Zone1 your subjective truth is not necessarily Truth, period

Don't waste your time writing to ME because I'm not reading anything from you anymore. I've had it (ha ha) with your hideous attitude toward people who....

are not you.

And thank God I'm not

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Oh, I will continue writing to you, because you will be corrected when you spout things that are not true and are only intended to inflame divisions in the Body. Go ahead and put me on ignore. That will do two things:

1. What I say in response to you will go unchallenged by you, and everyone will see that.
2. You will still see things I write when people quote me.

Are you sure that's the world you want to live in?
 
But it is. If you just sit on your hands and do nothing for Christ and his Kingdom, how can you say you love Jesus?

Jesus said "If you love Me you will keep My commandments"

And His commandments involve that 4 letter word: WORK.

It is WORK to care for the needy, those who do not have what many Americans take for granted. It is WORK dealing with heretics (I'm not sure I want to continue with that particular work.. may be hopeless). It is work to go to Mass when maybe you don't like the priest much and etc...... etc..
Jesus opened the Way of Salvation, a Way of living, a Way of eternal life.

Think of it as life being work, of doing. We can do everything in the ways of the world, or we can do everything/live in the way of salvation. Jesus opened that choice to all. What it all boils down to is that Protestants say they do work because they are saved and claim that Catholics do work to earn salvation. They go on and on and on and on and on...ad nauseam.
 
You haven't a clue what I even mean. You still think I am talking about works when I am talking about salvation. Do you see salvation as work? Is that the problem, that you believe salvation is synonymous with work?
Of course not, and you know that. I believe salvation is a faith thing, and that's clearly laid out in the Bible. OBEDIENCE to Christ's commands is expected. After all, they are commands, are they not? You keep saying salvation is for those who choose to join God's work, yet the Bible is clear that God imputed righteousness to those with faith and no works. I have yet to see you say that salvation is for those who have faith, full stop.
 
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Jesus opened the Way of Salvation, a Way of living, a Way of eternal life.

Think of it as life being work, of doing. We can do everything in the ways of the world, or we can do everything/live in the way of salvation. Jesus opened that choice to all. What it all boils down to is that Protestants say they do work because they are saved and claim that Catholics do work to earn salvation. They go on and on and on and on and on...ad nauseam.
You castigate Protestants for going on and on about Catholics. Do you not understand that you do the same thing to Protestants? Do you see me making sweeping claims about Catholics? I try to avoid doing so, yet I see you constantly making such statements about Protestants. Why is that?
 
Jesus opened the Way of Salvation, a Way of living, a Way of eternal life.

Think of it as life being work, of doing. We can do everything in the ways of the world, or we can do everything/live in the way of salvation. Jesus opened that choice to all. What it all boils down to is that Protestants say they do work because they are saved and claim that Catholics do work to earn salvation. They go on and on and on and on and on...ad nauseam.
They don't even bother to find out what Catholics really believe.. and then they become a keyboard warrior defending Jesus against the evil Catholics, never realizing that the Catholic Church is the ONE Christ founded.. and not caring in any case..

Well, Jesus said there'd be days like this.. ("You will be hated by all because of My name")
 
But it is. If you just sit on your hands and do nothing for Christ and his Kingdom, how can you say you love Jesus?
That's been my point all along. You can't help yourself when you are born again, it shines through in everything you say and do. You CAN, however, devote yourself to a lifetime of works that gain you precisely nothing with God because you refuse to live in relationship with Him.
Jesus said "If you love Me you will keep My commandments"
That's what I've been saying, you can't help yourself and you WILL start keeping the commandments that contain all the others, Love God and love your neighbor.
And His commandments involve that 4 letter word: WORK.

It is WORK to care for the needy, those who do not have what many Americans take for granted. It is WORK dealing with heretics (I'm not sure I want to continue with that particular work.. may be hopeless). It is work to go to Mass when maybe you don't like the priest much and etc...... etc..
It is joyful work to care for the needy, because God puts His love for them in your heart. It's joyful work dealing with heretics because you get the opportunity to spread the truth. It's joyful work to go to Church even when you don't like the pastor all that much because you don't go for him, you go for Jesus, and you know He will bless you if that pastor is obedient.
 
They don't even bother to find out what Catholics really believe.. and then they become a keyboard warrior defending Jesus against the evil Catholics, never realizing that the Catholic Church is the ONE Christ founded.. and not caring in any case..
Jesus founded ALL churches that call on His name and obey Him. Are you going to claim the churches founded by the Apostles in Africa and Asia are not true churches? Thus far, you've studiously ignored them.
Well, Jesus said there'd be days like this.. ("You will be hated by all because of My name")
Being disciplined is not much fun, is it?
 
