Youngkin Already Picking Fight With Virginia Parents, Get's Smacked Down On Mask Mandate

[Coyote]

You're a little wound around the axle here. Up until about 10 days ago -- THERE WAS NO GUIDANCE on HOW to wear a mask or HOW to CHOOSE a mask. No SCIENCE ever got to the people that a 2 layer cloth mask let thru THREE TIMES the Cvid load that a genuine N95 mask did,

Too much to reply to at length so I am only replying to two specific points.

This one. Your claim is blatantly wrong. These are from 2020, updated 2021, far longer ago than 10 days, and in keeping with what we knew at the time.

Consensus Guidance on Face Coverings

This consensus document describes how the latest evidence requires the public to remain active participants in the effort to decrease the spread of COVID-19.

www.aamc.org

The reason I know is because we were trying to determine if and how best to safely teach our pet dog training classes. Our chief trainer was a microbiologist in charge of a large laboratory, so I trust she knows science here.

Similarly our university had to make decisions, and those decisions were reinforced by the guidelines provided by the CDC at the time.

Much of what is making masks less effective is that Omicron is much more contagious and that is a recent variation.

So this “10 days” is b.s.

And the masks do NOT REACT differently to different variants of Covid. They all filter the same. It's the INCREASED TRANSMISSION of Omicron that only takes a TINY fraction of the virus required for previous strains to get your "infection" growing. ANOTHER GREAT REASON FOR TELLING PEOPLE HOW to mask up-- isn't it?

Agree. But again, the guidelines were out.

Here is another example, from July 2020.

A User's Guide To Masks: What's Best At Protecting Others (And Yourself)

They're made of cotton. Or polyester. Or paper. Or polypropylene. Here's what researchers say about the effectiveness of the different types of face masks during this pandemic.

www.npr.org

Geez Louise -- How about if the govt was MANDATING smoke detectors that required 66% MORE SMOKE TO ALERT you because they had a "supply chain issue" on the critical part that needed to build HIGH GRADE smoke detectors for the military? That's what HAPPENED HERE. And all those folks BANNED by social media for OUTING that fact were right all along about "faulty face masks" that govt TOLD YOU were fine and approved for use.

I showed you two examples of guidelines from 2020. None of them claimed 100% effectiveness. Both explained how to properly fit and wear them. Guidelines also specifically state that best practices involve masks, social distancing and hand washing.

Social media is operated on private platforms. As long as there is competion, they are free to set their own rules in this case, deliberately spreading disinformation on Covid.
.
So what was banned? Here is an example.

Facebook suspends anti-mask group for spreading COVID-19 misinformation

The About section of the public group Unmasking America! — which had more than 9,600 members — described it as “here to spread the TRUTH about masks!” It made several claims which have been widely debunked about masks obstructing oxygen flow and having a negative psychological impact. “It is a psychological anchor for suppression, enslavement and cognitive obedience. When you wear a mask you are complicit in declaring all humans as dangerous, infectious and threats,” the post stated.


Ya, that is accurate

The "science" of masking never changed. NOW -- the public health messaging has changedbecause we face CVid variants that can infect you with 4 to 6 times LESS Cvid up your nose.

I disagree. The science of masks has changed. This is the first it has been put to use in a large scale pandemic in large populations of people. The infectiousness of the organism, whether it’s droplets or aerosolized, and human behavior have all changed both the science behind mask wearing and the guidelines.

And all that NOISE about "my rights" was BASED on the BELIEF that the masks were the difference between "life and death" when they were hardly doing much at all. All that YOU quoted above about "masks being useful" has NO MATH or FACTS or science behind HOW effective they actually are.

The problem with ”muh rights” has nothing to do with math, facts, or science. It is all about the politization of public health coming from the right, and of rights WITHOUT concurrent responsibility, of individual rights trumping any one else’s rights just because. When you have rightists comparing themselves to concentration camp victims (actually anyone doing that) - the politics of self-declared victimhood become glaring. They are victims in search of an oppressor and masks are the oppressor du jour rather than a part of a common sense public health strategy during a pandemic.

Which "rightists" are "passing laws restricting free speech? Lemme know kiddo so I can oppose them. Which "rightists" are restricting the rights of private property owners? I think your Irony Meter needs a new fuse.

Florida bill to shield people from feeling 'discomfort' over historic actions by their race, nationality or gender approved by Senate committee | CNN

A bill backed by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis that would prohibit Florida's public schools and private businesses from making people feel "discomfort" or "guilt" based on their race, sex or national origin received first approval Tuesday by the state's Senate Education Committee.

www.cnn.com

There's NOTHING in your LIFETIME more tyrannical than the leftist states and cities FORCING business owners to be their mandate enforcers and shaking down their customers for vax cards and IDs. Or the THOUSANDS of folks BANNED from social media for stories and comments proven to be true. Or the Prog left Congress that SHUN actual debate because they are gonna do EVERYTHING by themselves WITHOUT any attempt to SELL the ideas -- and call you Jefferson Davis if you disagree or speak "misinformation" about what's ACTUALLY IN their awful bills.

This is just too funny. Rightists banning teaches from discussing topics of racismm through broad and poorly written laws. Rightests making EO’s forbidding private business from anything to do with diversity or race that might make people “uncomfortable”. Rightists that demand the government regulate private social media platforms because they “feel” they are treated “unfairly” and that private business should allow any and all speech on their property. Rightists legislating who has rights over a pregnant woman’s body.

The irony.


Well, I lied. I addressed more than two points, but I am now out of time.

 

[flacaltenn]

This one. Your claim is blatantly wrong. These are from 2020, updated 2021, far longer ago than 10 days, and in keeping with what we knew at the time.

Geez Coyote -- DID YOU READ THAT?

