Yet Some Claim Ukraine isn’t Held Enthrall By Nazis

[frigidweirdo]

The matter of definitions. Ukronazism type I can be more or less called "nazionalism" in the western meaning of the word (while it, among other things, promote inferiority of Slavic people comparing with German people). Ukronazism type II is more of "fascism" - "people should be changed because the government said so". And Ukronazism type III ("Mongols and Finno-Hungarians are subhumans and should be killed") is more or less western Neo-Nazism.



As I said, it depends. If you good to Russia, Russia is good to you.



Washington (and American people) may recognise formal independence of Texas, but there is no way that American people may allow discrimination and open genocide of English-speaking Texans (including demonstrative human sacrifices in the worst Indian and Spanish inquisition traditions) or American decision-makers can allow Chinese medium-range missiles there after joining Texas to Shanghai block.

And how many people in the Ukraine are "Nazis"?

And how many people in Russia are "Nazis"?

And how many people, on average, in other countries, are "Nazis"?

 

[Zavulon]

And how many people in the Ukraine are "Nazis"?

It is not some kind of Black and White picture. It is about ideas in human minds.
And the very same ideas can be, depending on situation "destructive" or "constructive".
Like, a typical Western Ukrainian Ragul may be (from Russian point view) a "bad Ukrainian Nazi" when he is killing Russians and a "good Ukrainian Rebel" when he is fighting against Polish, German or American "occupant". It is about vector of the force.
Like, you know, in the Ukrainian advert of draft. "You may be a draft dodger now, but when Moscowites came - they will order you to attack Berlin".




And there is a scalar part. How strong is his motivation. "Radical Nazies" are ready to risk (or even sacrifice) their lifes for their ideas. Most of them are already eliminated. There are "moderate Nazies" who don't want to kill Russians now (at least they don't want rosk their lives doing so), but if they are captured and drafted, and threatened by execution they'll shoot or they can finance anti-Russian war. May be, there are one or two million of them left. We'll kill them all in a year or two if the war continues or find them by their network and financial activity if we win now. And there are crypto-Nazies. People who hide their weak anti-Russian rotten nature, who are not ready to kill Russians or finance killing them, but can be corrupted by the western special services for the proper price. Actually, everyone can be corruped if the proper price and clue is found, so, the simplest way to find them is practical testing.

And how many people in Russia are "Nazis"?

Depends on definitions. In Russian Federation "Russians who believe that they are not Russians and ready to kill Russians" are absolute minority and most of them are crypto-Nazies (and some are FSB provocateurs).

And how many people, on average, in other countries, are "Nazis"?

It depends on definitions. In Germany, say, two thirds of population (mostly in former Western Germany) voted for anti-Russian parties. In America more than half of population voted for making peace with Russia. But for the foreigners situation is much more complicated than being "pro-Russian"/"anti-Russian" and even for being pro-Russian or anti-Russian they may have really different and weird motivations.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Deadstick]

"Nazification"? More like nationalism.

And when faced with an asshole like Putin, then you're more likely to turn away from that country that treats you badly.

Texas could try and cede from the union, they've never tried.

How did Putin treat Ukraine badly by providing cheap energy?

 

[Deadstick]

Well they had been doing that long before 2023 to the civilians in Donbass since 2014 with thousands killed, the MSM never talk about that.

 

[Ringo]

Ukraine will go down in history as the first country that failed to build National Socialism because all the money for it was stolen by jews.

 

[Deadstick]

Ukraine will go down in history as the first country that failed to build National Socialism because all the money for it was stolen by jews.

Many of those Ukrainian Oligarchs who have looted Ukraine live in Israel.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It is not some kind of Black and White picture. It is about ideas in human minds.
And the very same ideas can be, depending on situation "destructive" or "constructive".
Like, a typical Western Ukrainian Ragul may be (from Russian point view) a "bad Ukrainian Nazi" when he is killing Russians and a "good Ukrainian Rebel" when he is fighting against Polish, German or American "occupant". It is about vector of the force.
Like, you know, in the Ukrainian advert of draft. "You may be a draft dodger now, but when Moscowites came - they will order you to attack Berlin".




And there is a scalar part. How strong is his motivation. "Radical Nazies" are ready to risk (or even sacrifice) their lifes for their ideas. Most of them are already eliminated. There are "moderate Nazies" who don't want to kill Russians now (at least they don't want rosk their lives doing so), but if they are captured and drafted, and threatened by execution they'll shoot or they can finance anti-Russian war. May be, there are one or two million of them left. We'll kill them all in a year or two if the war continues or find them by their network and financial activity if we win now. And there are crypto-Nazies. People who hide their weak anti-Russian rotten nature, who are not ready to kill Russians or finance killing them, but can be corrupted by the western special services for the proper price. Actually, everyone can be corruped if the proper price and clue is found, so, the simplest way to find them is practical testing.




Depends on definitions. In Russian Federation "Russians who believe that they are not Russians and ready to kill Russians" are absolute minority and most of them are crypto-Nazies (and some are FSB provocateurs).


