bendog
Diamond Member
You are lucky, and so am I. The reason people voted for the Orange Charlatan and his "big beautiful new healthcare plan to replace Obamacare" is that fewer jobs come with healthcare. And people didn't like Obamacare premiums.
You get what you pay for
- Thread starter P@triot
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HereWeGoAgain
Diamond Member
I would hardly call planning for 24 years a stroke of luck.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
Yeah, and I went to a store that had chicken sandwiches on sale. I didn't go there because the other stores were going to make me wait until I starved. I went there because it was a better deal.
No one said that Americans do not engage in medical tourism. Of course they do. We are a capitalist society. We look for the better deal. If I can fly to Singapore and get the same treatment, for 1/4th cost, then that's what I'll do.
But I'm not going to Singapore, because staying in the US will result in my death. It won't. I would be traveling for a better deal.
However, that is exactly why other people come to the US.
Lucky Dog: How Being a Veterinarian Saved My Life by Sarah Boston
Unlike your link, I have real accounts from Canadian citizens saying how terrible their system is.
No, guy, immoral is letting a poor child die of a treatable disease because an insurance company is greedy
Alfie was a 23-month-old baby born in the U.K. with an as-of-yet unidentified degenerative neurological condition. Late last year, his doctors declared his condition beyond hope and announced that they were going to withdraw care. In other words, leave him to die.
True horror story: UK’s socialized medicine – Boston Herald
Imagine being in a hospital, and having the doctor say they don't think they can help your child, so they are not even going to try.True horror story: UK’s socialized medicine – Boston Herald
But at least it wasn't a greedy insurance company..... right?
US Doctors Save Life of Baby That UK Doctors Refused to Operate On
Doctors in the United States saved the life of a British baby after the U.K.'s National Health Service said they couldn't remove a large, non-cancerous tumor from his heart.
Oliver Cameron, who was born with cardiac fibroma, is alive and kicking after doctors at Boston Children's Hospital performed a successful surgery on him last November when he was 10 months old, The Daily Wire reported Wednesday.
Now when the government says it costs too much, and refuses to provide care, that's ok.Oliver Cameron, who was born with cardiac fibroma, is alive and kicking after doctors at Boston Children's Hospital performed a successful surgery on him last November when he was 10 months old, The Daily Wire reported Wednesday.
But at least it wasn't a greedy insurance company.
Premature baby 'left to die' by doctors after mother gives birth just two days before 22-week care limit | Daily Mail Online
I kept asking for the doctors but the midwife said, "They won't come and help, sweetie. Make the best of the time you have with him".'
I kept asking for the doctors but the midwife said, "They won't come and help, sweetie. Make the best of the time you have with him".'
In the UK, babies born too early, are not even counted as alive. So they don't even attempt to help them.
But at least it wasn't a greedy insurance company..... right?
We have a lower chance of dying of cancer because we often die of something else first. Cancer is what kills you when nothing else does.
Survival rates do not include deaths by something else. That would defeat the purpose of a survival rate.
Survival rate measures only people who get cancer, get diagnosed, get treated, recover, and are still alive after 5-years.
In other words, you have a better chance of surviving in the US, than anywhere else, because we have the best care.
- Nov 10, 2019
- 52,703
- 33,500
- 2,490
- Moderator
- #84
Good Healthcare is available here, no doubt, but healthcare in this country is obscenely over priced per capita. We spend about twice or as much or more on average than other countries. Just because I can pay $7.00 for a good coke at Disney World, but it doesn't mean it is any better than the 79 cent canned coke I can get at Kroger. It just means the management at Disney rips me off by overcharging because I am a captive audience in need and any price is legal in America.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
So there are two answers to that. One is our demand for luxury treatment, and the other is government.
I will agree that it is over priced. That's true. However, it's not quite as over priced as you think it is.
Lipstein on Hospitals - Econlib
In this podcast with a hospital executive, he talks about how all the insurance companies try and force hospitals to negotiate for a lower price. In the process, the hospital has to increase the prices, in order to compensate for the discount.
To understand... if you have $1,000 treatment, and the insurance companies negotiate for a 20% discount, that means the hospital has to charge $1,260, to cover the cost of a $1,000 treatment minus the discount. So many of the prices you see on your bill, are only that high because the insurance companies force the hospitals to inflate their prices. You were never intended to pay that much.
Additionally, Medicaid and Medicare, both drive up prices.
As you can see, it's a documented fact that private payers, are paying higher prices to compensate for the loss of money on Medicare and Medicaid patients.
So just like before, you are being charged $1,260 for a $1,000 treatment. But in the bed next to you, is a Medicaid patient, and Medicaid is paying out $800 for that $1,000 treatment. So the hospital has to charge you $1,460, for a $1,000 treatment, so that they can cover the cost of the discount, and cover the loss on that Medicaid patient next to you.