Given guidance from the CDC, fully vaccinated individuals (those who are two weeks past their single Johnson and Johnson vaccine dose or their second Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccine dose) can now refrain from wearing masks indoors and outdoors in most circumstances1. To reduce risk, fully vaccinated individuals are encouraged to continue wearing masks in higher risk settings until a high percentage of the population in their community is vaccinated. Examples of these settings include grocery stores, gyms, movie theaters, and other crowded settings where the vaccination status of others is not known. Fully vaccinated individuals may also consider wearing a mask outdoors when in crowded settings such as concerts, sporting events, and other mass gatherings where not everyone may be vaccinated. Fully vaccinated individuals can safely visit indoors with other fully vaccinated individuals without a mask.

That was JUNE -- and now with vaccine passports and ID -- in NOVEMBER -- you need to wear a mask ANYWHERE you go in most major cities. Vaccinated or NOT.

You can't get into a restaurant, grocery store, concert, etc WITHOUT being asked for papers -- BUT -- EVEN WITH a vax passport, ID -- by NOVEMBER -- you were required STATEWIDE to wear masks EVEN indoors.

Wouldn't matter if only 10 people were in a gym designed for 100.

And the article PROVES MY POINT !!! NO SCIENCE. NO useful guide to SELECTING the best mask, or HOW to "assure a tight fit" or keep it clean or when to dispose of one. Just lump mask under the broader term "face coverings" and LUMP N95 masks in with all the OTHER choices instead of URGING FOLKS to get 2.5 TIMES MORE PROTECTION..

The latest research reinforces that well-fitting masks can help reduce the risk of virus transmission between individuals, allowing longer exposure while minimizing risk. Multilayer, well-fitting cloth masks; “double masking” 6; well-fitting N95s; and other masks such as KF94s can all reduce an individual’s exposure. As knowledge grows about the virus, its methods of spread and transmission, and the effectiveness of vaccines, these guidelines will be regularly reevaluated and updated.

It's almost like "it's for show and perception" rather than helping people STAY WELL !!! NOTHING IN THERE ABOUT 33% filtering capability of a "well fitted multi-layer cloth mask" versus about 90% filtering of an N95. With a virus as transmissible as Omicron --this adds up to MILLIONS of cases as a difference. Especially in grade schools -- where there's virtually NO emphasis on "well fitting" or type or touching the face of the masks.

PARENTS KNOW THIS -- The govt public health smoes dont seem to care.

Much of what is making masks less effective is that Omicron is much more contagious and that is a recent variation.

AGAIN -- the filtration rate of the MASKS haven't changed. Public Health Guidance finally has to acknowledge that we SHOULD HAVE WEARING N95;s and teaching folk how to mask properly ALL ALONG. Because all other types were of VERY questionable help THAN and are NOW -- useless against Omicron.

INCLUDING ALL THOSE 2 YEARS WE TORTURED kids in schools.

described it as “here to spread the TRUTH about masks!” It made several claims which have been widely debunked about masks obstructing oxygen flow and having a negative psychological impact.

They restrict oxygen flow a BIT -- that's the honest fact. But MORE importantly, they BUILD UP Carbon Dioxide which in the extreme can easily kill you. That's why on N95s -- designed for LONG periods of wear -- there is a VALVE on the face that ALLOWS the breath TO ESCAPE.. Did your lying ass fact checkers with their Russian history degrees EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU ?????


For a SCHOOL KID with no history of being throttled and yelled at like these kids have -- SCREW your "fact checkers" -- KIDS ARE HAVING "negative psychological impacts !!!! AND killing themselves more frequently in the extreme.


You're gonna CREATE CONSPIRACIES when your govt is lazy, incompetent and thinks you're too stupid to educate and LIES to you by OMITTING ANY SCIENCE from the public discussion.

So -- I'm not shocked or distressed that this happens. It's the way things work.

 

[marvin martian]

Masks are the left's MAGA hats.

 

[Coyote]

Geez Coyote -- DID YOU READ THAT?

Ya Flac. Did you read the rest of it What is your point ?

That was JUNE -- and now with vaccine passports and ID -- in NOVEMBER -- you need to wear a mask ANYWHERE you go in most major cities. Vaccinated or NOT.

We don’t have vaccine passports.

It makes sense when you consider Omicron. The part after you went bold big letter bonkers gave a rational reason why..

To reduce risk, fully vaccinated individuals are encouraged to continue wearing masks in higher risk settings until a high percentage of the population in their community is vaccinated. Examples of these settings include grocery stores, gyms, movie theaters, and other crowded settings where the vaccination status of others is not known.

You can't get into a restaurant, grocery store, concert, etc WITHOUT being asked for papers -- BUT -- EVEN WITH a vax passport, ID -- by NOVEMBER -- you were required STATEWIDE to wear masks EVEN indoors.

I have never been asked for ”papers”. I was not required to wear a mask indoors except in certain situations indoors at work.

Wouldn't matter if only 10 people were in a gym designed for 100.

And the article PROVES MY POINT !!! NO SCIENCE. NO useful guide to SELECTING the best mask, or HOW to "assure a tight fit" or keep it clean or when to dispose of one. Just lump mask under the broader term "face coverings" and LUMP N95 masks in with all the OTHER choices instead of URGING FOLKS to get 2.5 TIMES MORE PROTECTION..

Didn’t one of the early guidance links provide information on pros/cons of different masks and how to use and clean? I just double checked. The AAMC one does. So does the other. I can probably find some more, but it doesn’t seem like you read them.

It's almost like "it's for show and perception" rather than helping people STAY WELL !!! NOTHING IN THERE ABOUT 33% filtering capability of a "well fitted multi-layer cloth mask" versus about 90% filtering of an N95. With a virus as transmissible as Omicron --this adds up to MILLIONS of cases as a difference. Especially in grade schools -- where there's virtually NO emphasis on "well fitting" or type or touching the face of the masks.

Ok…so first you were saying there was no guidance given. There was. I provided it. Are we in agreement there was guidance?

