time to go that it's time to go? As sad as the death of a loved one is, it happens to be an inevitable fact of life.

That's not up to you to decide for someone else. My little cousin had open heart surgery when she was 12. She leads a happy healthy life now and will live to a ripe old age, barring some accident or other disease onset of course.

 

[Sonny Clark]

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

 

[Sonny Clark]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life? Is it wrong to believe that when it's time to go that it's time to go? As sad as the death of a loved one is, it happens to be an inevitable fact of life.

That situation is a very small percentage of health care needs.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Which is why libertarians argue against such restrictions. Going down that road inevitably ends up with government providing (ie controlling) every-damned-thing.

I think we can find some middle ground. Certainly ground far away from how much government we have today, but I am not an anarchist either. For instance, I would agree with licensing for doctors, but not criminal penalty for practicing without a license.

How about no penalty at all? Why shouldn't people be allowed to take the risk of using an unlicensed practitioner if they want?

I could go with that. What I was getting at though, is still have licensing. It would be like premium service for those that wanted it. But I know EMT's and Paramedics right now that could give better treatment than a lot of doctors out there. They just don't have the credentials to give certain treatments, which they are fully knowledgeable of. That is not to say that ALL EMT's or Paramedics are as good as any doctor, but I know a few who are, especially for emergency care and trauma, things of that nature. Take the cuffs of them so to speak, at the discretion of the patient, rather than the state.

 

[dblack]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.