Yet Some Claim Ukraine isn’t Held Enthrall By Nazis

Actually, the ethnicity is the pretty same. Division between western and eastern Ukraine is hardly more than division between South and North in the USA before their Civil War.
ChatGPT agrees (much to my surprise):

"1. Ethnically, Ukrainians are one people


"Modern genetic and anthropological research finds:


  • "Ukrainians across the country share a common East Slavic ancestry.
  • Genetic variation within Ukraine does not divide into 'eastern' vs. 'western' ethnic groups.
  • Historical migrations (Polish–Lithuanian influence in the west; Russian imperial/Soviet influence in the east) produced cultural, not ethnic,"
 
With all risk of oversimplification, I believe it is a necessary to, at least, try to explain for our non-Russian friends the meanings of the word "Ukronazi" in Russian language and political discuss. Like, you know, "liberal" in the USA mostly means "a guy who wants MJ legalized and guns bunned" and in Russian it means "a guy who wants Russian property belongs to friends of Eltzin, not to friends of Putin".
Same way, in Russian language and culture "Nazi" are not "guys who want to kill Jews and homosexuals" but, mostly "guys who want to kill Russians". And from this point of view, the whole anti-Russian alliance is "Nazi".
So, "Ukronazies" are "Russians who believe that they are not Russians and want to kill Russians".
There three main groups of them, I'm going to write about them a bit later.
 
ChatGPT agrees (much to my surprise):

"1. Ethnically, Ukrainians are one people


"Modern genetic and anthropological research finds:


  • "Ukrainians across the country share a common East Slavic ancestry.
  • Genetic variation within Ukraine does not divide into 'eastern' vs. 'western' ethnic groups.
  • Historical migrations (Polish–Lithuanian influence in the west; Russian imperial/Soviet influence in the east) produced cultural, not ethnic,"
I'd say more. Russians and Ukrainians (and Belarussians) are one people, too.
 
Neither Russians nor Ukrainians (actually, Ukrainians are a sort of Russians) are "white suprematists" in the Western understanding of the word. As well as they are not "liberals" nor "socialists". Western racism looks like the very essence of the western mindset (nothing personal). For starters, in Russian (including Ukrainian) mindset, for example "Caucasians" are not considering as "white", but as "Black", and "do smth like a white man" is not about racial or cultural features but about comfort.

I heard monkey chanting when I saw Italy under 21s play Russia under 21s in St Petersburg, they were monkey chanting the black Italian players.
 
I'd say more. Russians and Ukrainians (and Belarussians) are one people, too.
Does that mean Putin was correct when he stated Russians and Ukrainians are "one people" and used the claim to argue Ukraine's statehood is artificial and historically part of Russia?
 
I'd say more. Russians and Ukrainians (and Belarussians) are one people, too.
Does that apply to the indigenous people of Ukraine (and the Russian Federation)?

Why Ukrainians and Russians are not one people, and why Russians are not Ukraine’s indigenous people | UACRISIS.ORG

"On May 18, 2021, the Day of Remembrance of Victims of the Deportation of the Crimean Tatar People, President Zelenskyi introduced the draft law on indigenous peoples to the Parliament.

"The bill does not say a word about Russians.

"On July 1, the Parliament passed the bill. At the time of this writing, the President has not yet signed it into law.

"The bill defines Crimean Tatars, Karaites, and Krymchaks as the indigenous peoples of Ukraine.

"By legal definition they are 'an indigenous ethnic community native to the territory of Ukraine, they have their unique language and culture, traditional, social, cultural, or representation bodies, they self-identify as an indigenous people of Ukraine,' and they do not have a state of their own outside Ukraine.
Оригінал статті - на сайті Українського кризового медіа-центру: Why Ukrainians and Russians are not one people, and why Russians are not Ukraine’s indigenous people | UACRISIS.ORG"
 
No. Is the Ukraine white supremacist? If it is, so is Russia.
White supremacy is a poison that has anchored the core political beliefs of many European and North American states over the past thousand years.

I wouldn't advocate supporting the Ukrainian version anymore than the Russian or US adaptation, yet that is exactly what the last three US presidents have been doing in Ukraine.
 
White supremacy is a poison that has anchored the core political beliefs of many European and North American states over the past thousand years.

I wouldn't advocate supporting the Ukrainian version anymore than the Russian or US adaptation, yet that is exactly what the last three US presidents have been doing in Ukraine.

You're not making a good case for this.
 