The guidelines I provided in both examples strongly recommended N95 and KN95 as the best. Ok…so what’s your beef? That the didn’t proved exact filtration levels?

PARENTS KNOW THIS -- The govt public health smoes dont seem to care.

If they don’t care why did they put it in the guidelines?

AGAIN -- the filtration rate of the MASKS haven't changed. Public Health Guidance finally has to acknowledge that we SHOULD HAVE WEARING N95;s and teaching folk how to mask properly ALL ALONG. Because all other types were of VERY questionable help THAN and are NOW -- useless against Omicron.

As my links indicated…public health guidelines specifically said those were the preferred masks.

What you are ignoring is that they were not of “very questionable help“ pre omicron, and studies have supported that.

The ideal would be everyone wearing n95, maintaining strict social distance and washing hands frequently. But that isn’t going to happen. We’re human beings and we don’t live in an authoritarian state. So you give people realistic options that each provide a greater degree of safety than NOTHING. It confounds me when people scream that if it isn’t 100% effective then it is 100% failed. Nothing in the world is 100%.

INCLUDING ALL THOSE 2 YEARS WE TORTURED kids in schools.

We didn’t torture them and they weren’t useless.

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Research Finds Masks Can Prevent COVID-19 Transmission in Schools | Duke Today

today.duke.edu

They restrict oxygen flow a BIT -- that's the honest fact. But MORE importantly, they BUILD UP Carbon Dioxide which in the extreme can easily kill you. That's why on N95s -- designed for LONG periods of wear -- there is a VALVE on the face that ALLOWS the breath TO ESCAPE.. Did your lying ass fact checkers with their Russian history degrees EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU ?????

I dunno…did your lying ass conspiracy theory sites based out of Russia tell you what to believe?

For a SCHOOL KID with no history of being throttled and yelled at like these kids have -- SCREW your "fact checkers" -- KIDS ARE HAVING "negative psychological impacts !!!! AND killing themselves more frequently in the extreme.

Dude. I haven’t referenced fact checkers in our discussion. So calm down, swallow your spit and don’t bust a blood vessel. Just so you know, I loathe rightwing conspiracy theory peddling and it’s attendent crap “journalism” every bit as much as you do fact checkers. I attempt not to trigger you.

The greatest negative impact on kids has been closing schools and social isolation and you looking at a generational cohort that ALREADY struggles with this, pre Covid. Kind of seems like we need to look at this with a larger lense but that is another topic.

You're gonna CREATE CONSPIRACIES when your govt is lazy, incompetent and thinks you're too stupid to educate and LIES to you by OMITTING ANY SCIENCE from the public discussion.

Hmmm…I’ve seen science in the discussions. But then I also found guidelines.

So -- I'm not shocked or distressed that this happens. It's the way things work.

Well, consider this. Parents. You all act like the only group that are parents are those opposing masking. Well those supporting it are also parents. If only some wear masks, it is little more effective no masks. Why not give parents a real choice by leaving it up to the local districts in stead of state wide or national mandates?

 

[Lesh]

Youngkin is no moderate.

Remember that the next time some Republican makes that claim

 

[flacaltenn]

To reduce risk, fully vaccinated individuals are encouraged to continue wearing masks in higher risk settings until a high percentage of the population in their community is vaccinated. Examples of these settings include grocery stores, gyms, movie theaters, and other crowded settings where the vaccination status of others is not known.

To reduce risk of WHAT -- exactly? If I'm double vaxxed and boosted -- why am I RISKING anything? With Omicron the vaccines have less protection,. But am I STILL gonna get hospitalized OR DIE? Same question for the kids.

The ANSWER IS -- COMPLIANCE. The nannie mask minders need EVERYONE or NO one to be masked. And the other part of the answer is because they THINK -- they can eradicate the virus and have ZERO continuing risk. If there was 4% of population still unvaxxed --- these risk intolerant (in any form) leftists WOULD STILL INSIST that double vaxxed -- boosted people who have GOTTEN COVID once or twice MUST WEAR MASKS when they tell them to.

So -- let's recap the science that they ignore here.
1) They stopped using the metric of "herd immunity".. When's the LAST time you heard that be part of their decision making. We are SO FAR PAST herd immunity right now -- that the REMAINING course this virus is gonna run can hardly be altered. This is NEVER gonna be at zero risk.

2) Even more importantly -- the govt mental midgets all the way up to Angry Gramps made this a battle between vaxxed and unvaxxed.. And until a WEEK AGO -- TOTALLY IGNORED natural immunity to be a scientifically VALID reason to qualify as "vaxxed" -- which should have been called IMMUNE. So -- like this decision to SUDDENLY send everyone a useless one-time shipment of a couple N95 masks -- SUDDENLY the CDC which never breathed a word about natural immunity is posting a new STUDY on over a million cases -- showing a PARITY OF IMMUNITY for those vaxxed and those "unvaxxed" who had previous covid immunity. WOW -- what a stunning VICTORY for all those "disinformation" people who were BANNED from social media.

And with the school kids, there's a credible theory that vaxxing them or certainly BOOSTING them -- IF THEY HAD COVID and maybe didn't even know -- could be taxing their young immune systems and MAYBE contributing to this myocarditis connection.

PARENTS HAVE THE FINAL SAY here on ALL these things. Because in large part -- THEY have invested the time to BE fully aware of all the gobblygook and BULLCRAP these govt health nazis have been spewing. While your Inuit Arts and Culture grads working as censors and the "fact checkers" that live in your brain at Google/Twit/FB have been nailing parents for speaking out on the EXACT science issues I just mentioned.

 

[flacaltenn]

Dude. I haven’t referenced fact checkers in our discussion. So calm down, swallow your spit and don’t bust a blood vessel. Just so you know, I loathe rightwing conspiracy theory peddling and it’s attendent crap “journalism” every bit as much as you do fact checkers. I attempt not to trigger you.

It was in one of your mask links -- didn't even care to find out from who.