Of course not, and you know that. I believe salvation is a faith thing, and that's clearly laid out in the Bible. OBEDIENCE to Christ's commands is expected. After all, they are commands, are they not? You keep saying salvation is for those who choose to join God's work, yet the Bible is clear that God imputed righteousness to those with faith and no works. I have yet to see you say that salvation is for those who have faith, full stop.
Salvation is a thing?
 
You castigate Protestants for going on and on about Catholics. Do you not understand that you do the same thing to Protestants?
No.I.do.not. I've never opened a thread about Protestants. My interactions with Protestants is about defending the Catholic faith, pointing out the differences, not attacking theirs. That is not "doing the same thing to Protestants."
 
No.I.do.not. I've never opened a thread about Protestants. My interactions with Protestants is about defending the Catholic faith, pointing out the differences, not attacking theirs. That is not "doing the same thing to Protestants."
If something is in error and leads people to Hell, it should be attacked
 
If something is in error and leads people to Hell, it should be attacked
I don't agree. First, God isn't trying to prevent people from entering His Kingdom, He is present with Word and Spirit to welcome us. Next, God reads hearts and he works with what we offer Him.
 
The Roman Catholic Church adds works to salvation. It denies that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. It adds sacraments (CCC 1129), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), and the works of the Law (commandments) as necessary for salvation (CCC 2068, 2036, 2070). The Bible teaches that keeping the commandments is not necessary for salvation (Romans 3:28, 4:5, Gal. 2:16, 21) and is to be avoided (Gal. 5:1-5). Otherwise, what Paul says in Romans 4:5 wouldn’t be true, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
The Roman Catholic Church preaches a false gospel.
 
The Roman Catholic Church adds works to salvation. It denies that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. It adds sacraments (CCC 1129), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), and the works of the Law (commandments) as necessary for salvation (CCC 2068, 2036, 2070). The Bible teaches that keeping the commandments is not necessary for salvation (Romans 3:28, 4:5, Gal. 2:16, 21) and is to be avoided (Gal. 5:1-5). Otherwise, what Paul says in Romans 4:5 wouldn’t be true, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
The Roman Catholic Church preaches a false gospel.
2 Timothy 2:23-26, 2 Timothy 2:14, Matthew 12:25, Matthew 18:15-16, Romans 14:1-23, Romans 16:17-18, 1 Corinthians 3:3, 1 Corinthians 13:1-2, 1 John 4:20-21, Proverbs 6:16-19, Proverbs 28:25, Galatians 5:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Titus 3:10, Jude 1:19, Ephesians 4:3-6, Ephesians 4:31-32, Colossians 3:12-14, 1 Corinthians 12:25, 1 Peter 3:8, Philippians 2:1-2, John 17:20-23, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17 and James 3:16.
 
No.I.do.not. I've never opened a thread about Protestants. My interactions with Protestants is about defending the Catholic faith, pointing out the differences, not attacking theirs. That is not "doing the same thing to Protestants."
Just be careful assuming you know what they think and believe. I am an open book about my faith, and if you wonder about anything, ask. I will explain what I think and why.
 
The Roman Catholic Church adds works to salvation. It denies that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. It adds sacraments (CCC 1129), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), and the works of the Law (commandments) as necessary for salvation (CCC 2068, 2036, 2070). The Bible teaches that keeping the commandments is not necessary for salvation (Romans 3:28, 4:5, Gal. 2:16, 21) and is to be avoided (Gal. 5:1-5). Otherwise, what Paul says in Romans 4:5 wouldn’t be true, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
The Roman Catholic Church preaches a false gospel.
We have to be careful and understanding about this issue, because many try to pit Paul and James against each other when in reality they're saying the same thing and even referencing the same OT sources. Keep in mind that James was written first, when the Church was almost exclusively Jewish and was thus writing to an audience that was accustomed to living under the Law. Jesus left behind commandments that we are to obey, and very likely some of the New Jewish believers were very happy to throw off the Law and live freely for themselves. James is trying to remind them that they are expected to show their faith to a hostile world through the way they lived and that Jesus has expectations for their lives.

Paul, OTOH, was writing to an audience composed of Jews and Gentiles both and emphasized that faith justifies us before God, that we simply cannot earn it, no matter how good we think we are. There were doubtless Jewish believers within the early church that considered themselves superior to Gentile believers because they obeyed the Law while the new believers did not. In fact, Paul and Peter famously argued over whether to insist the new believers essentially convert to Judaism and be put under the Law. Paul is simply reminding us that, in Christ, no one is to consider themselves more righteous than any other because of their obedience to a set of rules. Something else we need to understand is what faith is. It's not, "Oh, yes, I believe in Jesus". No, it's more a daredevil crossing Niagara Falls on a rope with a wheelbarrow who then asks the crowd if they believe he could put one of them in the wheelbarrow and go across the falls without dropping them. Faith means you get in the wheelbarrow. It's putting complete and total trust in Jesus, which of course means we're going to do what He says to do.

