Zogby: 10/14/08

[Larkinn]

Spoken like a true believer that blacks deserve second-class citizenship. That's not racist because you could be Alan Keyes or Ward Connelly or some other black person who believes that bullshit.

Bulllshit. I'm a realist. Maybe you think that mainstream America will all just fawn over someone they perceive to be a pro-crime, pro-drug, racialist. Sorry, but I know better.

So, pandering to you is OK, but addressing what is important to blacks is good for America?

Excuse me, but that is incredibly silly to the nth degree.

I think what you meant to right is that what is important to blacks is bad for America. Thats not correct. What is important to blacks cannot be emphasized by a black candidate, or else his blackness will be emphasized. The more that is true, the more votes go to John McCain.

Obama is running against the worst presidential ticket in modern American history, but you believe he needs to reject his own race to become president .. and we can all then celebrate how unracial America is.

Incredibly silly argument.

He doesn't need to "reject" his own race. I never said that. But he needs to avoid the perception that he is pandering to them. And him being elected at all, is a step in the right direction. But leave the strawman arguments at home, I never said that it would mean America was "unracial".

And the worst presidential ticket? Maybe you think so, but Americans don't. It wasn't so long ago that McCain was ahead of Obama.

How about this .. how about him just saying I hate dumb nxxxers. Would that suit you? Surely he can then pick up the racist vote.

You are an idiot. I'm on YOUR side, genius. I don't think blacks are equal in this country, and I think that needs to change. But as much as I'd love to shove it in Americans faces and say "YES, HE IS BLACK, AND HE IS OBVIOUSLY THE BEST CANDIDATE", if he does that, HE LOSES. Americans are RACIST. You know that, but somehow think that he should be losing those racist votes to pander to people who will already vote for him nonetheless.

I mean, who cares if another innocent person dies at the hands of the state and an unjusr criminal system. No skin off your nose.

Who cares if another 92 year-old black woman is murdered by police as she sat quietly in her own home .. police burst through the door then shoot het to death in her wheelchair .. why the fuck would you care?

Oh, and actions which would lead to McCain being elected will help either of those things? Do tell how that will happen.

As a child, I used to wonder how this country could have allowed the ungodly oppression and terrorism that blacks suffered for almost 400 years. Where were the "good" people? .. Then I realized, they were "good" people just like you .. they had their own concerns .. let em' hang.

Just close your eyes and symbolism will make it all better.

Bullshit. And you know shit about me, so don't make this personal. You seem like a smart guy, try and stick to the arguments and don't make asinine ad hominem arguments.

Let me see .. we can tell the white politicians that "we are Americans and you can't ignore us" .. but by your own words, Obama can ignore us .. that makes sense to you?

Obama can ignore you...WHEN HE IS RUNNING. When he is president, he damn well better listen to you and represent you.

Feel free to go to the polls and support him if you choose .. never suggested telling you who to vote for .. but I have a different perspective and my name is not YOU. I don't vote for actors and clowns who will say and do anything to get elected.

Then you don't vote. All politicians do that. You want someone who will represent you in office or not? If not, feel free to be a purist. Feel free to not vote for anyone who isn't a fucking perfectionist. Then you will have people who aren't just "clowns" in office, you will have people who are dangerous and actively work against your interest.

So congratulations about being "pure". You want to hate on whites like me who support black efforts but think that Obama being a purist will mean that McCain get elected. You would rather Obama promise you things and lose the election, and not be able to actually give you anything, than Obama ignore you, and then win and be able to help you.

This is the rampant idiocy that is so common among human rights folks.

By the way, it isn't the jewish voting bloc that carries the weight as jews make up about 3% of the American population. It is jewish money that carries the weight.

No, its not. Its the Jewish voting bloc, specifically in Florida. The Cubans are also an important voting bloc, even though their percentage is even tinier. Thats the idiosyncratic problems with the electoral college, that small groups get disproportionate amounts of power.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Bulllshit. I'm a realist. Maybe you think that mainstream America will all just fawn over someone they perceive to be a pro-crime, pro-drug, racialist. Sorry, but I know better.