Sure you would. How do you define "a people"?
A common mass of human beings in which two random person has usually more common features (biological, linguistic, cultural or behavioural) rather than a random member of this mass and a member of another mass. Borders of the groups and weights (importance) of the features depends on the practical goals. Can be represented as a cluster in multidimential matrix (with biological, linguistic, cultural and behavioural features as axes).
 
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Does that mean Putin was correct when he stated Russians and Ukrainians are "one people" and used the claim to argue Ukraine's statehood is artificial and historically part of Russia?
All statehoods are artificial and all were created for one or another purpose.
Sometimes we have "self-made nations" (like Russians and Americans (while no one is truly "self-made") and sometimes there are made by foreign forces for some (usually destructive) purpose like Czechs (created by Russians to fight Germans) and Ukrainians (initially, in the first wave of ukrainisation created by Austrians to fight Russia).

Until the middle of XIX century even Austrians considered Galicians as Russians.
 
Does that apply to the indigenous people of Ukraine (and the Russian Federation)?

Why Ukrainians and Russians are not one people, and why Russians are not Ukraine’s indigenous people | UACRISIS.ORG

"On May 18, 2021, the Day of Remembrance of Victims of the Deportation of the Crimean Tatar People, President Zelenskyi introduced the draft law on indigenous peoples to the Parliament.

"The bill does not say a word about Russians.

"On July 1, the Parliament passed the bill. At the time of this writing, the President has not yet signed it into law.

"The bill defines Crimean Tatars, Karaites, and Krymchaks as the indigenous peoples of Ukraine.

"By legal definition they are 'an indigenous ethnic community native to the territory of Ukraine, they have their unique language and culture, traditional, social, cultural, or representation bodies, they self-identify as an indigenous people of Ukraine,' and they do not have a state of their own outside Ukraine.
Оригінал статті - на сайті Українського кризового медіа-центру: Why Ukrainians and Russians are not one people, and why Russians are not Ukraine’s indigenous people | UACRISIS.ORG"
"Indigenous people" of Ukraine (and former Ukrainian regions) have the same rights that all other indigenous people of the "multiethnic people of the Russian Federation".



And, by the way, "Ukrainians" are not named among "native people" of Ukraine. (Because "the third wave of Ukrainisation" say that Ukrainians are not Russians because Ukrainians are the only true Russians, while "Moscowites" are not Russians, but Mongols, Finns, Hungarians, Tatars and whoever else).
 
And, by the way, "Ukrainians" are not named among "native people" of Ukraine. (Because "the third wave of Ukrainisation" say that Ukrainians are not Russians because Ukrainians are the only true Russians, while "Moscowites" are not Russians, but Mongols, Finns, Hungarians, Tatars and whoever else)
Is this at least a partial explanation for why Putin has not turned Kiev into Gaza City?
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Kievan Rus
 
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A common mass of human beings in which two random person has usually more common features (biological, linguistic, cultural or behavioural) rather than a random member of this mass and a member of another mass. Borders of the groups and weights (importance) of the features depends on the practical goals. Can be represented as a cluster in multidimential matrix (with biological, linguistic, cultural and behavioural features as axes).

And how do you define whether those common features are common?

Take Russia and China. Both peoples have eyes, have ears, have legs and arms. Common features.
 
And how do you define whether those common features are common?
According practical needs, of course. In a small village somewhere in Leningrad oblast, Russians and Ijora are different people, coz, say, Ijora (in this village) are traditionally cattle herders and Russians are tanners. But even in a small town, where are more occupations and lifestile is different, this difference became insignificant, and Ijora became just Russians. But in a small town here is still a difference between Russians and, say, Tatars, which often became insignificant in a big city or outside Russia.
As Arabs say: "Me and my brother against my cousin, my cousin and me against the all other world".
And in everydays "inside Russia usage" understanding of the distinction between "Russians/not Russians" Kiev is more Russian city than Grozny or Kazan and Ukrainians (even western Ukrainians) are at least as Russian as Pomors or Kamchadals, and more Russian than Ijora. My Grandma was Western Ukrainian from a small village, she almost didn't speak proper Literature Russian, but, from my (and my mom's) point of view she was a Russian.

Take Russia and China. Both peoples have eyes, have ears, have legs and arms. Common features.
Those common features are common with Americans, either. If you want to prove that Russians and Chinamen are one people and Americans are another, you need something more than that. Official American propaganda says that both Russians and Chinamen love dictatorship, and Americans are freedom loving, but it is obvious BS. There is conception of "Eurasiatvo" searching for common features of Eurasian people, distinguishing them from Africans and Americans, but, it is more a kind of intellectual game than actual everydays experience.
 