Our mistake is to ignore either side of the coin. Both faith and works go together, and here's how. Faith justifies us before God, full stop. We see this in the thief hanging on the cross beside Jesus. He had no good deeds to offer, no sacraments, no catechisms, no baptism, only faith, and Jesus accepted him. We sometimes forget, however, that Jesus gave us commands and even stated explicitly that His followers would OBEY His commands. And what were those commands? The two most important ones are to love God with everything we have and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. The entire Law is wrapped up in those two, and what do they mean practically? If you love God, you will seek to do what He does, which is love. And if you love your neighbor, how are you going to ACT towards him? Doesn't this start to sound like some of the things Catholics are saying?

Let's be honest here, can someone really say they are a follower of Christ if they then proceed to knowingly and habitually ignore the commands Jesus gave us? Do I love my wife if I say I do, then ignore her or treat her like dirt?

There are two extremes that we need to avoid. One is to say that I can be saved then live selfishly for myself, ignore everything Christ taught and still be welcomed into God's eternal presence. Wrong because you came to Him under false pretenses, not fully committing yourself to Him. The other extreme is to live in constant fear that I'm not doing enough, that I have to contribute to my own salvation, that my desire to obey Christ isn't enough, that I have a set number of church specified activities that I must carry out in order to be welcomed into God's eternal presence. Also wrong. God doesn't want us to live under condemnation and fear, and He doesn't want us counting up our deeds, hoping that there are enough good ones to outweigh the bad ones.

So, what is the Christian to do? First, trust completely that Jesus has you. Satan, the world, and sadly, even some in the church will try to tell you that that you're not doing something right, that you don't belong to the right group, you're not doing enough or you're not doing the right rituals. Bunk. If you put your faith in Him and you try every day to learn more about what He wants from you, how He wants you to act, etc., He has you. Second, keep studying, keep paying attention to the Word, keep loving your neighbor as God directs. Jesus has done everything necessary for you to be welcomed into God's eternal presence.
 
Just be careful assuming you know what they think and believe. I am an open book about my faith, and if you wonder about anything, ask. I will explain what I think and why.
Obviously, we don't know what each individual think/believes. However, I do know what some of what some say they believe. (ninja's cut and paste screeds, for example). No, I don't "wonder" anything. I know what I believe and why, and anyone who wishes to discuss their religious, scriptural beliefs and why, now that's interesting and often fun because there are a wide variety and range of Protestant beliefs. Catholic/Orthodox beliefs are narrower, which is why I find the constant, "Catholics believe they need to earn their way to heaven," not only the most obnoxious statement, but also the most ignorant. Martin Luther believed that, but I am hard pressed to think of any other person (Catholic or Protestant) who has ever believed it.
 
Obviously, we don't know what each individual think/believes. However, I do know what some of what some say they believe. (ninja's cut and paste screeds, for example). No, I don't "wonder" anything. I know what I believe and why, and anyone who wishes to discuss their religious, scriptural beliefs and why, now that's interesting and often fun because there are a wide variety and range of Protestant beliefs. Catholic/Orthodox beliefs are narrower, which is why I find the constant, "Catholics believe they need to earn their way to heaven," not only the most obnoxious statement, but also the most ignorant. Martin Luther believed that, but I am hard pressed to think of any other person (Catholic or Protestant) who has ever believed it.
I have seen posters on this board state it. Maybe they don't really believe it?
 
You are being dishonest about Church history. How can you pretend that the Church Luther and his contemporaries split from is the same Church that Jesus founded? It most clearly was NOT the same. Go on, try to show us how it was the same church, and we will show you how it was not.

And I cannot help but notice how you AGAIN studiously ignore the Orthodox Churches that were founded long before Rome came into the picture.

forkintheroad7
The Coptic church in Egypt was founded in 42 AD.
 
I don't agree. First, God isn't trying to prevent people from entering His Kingdom, He is present with Word and Spirit to welcome us. Next, God reads hearts and he works with what we offer Him.
This makes NO sense at all. I was talking about FAKE religions that need to be attacked bc they lead people astray, and Jesus said Few find the Narrow Way to Heaven so I think we need to be very careful about what people believe. Believing in once saved always saved (for instance) is a fast-track ticket to Hell
 
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