I think what you meant to right is that what is important to blacks is bad for America. Thats not correct. What is important to blacks cannot be emphasized by a black candidate, or else his blackness will be emphasized. The more that is true, the more votes go to John McCain.

He doesn't need to "reject" his own race. I never said that. But he needs to avoid the perception that he is pandering to them. And him being elected at all, is a step in the right direction. But leave the strawman arguments at home, I never said that it would mean America was "unracial".

And the worst presidential ticket? Maybe you think so, but Americans don't. It wasn't so long ago that McCain was ahead of Obama.



You are an idiot. I'm on YOUR side, genius. I don't think blacks are equal in this country, and I think that needs to change. But as much as I'd love to shove it in Americans faces and say "YES, HE IS BLACK, AND HE IS OBVIOUSLY THE BEST CANDIDATE", if he does that, HE LOSES. Americans are RACIST. You know that, but somehow think that he should be losing those racist votes to pander to people who will already vote for him nonetheless.



Oh, and actions which would lead to McCain being elected will help either of those things? Do tell how that will happen.



Bullshit. And you know shit about me, so don't make this personal. You seem like a smart guy, try and stick to the arguments and don't make asinine ad hominem arguments.



Obama can ignore you...WHEN HE IS RUNNING. When he is president, he damn well better listen to you and represent you.



Then you don't vote. All politicians do that. You want someone who will represent you in office or not? If not, feel free to be a purist. Feel free to not vote for anyone who isn't a fucking perfectionist. Then you will have people who aren't just "clowns" in office, you will have people who are dangerous and actively work against your interest.

So congratulations about being "pure". You want to hate on whites like me who support black efforts but think that Obama being a purist will mean that McCain get elected. You would rather Obama promise you things and lose the election, and not be able to actually give you anything, than Obama ignore you, and then win and be able to help you.

This is the rampant idiocy that is so common among human rights folks.



No, its not. Its the Jewish voting bloc, specifically in Florida. The Cubans are also an important voting bloc, even though their percentage is even tinier. Thats the idiosyncratic problems with the electoral college, that small groups get disproportionate amounts of power.

"rampant idocy" is supporting politicians you know are lying through their teeth .. and here you are defending that bullshit as if it was gold.

What I'd rather is that Obama or any politician I support be a reasonably honest politician and demonstrate the courage of leadership .. and I'm going to be voting for one this election .. or I wouldn't be voting at all. Your claim that if anybody finds out that Obama is black he'll lose.

WOW .. I don't buy that bullshit and I believe that he could indeed win as an honest politician.

I have a daughter in the military who has served 3 toiurs in the hell of Iraq. WAR is at the top of my list of things I will not support.

You can do whatever you want.

No, its not. Its the Jewish voting bloc, specifically in Florida. The Cubans are also an important voting bloc, even though their percentage is even tinier. Thats the idiosyncratic problems with the electoral college, that small groups get disproportionate amounts of power.

Amazing .. pockets of jewish voters are more important to democratic candidates than African-American votes ..

Hmm .. maybe that's why they can't win national elections .. especially given that no democrat walks into the White House without huge black support.

Interesting take you have there sir .. when republicans ignore us it’s because they’re racist .. but when democrats do it, it’s for our own good.

Think I’ll file that under the “with friends like you …” category

You can do whatever you want.

 

[Larkinn]

"rampant idocy" is supporting politicians you know are lying through their teeth .. and here you are defending that bullshit as if it was gold.

Thats American politics. I don't like it either, but you can't be a major presidential candidate without lying through your teeth. Blame the media, the education system, whatever the hell you want, but I'd much rather have a candidate who I think will do good for this country, and lies, as opposed to someone who will hurt this country, and lies.

What I'd rather is that Obama or any politician I support be a reasonably honest politician and demonstrate the courage of leadership .. and I'm going to be voting for one this election .. or I wouldn't be voting at all. Your claim that if anybody finds out that Obama is black he'll lose.

I'd rather that as well. Unfortunately thats not the way to win national elections. Not voting at all is a childish way of looking at it. And yes, if people perceived Obama as a racialist, he would lose. Period.