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According practical needs, of course. In a small village somewhere in Leningrad oblast, Russians and Ijora are different people, coz, say, Ijora (in this village) are traditionally cattle herders and Russians are tanners. But even in a small town, where are more occupations and lifestile is different, this difference became insignificant, and Ijora became just Russians. But in a small town here is still a difference between Russians and, say, Tatars, which often became insignificant in a big city or outside Russia.
As Arabs say: "Me and my brother against my cousin, my cousin and me against the all other world".
And in everydays "inside Russia usage" understanding of the distinction between "Russians/not Russians" Kiev is more Russian city than Grozny or Kazan and Ukrainians (even western Ukrainians) are at least as Russian as Pomors or Kamchadals, and more Russian than Ijora. My Grandma was Western Ukrainian from a small village, she almost didn't speak proper Literature Russian, but, from my (and my mom's) point of view she was a Russian.


Those common features are common with Americans, either. If you want to prove that Russians and Chinamen are one people and Americans are another, you need something more than that. Official American propaganda says that both Russians and Chinamen love dictatorship, and Americans are freedom loving, but it is obvious BS.
Practical needs like "I want to take over your country, so I've decided that you are the same people as us, even though you don't feel the same"???

So, that's what Russia has done to justify its bullshit.
 
Practical needs like "I want to take over your country, so I've decided that you are the same people as us, even though you don't feel the same"???
More or less. More likely "We are the same culture, you and I, and we should live in peace, together". But, if something is really necessary for our safety we can take it without this kind of justification. Like, say, Chechens are not (by in-Russian standards) Russians (actually, Nohchi isn't even an indoeuropean language), but Chechnya is important for our safety, so, we returned it without that kind of justification.

In fact, most of Ukrainians feel that Russians and Ukrainians are the same people. Like, say, my Western Ukrainian gradma (poor villager), when saw me first time (when I was six year old boy), said: "What a nice boy! Moscowite's smartassness with Jewish courtuasity" didn't refuse to recognise me as a relative.

Nazification makes people think that they are not Russians and they should kill Russians.
Oversimplificated, there were three main ideological waves of Ukro-Nazification (all three were based on factual bullshit and propaganda)
1. In the middle of XIX century, Austria after recognisition of Czech threat, and understanding how powerful weapon could be "national-building" decided to make non-Russians from controlled by them part of Russian people (Galicians). So, they said - "You are not Russians, you are "Ukrainians" because you speak different language (not dialect of Russian). They sponsored making "Ukrainian language" from local dialect of Galician villagers. Really poor thing, practically useless for any purpose short of singing folk songs. What is even more important - for a poor and narrow-mind Galician villager everyone (including Moscowites, Jews, Poles and even "Ukrainians from Poltava") are aliens and Germans are "natural masters". One can use them for the violence and destruction, may be for some farming, but they can't make a tank or a gun. Really poor guys. Banderlogs or Raguls in the narrow meaning of the word. We can call it Ukronazism type I.

2. Second stage of Ukrainisation was Soviet. Extra-left communists government in 1920s saw "Great Russian Chauvinism" as the greatest threat for their national policy. You know, something like "positive discrimination" on steroids. Ukrainisation was a form of "rootinisation" and "nation-building" in Soviet Republics. So, they made "Derjavna Mova" (State's language) based not only Galician, but some other dialects, too. In fact, it, like Esperanto, is no one's first language. It is the language of bureaucratic features. State-loyal nazism is a form of loyalty to the state. "We are Ukrainians because our government said us that. We speak (sometimes), Ukrainian at job or because we demonstrate our loyalty to the current regime. It is so called "political Ukrainism" (or Ukronazism type II) and, say, Zelenskiy (Russian-speaking Jew) or Syrsky (ethnic Russian) are examples of that. After fall of the Soviet Union, political Ukrainism became just loyalty to pro-Western course.

3. Post-Soviet Ukrainian Neonazism, is a way to "Ukronazificate" mostly eastern, Russian-speaking population of the industrial, educated cosmopolitic Eastern Ukraine (Russians and "Russian-speaking Ukrainians"). Like, you know, Azov battalion/brigade/corps. It is classical western Neo-Nazism. You can't say to a man, speaking proper Russian language (usually even without any significant accent) that his language is not Russian. So, you tell him, that he is the only true Russian, while Moscowites are Mongols, Finno-Hungarians and Tatars and they are not Russians. Of course it is a lie and nazism in the modern Western understanding. We can call it Ukronazism type III.