So when you look at the price of US care, you are seeing inflated prices from discounts, and the costs shifted to you, from gov-patients.
Now I will say, that there are other factors as well.
One of them is, the government for decades on end, limited the ability of people to open medical schools. This constrained the supply of doctors, which allowed doctors to charge a drastically higher premium for their services.
Another problem, is that government has, in nearly every state, limited the ability of people to open clinics and hospitals. They do this with CON-laws. CON, or Certificate of Need, is a law that says you can't open a hospital, unless you have a certificate of need (CON). And since the politicians have no idea if there is a need for a hospital or not, they have a committee to decided whether to issue a CON or not. And who is on that committee? Why... the people who would know if there is a need for another hospital..... namely... the existing hospitals and clinics.
So let us say that you personally come up with an idea on how to run a hospital cheaply. So you rent a building, and hire some doctors. The government shows up, and asks if you have Certificate of Need. You don't, so they shut you down. You petition for a CON, and the other hospitals get together... hmmm... you want to open a hospital that will provide all the services we provide, but more cheaply than us? Hmmm... Nope, don't need it. No need for another hospital.
You are denied, and no new hospital opens.
And there are other mundane regulations and controls that prevent us from having cheaper health care.
For example by law, you must have a Registered Nurse to hand out Acetylsalicylic. You can't have an intern for example, hand out drugs to people, like Acetylsalicylic. What is Acetylsalicylic? Aspirin.
Similarly, if you go to a medical tourism hospital in Singapore for example, you will find them dispensing aspirin from a large economy bottle. Because those are cheaper. An American hospital will have individually wrapped Aspirin tablets. That costs more money.
There are also luxury costs in the US, that does not exist in other countries.
So this is a Class C ward, in Singapore. In a class C ward, the cost for one night, is just $25. Notices, no A/C. They have ceiling fans if you are hot.
Notice, no privacy. You are in a massive room, with 10 other people, or more. No TV. And by the way, the nurse stations are in the room with you.
Not a ton of privacy there. The nurse stations are right in the room with all of you.
Type of Wards - Singapore General Hospital
You can look at some of the options here.
When you get to a Class B1, where you have electric beds, TVs, but still with 4 people in a room... you end up $200 a night.
The point is, the US citizen has grown accustom to a certain level of service, that is expensive.
It does not matter how socialized you make the system. Until we start having various levels of service, the price won't come down to what we see elsewhere in the world.
Right now, people want our standard of luxury care, but want their level of price. Not possible. If we are willing to adopt their standard of care, we'll get much closer to their level of price.
I could go on. There are many reasons that US care is more expensive, and most relate to government.
- Nov 10, 2019
- 52,703
- 33,500
- 2,490
- Moderator
- #86
So there are two answers to that. One is our demand for luxury treatment, and the other is government.
I will agree that it is over priced. That's true. However, it's not quite as over priced as you think it is.
Lipstein on Hospitals - Econlib
In this podcast with a hospital executive, he talks about how all the insurance companies try and force hospitals to negotiate for a lower price. In the process, the hospital has to increase the prices, in order to compensate for the discount.
To understand... if you have $1,000 treatment, and the insurance companies negotiate for a 20% discount, that means the hospital has to charge $1,260, to cover the cost of a $1,000 treatment minus the discount. So many of the prices you see on your bill, are only that high because the insurance companies force the hospitals to inflate their prices. You were never intended to pay that much.
Additionally, Medicaid and Medicare, both drive up prices.
As you can see, it's a documented fact that private payers, are paying higher prices to compensate for the loss of money on Medicare and Medicaid patients.
So just like before, you are being charged $1,260 for a $1,000 treatment. But in the bed next to you, is a Medicaid patient, and Medicaid is paying out $800 for that $1,000 treatment. So the hospital has to charge you $1,460, for a $1,000 treatment, so that they can cover the cost of the discount, and cover the loss on that Medicaid patient next to you.
So when you look at the price of US care, you are seeing inflated prices from discounts, and the costs shifted to you, from gov-patients.
Now I will say, that there are other factors as well.
One of them is, the government for decades on end, limited the ability of people to open medical schools. This constrained the supply of doctors, which allowed doctors to charge a drastically higher premium for their services.
Another problem, is that government has, in nearly every state, limited the ability of people to open clinics and hospitals. They do this with CON-laws. CON, or Certificate of Need, is a law that says you can't open a hospital, unless you have a certificate of need (CON). And since the politicians have no idea if there is a need for a hospital or not, they have a committee to decided whether to issue a CON or not. And who is on that committee? Why... the people who would know if there is a need for another hospital..... namely... the existing hospitals and clinics.