WOW .. I don't buy that bullshit and I believe that he could indeed win as an honest politician.

Well, then your naive as all fuck. When was the last time an "honest politician" won the white house?

I have a daughter in the military who has served 3 toiurs in the hell of Iraq. WAR is at the top of my list of things I will not support.

So your going to help the guy who sings "bomb bomb bomb Iran"? Awesome idea.

Amazing .. pockets of jewish voters are more important to democratic candidates than African-American votes ..

When the Democratic candidate is black, and has the African-American vote in the bag? Yes. Well, sort of. Its not that Jewish votes are "more important", its that black votes are guaranteed, and Jewish votes are not. Hence, Jews need to be pandered too, and blacks don't.

Hmm .. maybe that's why they can't win national elections .. especially given that no democrat walks into the White House without huge black support.

Interesting take you have there sir .. when republicans ignore us it’s because they’re racist .. but when democrats do it, it’s for our own good.

Incorrect. The difference isn't between Republicans and Democrats, its between black candidates and white candidates. In case you live under a fucking rock, Obama has already gotten enough shit because of his race. Do you have any idea how much that would be amplified if suddenly he started pandering to blacks?

Think I’ll file that under the “with friends like you …” category

Go for it. Know what? I'm not your friend. I don't have any special allegiance towards blacks, like you do. I think they've been disenfranchised and I will fight for them, just as I will with the gays and the Native Americans, and others. I don't have this naive perception about American politics that the American people are all a wonderful melting pot and Obama can go out there and pander to blacks and win. Obama pandering to blacks MEANS HE LOSES. Know how much Wright scared a lot of people? Obama handled it well, but pandering to blacks would bring all of that up again.

However by inferring that I'm a racist because I don't share the extreme viewpoints that you do, not about what should be changed, but about HOW to change it, is retarded. You can't stand things being changed in increments because you are such a purist that if you get anything other than utopia you shut down, cover your ears, and cry to mommy.

So, as I said before, you have a choice. Either demand Obama pander to you, and doom his candidacy, or allow him to actually get things done for you after hes elected.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Thats American politics. I don't like it either, but you can't be a major presidential candidate without lying through your teeth. Blame the media, the education system, whatever the hell you want, but I'd much rather have a candidate who I think will do good for this country, and lies, as opposed to someone who will hurt this country, and lies.



I'd rather that as well. Unfortunately thats not the way to win national elections. Not voting at all is a childish way of looking at it. And yes, if people perceived Obama as a racialist, he would lose. Period.



Well, then your naive as all fuck. When was the last time an "honest politician" won the white house?



So your going to help the guy who sings "bomb bomb bomb Iran"? Awesome idea.



When the Democratic candidate is black, and has the African-American vote in the bag? Yes. Well, sort of. Its not that Jewish votes are "more important", its that black votes are guaranteed, and Jewish votes are not. Hence, Jews need to be pandered too, and blacks don't.



Incorrect. The difference isn't between Republicans and Democrats, its between black candidates and white candidates. In case you live under a fucking rock, Obama has already gotten enough shit because of his race. Do you have any idea how much that would be amplified if suddenly he started pandering to blacks?



Go for it. Know what? I'm not your friend. I don't have any special allegiance towards blacks, like you do. I think they've been disenfranchised and I will fight for them, just as I will with the gays and the Native Americans, and others. I don't have this naive perception about American politics that the American people are all a wonderful melting pot and Obama can go out there and pander to blacks and win. Obama pandering to blacks MEANS HE LOSES. Know how much Wright scared a lot of people? Obama handled it well, but pandering to blacks would bring all of that up again.

However by inferring that I'm a racist because I don't share the extreme viewpoints that you do, not about what should be changed, but about HOW to change it, is retarded. You can't stand things being changed in increments because you are such a purist that if you get anything other than utopia you shut down, cover your ears, and cry to mommy.

So, as I said before, you have a choice. Either demand Obama pander to you, and doom his candidacy, or allow him to actually get things done for you after hes elected.