It depends on definitions. In Germany, say, two thirds of population (mostly in former Western Germany) voted for anti-Russian parties. In America more than half of population voted for making peace with Russia. But for the foreigners situation is much more complicated than being "pro-Russian"/"anti-Russian" and even for being pro-Russian or anti-Russian they may have really different and weird motivations.

Oh, but the Russian narrative is "Ukraine are Nazis, therefore don't help them in the war "Special military operation" (snigger, snigger) against Russia".

 

[Zavulon]

Oh, but the Russian narrative is "Ukraine are Nazis, therefore don't help them in the war "Special military operation" (snigger, snigger) against Russia".

It's not a message like "We think they are bad guys, so you should think that way, too, and don't help them because of your understanding of what is good and what is evil". Russia, especially in the talks with aliens, is far from moralizing. It is more like: "We call them Nazies because we consider them as vital threat and are going to achieve decisive victory. If you are with them, we are going to defeat you, too. " It's more practical thing. "If you calculate possible consequences - it is in your best interests not to help them".

 

[frigidweirdo]

It's not a message like "We think they are bad guys, so you should think that way, too, and don't help them because of your understanding of what is good and what is evil". Russia, especially in the talks with aliens, is far from moralizing. It is more like: "We call them Nazies because we consider them as vital threat and are going to achieve decisive victory. If you are with them, we are going to defeat you, too. " It's more practical thing. "If you calculate possible consequences - it is in your best interests not to help them".

So, you call them Nazis because you want people to see them in a bad light?

Right.

 

[Zavulon]

So, you call them Nazis because you want people to see them in a bad light?

Not necessarily. We call them nazies to say other people how we see them. We don't want other people to see them same way we see them. We want other people to understand, that we see them as a threat.
And it is not "bad light". When I say, that my Grandma was a poor villager, it doesn't mean that I didn't love her (as a person). But fact is fact. There are differences in the mindset of a poor villager and a city dweller. Not sure than "wide mind", "tolerance" and "understanding" of a Russian Imperialist (like myself) is somehow "better" for you than a xenophobia and primitive violence of a narrow minded poor villager from western Ukraine.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Not necessarily. We call them nazies to say other people how we see them. We don't want other people to see them same way we see them. We want other people to understand, that we see them as a threat.
And it is not "bad light". When I say, that my Grandma was a poor villager, it doesn't mean that I didn't love her (as a person). But fact is fact. There are differences in the mindset of a poor villager and a city dweller. Not sure than "wide mind", "tolerance" and "understanding" of a Russian Imperialist (like myself) is somehow "better" for you than a xenophobia and primitive violence of a narrow minded poor villager from western Ukraine.

Well, if you see them as Nazis, how is it possible you don't see yourself as "Nazis"?

I'm betting there are more neo-Nazis in Russia than the Ukraine.

Neo-Nazism in Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"With the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War, Russian neo-Nazis have achieved international attention for their militant support of Russian-backed separatist forces in eastern Ukraine. Certain groups, such as the Russian Imperial Movement, have been accused of training white supremacists and neo-Nazis from other countries in Europe. The links between these groups and the Russian government, comprising a policy known as managed nationalism, have become particularly noteworthy since the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine after Russian President Vladimir Putin claimed to be pursuing the "denazification" of Ukraine."

"Since the 2004 Orange Revolution in Ukraine, the Russian government has been routinely accused of collaborating with neo-Nazis in order to fight domestic opposition to Vladimir Putin."

"In particular, the Russian Imperial Movement have been noted for their large number of volunteers, including white supremacist militants from throughout Europe. Initially important in supporting Russian forces during the 2014–2022 War in Donbas, their relevance has decreased with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine."

Names of such groups

Werewolf Legion
Schultz-88
Mad Crowd
National Socialist Party of Russia
Saviour
White Society-88
Ryno-Skachevsky gang
BORN
Volkssturm
Lincoln-88
NS/WP Nevograd
The Cleaners
Atomwaffen Division Russland
Rusich Group
Wagner Group

 

[Zavulon]

Well, if you see them as Nazis, how is it possible you don't see yourself as "Nazis"?

It all depends on the definitions.
If we define Nazies as "anti-Russian guys" (and we do) pro-Russian guys can't be Nazies by definition.

But of you define Nazies as "anti-American guys" - absolute majority of Russians are "nazies". Actually, I prefer term "Russian Imperialism" while it is even much more complex and sophisticated set of ideological, political, cultural, religious and scientific features. Russian (including Ukrainian) Neo-Nazies are, in fact, more different from western Neo-Nazies than Putin's "Sovereign Democracy" is different from American "Business-controlled democracy" (which, from the Russian point or view, has nothing common with freedom).

By, say, modern American standards (wokism) even innocent (by Russian standards) child fairy-tales, can't be demonstrated publically.
For example, in the "Finist - The First Bogatyr" (for children older than 6) Ukrainians depicted as a flying pig, Europe is a shape-shifting monster, abstract raghead acts like an animal (including drinking from a pond), Gringo-"inventor" is a malevolent fraud, (say nothing about jokes about watermelons), protagonist (something like hero) poison his comrades, and his dream-team betray him several times.