Facebook suspends anti-mask group for spreading COVID-19 misinformation

The About section of the public group Unmasking America! — which had more than 9,600 members — described it as “here to spread the TRUTH about masks!” It made several claims which have been widely debunked about masks obstructing oxygen flow and having a negative psychological impact. “It is a psychological anchor for suppression, enslavement and cognitive obedience. When you wear a mask you are complicit in declaring all humans as dangerous, infectious and threats,” the post stated.

THE HELL "less oxygen" and "psych issues" -- has been DEBUNKED. As I pointed out -- there IS LESS oxygen or the mask is not effective enough, but the LARGER problem is CO2 build-up -- which is SERIOUS.

And it makes me sad for you to ignore the kids. When you claim that all their isolation issues, and depression and suicides and feeling of failure OCCURRED IN THE HOME and not at the schools whenever they deemed to be open. MANY of them dont have HOMES conducive to learning or ad hoc education that did not work for them. AND SCHOOL was the LAST place that they expected NOT to be safe from abuse. But we know about teachers taping masks to their faces or tying them on and we know about forcing them to eat lunch in the COLD outdoors.

It's OK kid -- the Dems that caused this clusterfuck of over-reaction and IGNORING THE SCIENCE are about to get the report cards with all Fs on them and the note that they're gonna be put "put back a couple grades".....

 

[Coyote]

It was in one of your mask links -- didn't even care to find out from who.

Ah, so that is why you didn’t even read the mask link. You saw “fact-check” and immediately got triggered.

THE HELL "less oxygen" and "psych issues" -- has been DEBUNKED. As I pointed out -- there IS LESS oxygen or the mask is not effective enough, but the LARGER problem is CO2 build-up -- which is SERIOUS.

Do you have any actual studies linking “less oxygen”, “CO2 buildup”, masks as the main factor in the increase in teen suicides?

Here are some things to consider:

PRE COVID

Even before COVID-19 pandemic, youth suicide already at record high

<p>Isolation and distancing are amplifying challenges that children and teens already experience. Experts are worried that studies being conducted now will show a continued increase in suicide rates, which have been going up over the last decade.</p>

health.ucdavis.edu

The rate of suicide for those ages 10 to 24 increased nearly 60% between 2007 and 2018, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The CDC reported that suicide was the second leading cause of death among people ages 10-34 in 2018.

(Trigger Alert: None, no references to ”fact check” identified)

COVID

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-06-11/big-rise-in-suicide-attempts-by-us-teen-girls-during-pandemic

Emergency room visits for suspected suicide attempts among girls between the ages of 12 and 17 increased by 26% during summer 2020 and by 50% during winter 2021, compared with the same periods in 2019, researchers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found. However, ER trips related to suspected suicide attempts among boys that same age and young adults aged 18 to 25 remained stable during the pandemic.

"The findings from this study suggest more severe distress among young females than has been identified in previous reports during the pandemic, reinforcing the need for increased attention to, and prevention for, this population," concluded the report published June 11 in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

The trend is consistent with past studies, the researchers noted.

But one of the most robust findings in the last 30 years of research on mood disorders is that disturbances in our social rhythms significantly increase the risk – even predict – the development of major depressive episodes," Sullivan said.

"This is why mental health experts have been concerned about the accumulating emotional burden caused by the effects of the pandemic on our habits and social interactions, and especially for children and adolescents for whom social interactions and peer involvement are crucial both for their healthy development and their emotional well-being," added Sullivan, who was not involved in the study.

(Trigger Alert: No known triggers found)

And it makes me sad for you to ignore the kids.

Figures you would resort to ad hom.

When you claim that all their isolation issues, and depression and suicides and feeling of failure OCCURRED IN THE HOME and not at the schools whenever they deemed to be open.

I did not claim “all” those feelings etc occurred in the home. You’ve clearly missed the fact that prior to Covid, we were ALREADY at an all time high for youth suicide and factors driving are complex. I know, it is much easier to blame it all on Covid, but Covid only accelerated a trend we were already seeing.

MANY of them dont have HOMES conducive to learning or ad hoc education that did not work for them. AND SCHOOL was the LAST place that they expected NOT to be safe from abuse.

Hey, I totally agree.

But we know about teachers taping masks to their faces or tying them on and we know about forcing them to eat lunch in the COLD outdoors.

Yes, you know about all the most uncommon and extreme examples because you try to pass them off as the norm. You totally ignore the lengths many teachers have to to make a bad learning situation a little more tenable (presumably because you are only looking for the bad teachers). Teachers who were losing students during distance learning, who went door to door to check on their welfare. Schools where children ate outside surrounded by large outdoor heaters. Schools that set broad band access points in parking lots so students could get Internet. Is it a good situation? Of course not. Is distance learning good? It was horrible for many children and teachers and parents.

So, prior to enough people being vaccinated, what would you have proposed?

It's OK kid -- the Dems that caused this clusterfuck of over-reaction and IGNORING THE SCIENCE are about to get the report

Ding ding ding! It is ALL the Dems fault!!! Now how predictable was that? I should wagered money…

Never mind the soaring suicide prior to Covid (why didn’t care THEN)? And never mind the never ending cuts to mental health programs and outreach…or the fact that Republicans shut down schools too.

cards with all Fs on them and the note that they're gonna be put "put back a couple grades".....

Yes, it was a bad situation. Ain’t hindsight great? Now please let us know YOUR brilliant solution starting in March 2030.

 

[Coyote]

To reduce risk of WHAT -- exactly? If I'm double vaxxed and boosted -- why am I RISKING anything? With Omicron the vaccines have less protection,. But am I STILL gonna get hospitalized OR DIE? Same question for the kids.

Colin Powell was fully vaxed and boosted. He had cancer, was immunicompromised, he got Covid, and he died. Now I get that for most of us that is not the case. But a lot of us have family members for whom even a mild case of Covid could be risky. Children come home to families where younger sibs aren’t old enough to be vaxxed and their parents are worried.