I'll make it short.

Never said you were a racist .. but I don't see you as an ally for the plight of African-Americans. Doesn't make you a racist.

I have another choice .. vote for who I believe represents my interests. Is that somehow foreign to you?

When was the last time an honest politician won the White House .. Carter .. and I voted for him, twice.

Feel free to vote for liars and crooks, actors and clowns if you choose. I don't really care. That has really worked well for this country. I'm stating what I believe, not what you believe.

From my perspective, I do not carry the weight or fate of America with my one vote .. which may or may not even be counted .. yours included.

I carry the weight of my conscious, convictions, and principles with my one vote .. and the mindless ignorance that if you don't vote for who I support you're voting for the enemy is meant for children, not adults. That twisted logic is so stupid .. I'm just amazed that anyone above the age of 8 would even suggest it. It is designed to keep Americans stupidly supporting our own demise .. trapped in a two-party quagmire that serves the interests of the plutocracy.

Who are the people who don't vote voting for? How do you know how they would have voted if they had voted?

"Pandering" to blacks is the same thing as addressing critical issues within the black commmunity?

I think that's a problem you have and how you percieve it. I think the majority of white Americans are smarter than that and would recognize the difference .. particularly from a leader who can articulate a more sane policy that benefits America.

AND, surprise, surprise .. I don't need lessons on racism in America .. I've lived it .. obviously for much longer and much more personal than you have.

 

[Larkinn]

I'll make it short.

Never said you were a racist .. but I don't see you as an ally for the plight of African-Americans. Doesn't make you a racist.

Yes, actually you did. When you said:

Spoken like a true believer that blacks deserve second-class citizenship

But besides that, you should see me as an ally. You need all the allies you can get, cause you don't have very many people who are actually willing to work for equality in this country, and I am one of them. But go ahead, piss away allies because they aren't as pure as you.

I have another choice .. vote for who I believe represents my interests. Is that somehow foreign to you?

Go for it. But if black equality is your interest, Obama represents that far more than McCain.

When was the last time an honest politician won the White House .. Carter .. and I voted for him, twice.

And Carter was...hmm 30 years ago? Exactly.

Feel free to vote for liars and crooks, actors and clowns if you choose. I don't really care. That has really worked well for this country. I'm stating what I believe, not what you believe.

It hasn't, but again if you want to close your eyes and go cry about it and do jack shit, go for it. But the lesser of two evils is a LOT better than the greater of two evils. If nothing else, the last 8 years should have taught you that.

From my perspective, I do not carry the weight or fate of America with my one vote .. which may or may not even be counted .. yours included.

I carry the weight of my conscious, convictions, and principles with my one vote .. and the mindless ignorance that if you don't vote for who I support you're voting for the enemy is meant for children, not adults.

The 2000 election was decided by a handful of votes.

That twisted logic is so stupid .. I'm just amazed that anyone above the age of 8 would even suggest it. It is designed to keep Americans stupidly supporting our own demise .. trapped in a two-party quagmire that serves the interests of the plutocracy.

Sure, if you say so.

"Pandering" to blacks is the same thing as addressing critical issues within the black commmunity?

In reality? No. In how its perceived? Yes. And reality doesn't matter in presidential elections, perception does.

I think that's a problem you have and how you percieve it. I think the majority of white Americans are smarter than that and would recognize the difference .. particularly from a leader who can articulate a more sane policy that benefits America.

Except thats not how politics works. The people who actually pay attention to politics are few and far between. Its about the soundbytes, the debates, and how everything is framed.

So tell me about these brilliant and informed Americans. Tell me why 57% of them opposed the bailout plan when it was called a bailout and 57% of them supported it, when it was called a rescue plan. These brilliant Americans who swing their opinions on an issue wildly by what something is called?

AND, surprise, surprise .. I don't need lessons on racism in America .. I've lived it .. obviously for much longer and much more personal than you have.

Apparently you do. And I've had my share of being discriminated against, albeit not for racism, but its much more acceptable to discriminate against my perceived type, than it is to do it to you, nowadays.