So, that's what Russia has done to justify its bullshit.
Of course, not. The fact that New-Yorkers and Texans both are Americans isn't BS, even if North use it as an ideological justification for keeping Texas in the USA.
 
More or less. More likely "We are the same culture, you and I, and we should live in peace, together". But, if something is really necessary for our safety we can take it without this kind of justification. Like, say, Chechens are not (by in-Russian standards) Russians (actually, Nohchi isn't even an indoeuropean language), but Chechnya is important for our safety, so, we returned it without that kind of justification.

In fact, most of Ukrainians feel that Russians and Ukrainians are the same people. Like, say, my Western Ukrainian gradma (poor villager), when saw me first time (when I was six year old boy), said: "What a nice boy! Moscowite's smartassness with Jewish courtuasity" didn't refuse to recognise me as a relative.

Nazification makes people think that they are not Russians and they should kill Russians.
Oversimplificated, there were three main ideological waves of Ukro-Nazification (all three were based on factual bullshit and propaganda)
1. In the middle of XIX century, Austria after recognisition of Czech threat, and understanding how powerful weapon could be "national-building" decided to make non-Russians from controlled by them part of Russian people (Galicians). So, they said - "You are not Russians, you are "Ukrainians" because you speak different language (not dialect of Russian). They sponsored making "Ukrainian language" from local dialect of Galician villagers. Really poor thing, practically useless for any purpose short of singing folk songs. What is even more important - for a poor and narrow-mind Galician villager everyone (including Moscowites, Jews, Poles and even "Ukrainians from Poltava") are aliens and Germans are "natural masters". One can use them for the violence and destruction, may be for some farming, but they can't make a tank or a gun. Really poor guys. Banderlogs or Raguls in the narrow meaning of the word. We can call it Ukronazism type I.

2. Second stage of Ukrainisation was Soviet. Extra-left communists government in 1920s saw "Great Russian Chauvinism" as the greatest threat for their national policy. You know, something like "positive discrimination" on steroids. Ukrainisation was a form of "rootinisation" and "nation-building" in Soviet Republics. So, they made "Derjavna Mova" (State's language) based not only Galician, but some other dialects, too. In fact, it, like Esperanto, is no one's first language. It is the language of bureaucratic features. State-loyal nazism is a form of loyalty to the state. "We are Ukrainians because our government said us that. We speak (sometimes), Ukrainian at job or because we demonstrate our loyalty to the current regime. It is so called "political Ukrainism" (or Ukronazism type II) and, say, Zelenskiy (Russian-speaking Jew) or Syrsky (ethnic Russian) are examples of that. After fall of the Soviet Union, political Ukrainism became just loyalty to pro-Western course.

3. Post-Soviet Ukrainian Neonazism, is a way to "Ukronazificate" mostly eastern, Russian-speaking population of the industrial, educated cosmopolitic Eastern Ukraine (Russians and "Russian-speaking Ukrainians"). Like, you know, Azov battalion/brigade/corps. It is classical western Neo-Nazism. You can't say to a man, speaking proper Russian language (usually even without any significant accent) that his language is not Russian. So, you tell him, that he is the only true Russian, while Moscowites are Mongols, Finno-Hungarians and Tatars and they are not Russians. Of course it is a lie and nazism in the modern Western understanding. We can call it Ukronazism type III.



Of course, not. The fact that New-Yorkers and Texans both are Americans isn't BS, even if North use it as an ideological justification for keeping Texas in the USA.

"Nazification"? More like nationalism.

And when faced with an asshole like Putin, then you're more likely to turn away from that country that treats you badly.

Texas could try and cede from the union, they've never tried.
 
"Nazification"? More like nationalism.
The matter of definitions. Ukronazism type I can be more or less called "nazionalism" in the western meaning of the word (while it, among other things, promote inferiority of Slavic people comparing with German people). Ukronazism type II is more of "fascism" - "people should be changed because the government said so". And Ukronazism type III ("Mongols and Finno-Hungarians are subhumans and should be killed") is more or less western Neo-Nazism.


And when faced with an asshole like Putin, then you're more likely to turn away from that country that treats you badly.
As I said, it depends. If you good to Russia, Russia is good to you.


Texas could try and cede from the union, they've never tried.
Washington (and American people) may recognise formal independence of Texas, but there is no way that American people may allow discrimination and open genocide of English-speaking Texans (including demonstrative human sacrifices in the worst Indian and Spanish inquisition traditions) or American decision-makers can allow Chinese medium-range missiles there after joining Texas to Shanghai block.
 
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