So let us say that you personally come up with an idea on how to run a hospital cheaply. So you rent a building, and hire some doctors. The government shows up, and asks if you have Certificate of Need. You don't, so they shut you down. You petition for a CON, and the other hospitals get together... hmmm... you want to open a hospital that will provide all the services we provide, but more cheaply than us? Hmmm... Nope, don't need it. No need for another hospital.
You are denied, and no new hospital opens.
And there are other mundane regulations and controls that prevent us from having cheaper health care.
For example by law, you must have a Registered Nurse to hand out Acetylsalicylic. You can't have an intern for example, hand out drugs to people, like Acetylsalicylic. What is Acetylsalicylic? Aspirin.
Similarly, if you go to a medical tourism hospital in Singapore for example, you will find them dispensing aspirin from a large economy bottle. Because those are cheaper. An American hospital will have individually wrapped Aspirin tablets. That costs more money.
There are also luxury costs in the US, that does not exist in other countries.
View attachment 297889
So this is a Class C ward, in Singapore. In a class C ward, the cost for one night, is just $25. Notices, no A/C. They have ceiling fans if you are hot.
Notice, no privacy. You are in a massive room, with 10 other people, or more. No TV. And by the way, the nurse stations are in the room with you.
View attachment 297893
Not a ton of privacy there. The nurse stations are right in the room with all of you.
Type of Wards - Singapore General Hospital
You can look at some of the options here.
When you get to a Class B1, where you have electric beds, TVs, but still with 4 people in a room... you end up $200 a night.
The point is, the US citizen has grown accustom to a certain level of service, that is expensive.
It does not matter how socialized you make the system. Until we start having various levels of service, the price won't come down to what we see elsewhere in the world.
Right now, people want our standard of luxury care, but want their level of price. Not possible. If we are willing to adopt their standard of care, we'll get much closer to their level of price.
I could go on. There are many reasons that US care is more expensive, and most relate to government.
I was going by this: How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker
On average, other wealthy countries spend about half as much per person on health than the U.S. spends.
There is a nice chart on the page showing about 20 different countries, most of which have several years greater longevity than we do, and that we greatly exceed the average. Life in the big city, huh?
Andylusion
Platinum Member
So there are two answers to that. One is our demand for luxury treatment, and the other is government.
I will agree that it is over priced. That's true. However, it's not quite as over priced as you think it is.
Lipstein on Hospitals - Econlib
In this podcast with a hospital executive, he talks about how all the insurance companies try and force hospitals to negotiate for a lower price. In the process, the hospital has to increase the prices, in order to compensate for the discount.
To understand... if you have $1,000 treatment, and the insurance companies negotiate for a 20% discount, that means the hospital has to charge $1,260, to cover the cost of a $1,000 treatment minus the discount. So many of the prices you see on your bill, are only that high because the insurance companies force the hospitals to inflate their prices. You were never intended to pay that much.
Additionally, Medicaid and Medicare, both drive up prices.
As you can see, it's a documented fact that private payers, are paying higher prices to compensate for the loss of money on Medicare and Medicaid patients.
So just like before, you are being charged $1,260 for a $1,000 treatment. But in the bed next to you, is a Medicaid patient, and Medicaid is paying out $800 for that $1,000 treatment. So the hospital has to charge you $1,460, for a $1,000 treatment, so that they can cover the cost of the discount, and cover the loss on that Medicaid patient next to you.
So when you look at the price of US care, you are seeing inflated prices from discounts, and the costs shifted to you, from gov-patients.
Now I will say, that there are other factors as well.
One of them is, the government for decades on end, limited the ability of people to open medical schools. This constrained the supply of doctors, which allowed doctors to charge a drastically higher premium for their services.
Another problem, is that government has, in nearly every state, limited the ability of people to open clinics and hospitals. They do this with CON-laws. CON, or Certificate of Need, is a law that says you can't open a hospital, unless you have a certificate of need (CON). And since the politicians have no idea if there is a need for a hospital or not, they have a committee to decided whether to issue a CON or not. And who is on that committee? Why... the people who would know if there is a need for another hospital..... namely... the existing hospitals and clinics.
So let us say that you personally come up with an idea on how to run a hospital cheaply. So you rent a building, and hire some doctors. The government shows up, and asks if you have Certificate of Need. You don't, so they shut you down. You petition for a CON, and the other hospitals get together... hmmm... you want to open a hospital that will provide all the services we provide, but more cheaply than us? Hmmm... Nope, don't need it. No need for another hospital.
You are denied, and no new hospital opens.
And there are other mundane regulations and controls that prevent us from having cheaper health care.
For example by law, you must have a Registered Nurse to hand out Acetylsalicylic. You can't have an intern for example, hand out drugs to people, like Acetylsalicylic. What is Acetylsalicylic? Aspirin.