The ANSWER IS -- COMPLIANCE. The nannie mask minders need EVERYONE or NO one to be masked. And the other part of the answer is because they THINK -- they can eradicate the virus and have ZERO continuing risk. If there was 4% of population still unvaxxed --- these risk intolerant (in any form) leftists WOULD STILL INSIST that double vaxxed -- boosted people who have GOTTEN COVID once or twice MUST WEAR MASKS when they tell them to.

No. The real answer is not compliance. You go on about me slogging people, but maybe instead of slogging these parents you should listen to their concerns? And honestly, I have to laugh at you implying leftists are risk intolerant of everything when you have rightists displaying a complete intolerance to perceived vaccine risks along with a lack of understanding of risk analysis.

When it comes to this statement: these risk intolerant (in any form) leftists WOULD STILL INSIST that double vaxxed -- boosted people who have GOTTEN COVID once or twice MUST WEAR MASKS

From research, masks are better at preventing an infected person from spreading than protecting a person from catching it. Even though it is less likely, vaccinated people can get break through cases and people can be asymptomatic. So if there is a surge of Covid in area, everyone wearing masks for that duration might make sense.

Another aspect to consider is how would you know who is and is not vaxxed? How invasive do you want to be? Or do you just take them at their word?

So -- let's recap the science that they ignore here.
1) They stopped using the metric of "herd immunity".. When's the LAST time you heard that be part of their decision making. We are SO FAR PAST herd immunity right now -- that the REMAINING course this virus is gonna run can hardly be altered. This is NEVER gonna be at zero risk.

Herd immunity became impossible pretty quickly when we couldn’t get enough people vaccinated quickly enough…if it was even possible to begin. (Unless you are talking about tbe deranged rightest view of herd immunity where you let everyone get sick and let God sort out the winners and losers…)

I TOTALLY agree there is never going to be zero risk (and frankly, nothing is zero risk anyway). So…where do we go from here? What is a sane middle ground that will work for all the parents?

How about this…when there is a local surge, go back to masks, social distancing, and when it passes stop. When vaccinations are approved for everyone, and we better understand the immunity, then treat like the flu with the understanding there will always be those more vulnerable and we respect that instead of humiliating them.

2) Even more importantly -- the govt mental midgets all the way up to Angry Gramps made this a battle between vaxxed and unvaxxed.. And until a WEEK AGO -- TOTALLY IGNORED natural immunity to be a scientifically VALID reason to qualify as "vaxxed" -- which should have been called IMMUNE. So -- like this decision to SUDDENLY send everyone a useless one-time shipment of a couple N95 masks -- SUDDENLY the CDC which never breathed a word about natural immunity is posting a new STUDY on over a million cases -- showing a PARITY OF IMMUNITY for those vaxxed and those "unvaxxed" who had previous covid immunity. WOW -- what a stunning VICTORY for all those "disinformation" people who were BANNED from social media.

You’ve got a whole lot of stuff packed in there.

Natural immunity. CDC has previously released limited studies on it, but considering Covid has only been with us two years any studies are going to be limited (including with vaccine) so I don’t buy this idea there is something nefarious Or incompetency. The other with natural immunity is can be very inconsistent depending on the severity of the Covid a person had and proving the person did in fact have Covid (was there a positive test?

Accord to Johns Hopkins, referencing multiple tests, there doesn’t seem to be a consistent parity. Maybe not such a “stunning victory?

COVID Natural Immunity: What You Need to Know

Even if you’ve already had COVID-19, getting a coronavirus vaccine is recommended. These are the things you need to know about COVID natural immunity.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

Now there is this January study, that seems to confirm what you say:

COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations by COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations by vaccination status and previous COVID-19 diagnosis before and after the Delta variant became predominant.

www.cdc.gov

But, big caveat here:
A recent study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that previous infection with COVID-19 provided better protection against the delta variant than vaccination in a large sample. Researchers speculate this may be because the study was conducted before booster doses were approved, so immunity in vaccinated individuals may have waned to the point that they were more susceptible to infection.

Maybe not such a “stunning victory?

And with the school kids, there's a credible theory that vaxxing them or certainly BOOSTING them -- IF THEY HAD COVID and maybe didn't even know -- could be taxing their young immune systems and MAYBE contributing to this myocarditis connection.

I would agree there is not enough research to know for sure.

PARENTS HAVE THE FINAL SAY here on ALL these things. Because in large part -- THEY have invested the time to BE fully aware of all the gobblygook and BULLCRAP these govt health nazis have been spewing. While your Inuit Arts and Culture grads working as censors and the "fact checkers" that live in your brain at Google/Twit/FB have been nailing parents for speaking out on the EXACT science issues I just mentioned.

Yes. Parents have the final say. So WHY THE HELL do you completely discount and marginalize all those parents who don’t agree with YOU and YOUR group of parents, who ALSO happen to follow research and have a vested interest in their kids?

”that live in my brain”? Screw you.

 

[flacaltenn]

No. The real answer is not compliance. You go on about me slogging people, but maybe instead of slogging these parents you should listen to their concerns? And honestly, I have to laugh at you implying leftists are risk intolerant of everything when you have rightists displaying a complete intolerance to perceived vaccine risks along with a lack of understanding of risk analysis.

The complaints about vax mandates are complex. At the beginning of the Biden Admin the ardent vax resisters were blacks and Hispanics. Blacks have a couple excuses. ONE -- they have a long history of being victimized by immoral medical experiments and TWO -- they had an innate rejection of ANYTHING that was developed by a guy named Trump. Until about JUNE of 21, these 2 demographics were the PRIMARY "Vax resisters". I can certainly source and back that up. Dont even try.