Classical German Nazism as well as American Democracy are Western ideologies and, from the Russian point of view are as close to each other as Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola (comparing with Kvas). And, of course, explaining a taste of Kvas to someone who in his whole life tryied only Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola is practically useless.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It all depends on the definitions.
If we define Nazies as "anti-Russian guys" (and we do) pro-Russian guys can't be Nazies by definition.

But of you define Nazies as "anti-American guys" - absolute majority of Russians are "nazies". Actually, I prefer term "Russian Imperialism" while it is even much more complex and sophisticated set of ideological, political, cultural, religious and scientific features. Russian (including Ukrainian) Neo-Nazies are, in fact, more different from western Neo-Nazies than Putin's "Sovereign Democracy" is different from American "Business-controlled democracy" (which, from the Russian point or view, has nothing common with freedom).

By, say, modern American standards (wokism) even innocent (by Russian standards) child fairy-tales, can't be demonstrated publically.
For example, in the "Finist - The First Bogatyr" (for children older than 6) Ukrainians depicted as a flying pig, Europe is a shape-shifting monster, abstract raghead acts like an animal (including drinking from a pond), Gringo-"inventor" is a malevolent fraud, (say nothing about jokes about watermelons), protagonist (something like hero) poison his comrades, and his dream-team betray him several times.


Classical German Nazism as well as American Democracy are Western ideologies and, from the Russian point of view are as close to each other as Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola (comparing with Kvas). And, of course, explaining a taste of Kvas to someone who in his whole life tryied only Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola is practically useless.

A Nazi is a Nazi, someone who likes Hitler, follows Hitler style politics and views. Hates Jews, black people, wants Germanic supremacy (which would be weird for a Russian or a Ukrainian).

Mostly what you're talking about is a "fascist".

But I guess it doesn't matter, most people can't tell the difference, it's an emotive word in Russia due to A) WW2 and B) Putin using WW2 as justification for things.

 

[Zavulon]

A Nazi is a Nazi, someone who likes Hitler, follows Hitler style politics and views. Hates Jews, black people, wants Germanic supremacy (which would be weird for a Russian or a Ukrainian).

According this definition even significant part of NSDAP members were not Nazies.

Anyway, Russia is not going to denazificate Ukraine in your understanding of the term. Russia is denazificating Ukraine according it's own understanding of who is Nazi and who is not.
I just explained what do we mean, to prevent misunderstanding.

Mostly what you're talking about is a "fascist".

Mostly "UkroNazies type II" are fascists.

But I guess it doesn't matter, most people can't tell the difference, it's an emotive word in Russia due to A) WW2 and B) Putin using WW2 as justification for things.

Yes, it is emotive word, but, of course, Russia (not only Putin) use historical experience (since time of Northern Crusades) to plan future actions and explain our reasons.
We have pretty good reasons to act as we act now.

 

[frigidweirdo]

According this definition even significant part of NSDAP members were not Nazies.

Anyway, Russia is not going to denazificate Ukraine in your understanding of the term. Russia is denazificating Ukraine according it's own understanding of who is Nazi and who is not.
I just explained what do we mean, to prevent misunderstanding.



Mostly "UkroNazies type II" are fascists.

Yes, it is emotive word, but, of course, Russia (not only Putin) use historical experience (since time of Northern Crusades) to plan future actions and explain our reasons.
We have pretty good reasons to act as we act now.

Well, in any authoritarian regime people will do whatever they can to survive and thrive. China, Russia, even the US, people will align with the powers that be, do things they don't agree with, because they think other things (themselves) are more important.

I'm sure most people who are "Nazis" are fascists. That's generally what people mean.

Same with Russian "Nazis".

 

[Zavulon]

Well, in any authoritarian regime people will do whatever they can to survive and thrive. China, Russia, even the US, people will align with the powers that be, do things they don't agree with, because they think other things (themselves) are more important.

I'm sure most people who are "Nazis" are fascists. That's generally what people mean.

Same with Russian "Nazis".

Russia is too vast and poor to sustain a proper authorian regime. Russian leaders don't send people. They unleash them.


Russians often see a war as a clarification of the things, when the fog of peace is fading and ordinary people achive freedom.
You know, like in unofficial anthem of SMO (and previous conflicts)

It is often depicted as a carnival and a party, joyful and pleasant thing.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Russia is too vast and poor to sustain a proper authorian regime. Russian leaders don't send people. They unleash them.


Russians often see a war as a clarification of the things, when the fog of peace is fading and ordinary people achive freedom.
You know, like in unofficial anthem of SMO (and previous conflicts)

It is often depicted as a carnival and a party, joyful and pleasant thing.

Russia is authoritarian. The power is in the west, and that power is kept with a lot of people accidentally falling out of windows.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Ringo]