Similarly, if you go to a medical tourism hospital in Singapore for example, you will find them dispensing aspirin from a large economy bottle. Because those are cheaper. An American hospital will have individually wrapped Aspirin tablets. That costs more money.
There are also luxury costs in the US, that does not exist in other countries.
View attachment 297889
So this is a Class C ward, in Singapore. In a class C ward, the cost for one night, is just $25. Notices, no A/C. They have ceiling fans if you are hot.
Notice, no privacy. You are in a massive room, with 10 other people, or more. No TV. And by the way, the nurse stations are in the room with you.
View attachment 297893
Not a ton of privacy there. The nurse stations are right in the room with all of you.
Type of Wards - Singapore General Hospital
You can look at some of the options here.
When you get to a Class B1, where you have electric beds, TVs, but still with 4 people in a room... you end up $200 a night.
The point is, the US citizen has grown accustom to a certain level of service, that is expensive.
It does not matter how socialized you make the system. Until we start having various levels of service, the price won't come down to what we see elsewhere in the world.
Right now, people want our standard of luxury care, but want their level of price. Not possible. If we are willing to adopt their standard of care, we'll get much closer to their level of price.
I could go on. There are many reasons that US care is more expensive, and most relate to government.
I was going by this: How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker
On average, other wealthy countries spend about half as much per person on health than the U.S. spends.
There is a nice chart on the page showing about 20 different countries, most of which have several years greater longevity than we do, and that we greatly exceed the average. Life in the big city, huh?
Longevity is irrelevant.
If I crash my car, and die... what does health care have to do with that? Are doctors supposed to flag down speeders on the highway, to raise longevity?
If I engage in a drug deal, and the dealer shoots me and I die.... what does health care have to do with that? Are doctors supposed to run around stopping murders?
If I kill myself, what does health care have to do with that? Is the doctor supposed to bust down my door, and cut the rope around my neck?
When you eliminate traumatic deaths, the US has one of the highest life expectancy in the world.
As for the spending, again, I think I explained that.
There are reason, typically related to government, that have driven up costs.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Your link has noting to do with the story, which was about a woman who had five miscarriages complaining that they didn't do enough to save her 21 week fetus which had no chance of survival. Guess what, they do the same thing in American hospitals.. they just go through the motion and write up a large bill for insurance. They even have a code for in in Hospitals - CTF - "Cleetus the Fetus" to show that no subject is too low for dark humor.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
Born before 22 weeks, 'most premature' baby is now thriving - CNN
No chance of survival? Funny how an American hospital can help the 'no chance' babies to live.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
95% mortality rate.. lifetime of medical issues. Massive medical bills.
Um, yeah, not a big improvement.
Again, my problem isn't that we don't save enough Cleetus the Fetuses My problem is that we have real kids who aren't getting medical treatment, who will be productive members of society if they are allowed to.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
So now, even you are making the case for letting children die, while complaining about capitalism.
See here's the difference, under may system where you pay for your own care, then you get what you are willing to pay for, or whatever charity is willing to help you with. There are plenty of charities that support medical care.
But under your system, where government controls who gets what... they say you die... so you die.
Which system is more moral? Mine is. By far.
P@triot
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #92
No...you’re an imbecile for not having a healthcare plan that covers $3 million in healthcare costs (or more).
You’re an irresponsible fucking idiot for doing that and now you want to make your failure to choose the right policy, societies problem.
My healthcare plans have always covered 100% of all costs beyond my deductibles. Because I’m not an imbecile like you.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
The other guy is screaming and insulting... and I don't see that you have done anything to warrant that response....
Nevertheless, I don't understand your post. You are claiming that you hit the cap.
Now I don't know at all what cap, or plan you have....
But the absolute cheapest plan in my area... the cheapest plan.... has no limit.
It seems odd to me, that me, being a low income worker with a $25K - $30K income can afford a plan with no cap, but you can't.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Fetuses aren't children... and there's only so much money you should spend trying to breathe life into a pile of medical waste.
No poor child should have to rely on charity for basic health care.. The problem is, because of the greed of various profiteers, we spend twice as much per capita as other nations, and we have the worst health care metrics in the industrialized world.
When did the health of our children belong to the insurance companies? Sorry, man, we tried it your way... the insurance companies got rich and a lot of us got screwed. Single Payer. Deal with it.
Meathead
Diamond Member
Do you think there's more dignity in government dependance than dependance on charity?
JoeB131
Diamond Member
"Dignity and the Empty Sack is worth the empty Sack"
- Rule of Acquisition 109
So the real choice is -
1) Get health insurance as a public service, available to all people. (The way every other industrialized nation does it.)
or
2) Hope you can get charity after the Insurance companies have taken your money and refuse to make good on their promises. (The way we do it because greedy interests own our government.)
Meathead
Diamond Member
Feeble dodge.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Did I need to use smaller words?
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