The other complexity is the VERY LARGE % of medical workers who were the "front line heroes" before there WAS a vaccine. MANY or in some cases ALL in small practices, medium sized clinics, hospitals GOT COVID. And by far MOST OF THOSE objectors either objected BECAUSE the govt was not excluding them by virtue of NATURAL IMMUNITY or in sympathy for colleagues who WERE immune due to their selfless sacrifices for GETTING covid to protect others and keep on working.

None of that has ANYTHING TO DO with risk analysis. And largely the REST of the vax resisters WERE ALWAYS pharma skeptical -- which is a HEALTHY attitude when managing your own health. FB found that out of ALL the "vax disinformation" websites on the web -- more than 70% of the TOTAL TRAFFIC went to about a dozen sites. And the OWNER/FOUNDER/CHIEF ANTI -vaxxer for 2 of the top sites was a lifelong pedigreed Democrat -- who you know as RFK Jr !!!

RFK Jr is a GURU of bad news for Covid vaccines. IS HE "a rightist"??? His info is some of WORST on the entire web. Has always been that way. He was the HIGHEST RANKING anti-vaxxer in the country prior to COvid.

ANYONE under about age 40 and HEALTHY -- has an OPTION to WEIGH RISKS without writing themselves a death certificate. THERE's your "risk analysis". Because if you take the probability of GETTING covid in any month and multiply it by the risk of being hospitalized for covid -- the risk is in the SAME RANK as being hospitalized for anything else in life -- IN that demographic.

You never saw a vax mandate protest with a lot of SENIORS mouthing off. Or sick patients in wheelchairs.

 

[flacaltenn]

Remember Coyote --- during the 2020 campaign -- the biggest influence on "vax hesitancy" were Kamala Harris and Joe Biden. I know Politifact (your primary brain) rates this as false. But in the statements THEY MADE during the campaign -- EVERYTHING THEY SAID ABOUT the vaccines "not to be trusted" BECAUSE TRUMP ! --- certainly was an open invitation to vaccine hesitancy.

You can file that as "OPPORTUNISTIC" vaccine hesitancy huh??? LOL...

 

[Coyote]

Remember Coyote --- during the 2020 campaign -- the biggest influence on "vax hesitancy" were Kamala Harris and Joe Biden. I know Politifact (your primary brain) rates this as false. But in the statements THEY MADE during the campaign -- EVERYTHING THEY SAID ABOUT the vaccines "not to be trusted" BECAUSE TRUMP ! --- certainly was an open invitation to vaccine hesitancy.

You can file that as "OPPORTUNISTIC" vaccine hesitancy huh??? LOL...

Oh really? You mean all of a sudden, all those Trump Cultists suddenly listened to a demonic pedophilic satan worshipping DEMOCRAT? Really? Is this what passes for logic in your conspiracy riddled brain?

Do you even bother looking for information that doesn’t vindicate your hatred of the left?

How about digging a little deeper (like stepping away from Conservative Tree House and Gateway Pundit.)?

History of Vaccine Hesitancy | Charles River

From smallpox to COVID, people have resisted a tool that saves millions. Why?

www.criver.com

Some populations, particularly Black and Latino communities have low rates, hypothesized to be due to the historic medical injustices done to these communities creating a sense of mistrust. False information and conspiracy theories continue to circulate online and are given support by many public officials seeking to rile up their bases. Others do not believe COVID is a serious threat and that the risk is “over”. Some believe the vaccine was rushed, despite the fact it was properly vetted by the regulatory authorities prior to distribution. Others refuse vaccination on the grounds that it violates their personal liberties.

Yup, it is Kamala and Joe….they must of used a time machine.

Then there is the issue of what those two actually said (the problem with selectively edited videos is they are selectively edited to support a bias).
Some entire quotes (from politifact, but quotes are quotes)

"Well, I think that's going to be an issue for all of us. I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump. And it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about. I will not take his word for it. He wants us to inject bleach. I — no, I will not take his word."

“If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it."

So here we have had doctors saying take it, since it came out, but suddenly people aren’t listening to Kamala when they supposedly did before? And, reality check - would you base your medical decisions on what an elected politician says?

How about some data showing their statements were the biggest cause of vaccine hesitancy as you claim?

I’ll wait.​

 

[FA_Q2]

We didn’t torture them and they weren’t useless.

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Research Finds Masks Can Prevent COVID-19 Transmission in Schools | Duke Today

today.duke.edu

I dunno…did your lying ass conspiracy theory sites based out of Russia tell you what to believe?

And here highlights the exact problem many of us are having with the masking in school silly mandates. The article, and the 'researchers' in this linked example directly lie about the implication of the study. DIRECTLY, there is not even a remote attempt to square the study itself with the headline they match it up to. The long and short of it is stated in the letter by the researches of the study the article links to:
"We don’t have data from within North Carolina as to whether or not, in school in K-12, what happens when children are not masked."

The study has literally nothing whatsoever to do with masking. ALL the people studied were under mask mandates. That means the efficacy of masking and not masking were simply not studied as far as I can tell. What was studied was social distancing. The study found that social distancing in schools has zero effect whatsoever on covid transmission rates in schools.

So, naturally, that means masking works. Because things.

 

[Coyote]

The complaints about vax mandates are complex. At the beginning of the Biden Admin the ardent vax resisters were blacks and Hispanics. Blacks have a couple excuses. ONE -- they have a long history of being victimized by immoral medical experiments and TWO -- they had an innate rejection of ANYTHING that was developed by a guy named Trump. Until about JUNE of 21, these 2 demographics were the PRIMARY "Vax resisters". I can certainly source and back that up. Dont even try.

Absolutely agree, they are complex, you are ranting to the choir. On blacks and Hispanics, I agree but would say it has less to do with Trump and more to do with the historical and valid distrust of anything the government proposed.

Here is what one article says on the largest groups that were hesitating on vaccinatio based on a May 2021 poll.

Here Are The Biggest Groups That Are Still Refusing The Covid-19 Vaccine, Poll Finds

Unvaccinated Americans are most likely to be young, Republican suburbanites with health insurance, among other demographics.

www.forbes.com

It shows that those that were still unvaxxed were predominantly white and Republican. They also looked at those who said they would never get and those who said they would wait and see and asked what would make that group more willing to get it. So it doesn’t exactly match what you are saying.

Here is another from PEW, in April 2021

Republican Men Are Vaccine-Hesitant, But There's Little Focus on Them • Stateline

Editor’s note: This story has been updated to correct the percentage of fully vaccinated adults. In December, Arizona Republican state Rep. Mark Finchem suffered from flu-like symptoms—headache, fatigue, body aches and chills. But it wasn’t the flu; he tested positive for COVID-19. Nearly three...

www.pewtrusts.org

As federal and state government entities ramp up vaccination efforts, polls show increased confidence in vaccines, especially among people of color, who have been disproportionately affected by COVID-19 and were, at least initially, more skeptical of the vaccines. Vaccine hesitancy persists across all demographics, however.

About 13% of American adults don’t want a COVID-19 vaccine, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Republicans are the most resistant; nearly 3 in 10 say they don’t want one. The share is greater among rural, Republican men, 35% of whom don’t want to get a vaccine.

The other complexity is the VERY LARGE % of medical workers who were the "front line heroes" before there WAS a vaccine. MANY or in some cases ALL in small practices, medium sized clinics, hospitals GOT COVID. And by far MOST OF THOSE objectors either objected BECAUSE the govt was not excluding them by virtue of NATURAL IMMUNITY or in sympathy for colleagues who WERE immune due to their selfless sacrifices for GETTING covid to protect others and keep on working.

As of September 2021, vaccination varied from 63 percent to 77 percent for healthcare workers, depending on the type of hospital and where. Children’s hospitals had the highest rates of vaccination and rural hospitals among the lowest ( reflecting a partisan divide?).

On the reasons why…that is also complex and according to this survey at least, doesn’t seem to match what you are saying in that natural immunity and solidarity don’t seem to be a significant factor. Maybe in some locals, it is

Why are some healthcare workers refusing COVID vaccines?

While a small percentage of survey respondents said they would not get the vaccine, that still could have widespread and dangerous ramifications, experts say.

www.modernhealthcare.com

Of the 11,387 people who responded, the overwhelming majority were in favor of getting the vaccine: just under 80% of the respondents said they had gotten a vaccine or were scheduled to receive one and 4.8% said they wanted to get it as soon as possible.

But there were still hundreds of healthcare workers who were vaccine hesitant — 954 individuals, or 8.4% of respondents, reported they would not be getting the vaccine for now. And 369 people, or 3.2% of survey participants, said they would “not ever” receive it.

The reasons behind the healthcare workers’ vaccine hesitancy were varied, with the most common reasons cited being how quickly the vaccine was developed, insufficient safety and effectiveness data, a disbelief that the vaccine would protect them from COVID-19 infection, and concerns about serious side effects. Nurses were much more likely than physicians, nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, and physician assistants to be vaccine hesitant. Physicians were almost uniformly in favor of the vaccine. Other staff who don’t provide clinical care, such as food service workers and security personnel, had higher rates of vaccine hesitancy.

Respondents who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were more likely to be vaccine hesitant, as were women and Black employees.

None of that has ANYTHING TO DO with risk analysis. And largely the REST of the vax resisters WERE ALWAYS pharma skeptical -- which is a HEALTHY attitude when managing your own health. FB found that out of ALL the "vax disinformation" websites on the web -- more than 70% of the TOTAL TRAFFIC went to about a dozen sites. And the OWNER/FOUNDER/CHIEF ANTI -vaxxer for 2 of the top sites was a lifelong pedigreed Democrat -- who you know as RFK Jr !!!

RFK Jr is a GURU of bad news for Covid vaccines. IS HE "a rightist"??? His info is some of WORST on the entire web. Has always been that way. He was the HIGHEST RANKING anti-vaxxer in the country prior to COvid.

And your point? If your point is to say anti vax conspiracy spans all ideologies, I totally agree. If your point is to somehow excuse or marginalize the rightists who do, I would ask why?

The Democrat party at least doesn’t seem to support RFK Jr. in this. The Republican Party has some pretty loud highly placed anti vaxxers. So….what is your point?

ANYONE under about age 40 and HEALTHY -- has an OPTION to WEIGH RISKS without writing themselves a death certificate. THERE's your "risk analysis". Because if you take the probability of GETTING covid in any month and multiply it by the risk of being hospitalized for covid -- the risk is in the SAME RANK as being hospitalized for anything else in life -- IN that demographic.

But with infectious disease, it is no longer just your risk that you should consider, it is your risk to others. So what is “risk analysis” of getting Covid and ending up hospitalized vs getting Covid and ending up hospitalized?

In fact take a look at who is ending up there. Most seniors are vaccinated now.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

Summary
Unvaccinated 12-34 year-olds in Washington are
• 2 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 12-34 year-olds.
• 5 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 12-34 year- olds.

Unvaccinated 35-64 year-olds are
• 3 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 35-64 year-olds.
• 7 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 35-64 year- olds.

Unvaccinated 65+ year-olds are
• 4 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.
• 7 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.
• 11 times more likely to die of COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.

You never saw a vax mandate protest with a lot of SENIORS mouthing off. Or sick patients in wheelchairs.

 

[Coyote]

And here highlights the exact problem many of us are having with the masking in school silly mandates. The article, and the 'researchers' in this linked example directly lie about the implication of the study. DIRECTLY, there is not even a remote attempt to square the study itself with the headline they match it up to. The long and short of it is stated in the letter by the researches of the study the article links to:
"We don’t have data from within North Carolina as to whether or not, in school in K-12, what happens when children are not masked."

The study has literally nothing whatsoever to do with masking. ALL the people studied were under mask mandates. That means the efficacy of masking and not masking were simply not studied as far as I can tell. What was studied was social distancing. The study found that social distancing in schools has zero effect whatsoever on covid transmission rates in schools.

So, naturally, that means masking works. Because things.

Ok. Point taken. Let’s discount the NC study. What about the others?

 

[BS Filter]

Leftists have thrown down the gauntlet and have said that this is a war and to pick up a weapon. With that kind of language from the left, decent Americans have no choice but to defend themselves from these lunatics.

 

[Coyote]

flacaltenn

It seems you are kinda all over the place in your rant, which is what it sounds like, jumping from masks to vaccines, from 2020 to now…and you also completely ignore my questions.

You made a claim that there was no guidance given on masks, which were better, best, etc., how to properly fit and wear them, how to clean them etc. I can talk from my own experiences but instead provided two links from then that showed your claim was demonstratably false. Are you still sticking to it?

Then you jump to vaccine mandates with a bunch more ranting and don’t bother to hear what my views are on them, you just make a bunch of assumptions.

Then we go to vaccine hestitancy, well, that has been around a long time. But instead of discussing you you go off on another rant about Kennedy Jr being the mastermind behind most of it, and I just think what the hell is your supposed Point? As you stated, and I agreed with, the reasons for it are many, though you made a point of putting most of the the blame on Biden/Harris (which is laughable) and RFK Jr. The anti-vax movement (not just Covid) is not partisan but it does seem a certain type of conservative mind set is more susceptible to conspiracy theories.

The only consistent messages I am getting from you is:

It is all the fault of leftists/Dems.

You hate leftists/Dems.

Ok. I get that. You may have noticed I am not exactly enamored with rightists/Republicans.

But still, I would really like to know what fantastic would have been for dealing with Covid when it first broke up to now (With no hindsight). I asked that a couple times.

 

[BS Filter]

Leftists have thrown down the gauntlet and have said that this is a war and to pick up a weapon. With that kind of language from the left, decent Americans have no choice but to defend themselves from these lunatics.

Coyote thinks that's funny, but we notice there is no challenge to it being the truth. Coyote knows it's the truth.

 

[FA_Q2]

Ok. Point taken. Let’s discount the NC study. What about the others?

I do not have much to comment on any of the others. They are not specific to school or mandates themselves unless I missed some, you linked quite a few different sites. As far as I can tell, vaccination recommendations follow the data very well accepting in cases of children. Mask recommendations do not, particularly in schools. Child vaccinations also seem more politically driven rather than driven by data. A key indicator of this are the multitude of 'studies' that simply do not state what the headlines and politicians are demanding they do, like the one you used.

This particular one is even more shocking considering it seems even the authors were willing to directly lie about the findings. That should tell you something.

 

[flacaltenn]

Then there is the issue of what those two actually said (the problem with selectively edited videos is they are selectively edited to support a bias).
Some entire quotes (from politifact, but quotes are quotes)

When your JOB is to spin and mangle facts to support your political beliefs and allies -- you DIG REAL DEEP for excuses and half truths. You IMPEACH what "generally unconditionally TRUE - like a conniving lawyer asking pointy questions to SUGGEST that the witness has vision issues.

And so it IS with Politifact and all the other chop shops that JUST APPOINTED THEMSELVES "keepers and measurers of truth". In THIS case, the "context" of those quotes doesn't help their case at all. But for people who GO TO THEM for explanations -- it just works to SAY "the context matters here" and they'll buy it. The statements MADE by Biden and Harris on "not trusting the vaccine" ARE CLEARLY aimed NOT at Trumpers, but DESIGNED to tweak TDS'ers. ESPECIALLY, their minority constituents that have REASONS for vax hesitancy in the 1st place. AND IT WORKS..

The vaccines should NOT BE TRUSTED -- NOT JUST BECAUSE OF TRUMP -- but because TRUMP'S FDA and TRUMP'S Warp SPeed program PRODUCED THEM. That's an IRREDEEMABLE damnation. Because they were developed TOO FAST, by IDIOTS and the TESTING was rigged for speed not safe

You made a claim that there was no guidance given on masks, which were better, best, etc., how to properly fit and wear them, how to clean them etc. I can talk from my own experiences but instead provided two links from then that showed your claim was demonstratably false. Are you still sticking to it?

ABSOLUTELY I stick with the FACT that ALL of the public health messaging in the US IGNORED the science of WHAT MASKS or HOW to WEAR them OR WHEN to clean or dispose of tbem.. Making all these MANDATES nothing but feel good symbolism. When you ALLOW 380MILLION to FEEL PROTECTED in masks that let in 66% or MORE of Covid particles -- and TORTURE KIDS without actually PROTECTING them -- Science and honesty and TRUST -- just dies. And so does TRUTH. Because as I said "government laziness, dishonesty, and ineptness" is WHERE CONSPIRACY THEORIES are born.

The FACT that you found a TRANSCRIPT of some OBSCURE NPR "Hobby Hour" on HOW to make a nifty covid mask -- which had no comparable NUMERICAL info value on how all these wonderful masks WORK -- makes me livid. Not impressed at all. By being intellectual sloths - they contributed to the "a mask is a mask fallacy.

Because after PAGES of you mud-wrestling with folks about masking up the children AND AFTER 2 fucking years of constant raging and battling over political dumbshit mandates -- ONLY 2 DAYS ago did i hear a news item about a couple school systems NOW REQUIRING "metal nose bridge" masks for all the kids. Because any NPR handicrafted masks made of fabric WITHOUT A NOSE seal is con and a fake.

This country is getting TOO STUPID to survive. Just like that now, not too fictious "future USA" in one of my favorite movies "Idiocracy". It's getting there because people cannot discuss, cannot think for themselves without fact checkers and cable news. And because EVERYTHING has gotten political. Especially the science and tech that I dedicated my working to.

That's why most threads on a message board end up in middle school food fights instead of getting anywhere.