Zone1 "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses"

Kinda sorta.

The Jewish perception of resurrection was altered by the first Christians based upon what they witnessed from their encounters with the risen Christ?

The Christian Mutation of Second Temple Judaism

Wright’s second and more extensive argument for the historicity of the resurrection appearances stems from several Christian mutations of the Jewish doctrine of resurrection prevalent at the time of Jesus (Second-Temple Judaism). He shows through a study of the New Testament (particularly the Letters of Paul and the Gospel narratives of the resurrection appearances) that Christianity changed the dominant Jewish view of “resurrection” in five major ways:

1. The Jewish picture of resurrection was a return to the same kind of bodily life as the one experienced before death (except in a new world with the righteous). Christian views always entailed transformation into a very different kind of life – incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual while still maintaining embodiment.35 The Christian view is so different from the Jewish one that Paul has to develop a new term to speak about it – “body spiritual” (soma pneumatikon). In 1 Corinthians 15:44-46 he makes every effort to distinguish the Christian doctrine from the Jewish one: “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body,and there is a spiritual body…..However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.”

2. In Second Temple Judaism, no one was expected to rise from the dead before the initiation of the final age by Yahweh, however Christians claimed that this occurred with Jesus.36

3. No one connected the Messiah to the resurrection or the Jewish doctrine of resurrection to the Messiah prior to Christianity: “There are no traditions about a Messiah being raised to life: most Jews of this period hoped for resurrection, many Jews of this period hoped for a Messiah, but nobody put those two hopes together until the early Christians did so.”37

4. For the Jewish people, the eschatological age was in the future; for Christians the eschatological age had already arrived (and would be completed in the future).38

5. The doctrine of resurrection is central to the earliest writings of Christianity (e.g., all 9 of the early kerygmas), central to the writings of Paul39 and all the Gospel writers,40 and is the interconnecting theme among early Christian doctrines. The doctrine of the resurrection grounds Christology, particularly the doctrine of Christ’s glorification and, in part, the doctrine of Christ’s divinity; it grounds the Christian doctrine of soteriology – “for if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised” (1Cor 15:16); it shows God’s vindication of Jesus’ teaching; it grounds Christian eschatology; and is, in every respect, central to all other doctrines.

Second Temple Judaism does not place the resurrection in any such central role, and does not use it as an interconnecting theme for its doctrines. It is almost secondary in importance to other doctrines concerned with the law and prayer.

So what could explain this radical change? The preaching of Jesus? This is not tenable because Jesus does not put the resurrection at the center of His doctrine, but rather the arrival of the kingdom. Furthermore, He does not connect the resurrection to His Messiahship, and He certainly does not talk about the resurrection being transformed embodiment (or spiritual embodiment, or glorified embodiment), which is evident in the early Christian doctrine. The obvious explanation would be that the many witnesses (e.g., Peter, the Twelve, the 500 disciples, James, the early missionaries to the Gentile Church, and Paul himself) saw the risen Jesus in a transformed embodied state (manifesting at once a spiritual transformation which had the appearance of divine glory and power, and some form of embodiment which was continuous with Jesus’ embodiment in His ministry). This would easily explain all five of the above-mentioned mutations.

The reason the resurrection is a doctrine is that there is a resurrection. As (John 20:27) proves. Jesus rose bodily from the dead. The same body that hung on the Cross. And the same body that today sits at the right hand of the Father. The same body that will open the book of the 7 seals. (Rev. 5:6) "...stood a lamb as it had been slain"

Quantrill
 
The English word "everlasting" does not accurately portray the meaning of the Greek word "aionios". Punishment is for the purpose of correction and it doesn't continue indefinitely. Besides, what would be the point? The wicked are punished for a period of time during a particular age just like the righteous are rewarded during that same age. Thereafter all will be righteous and share the Kingdom of God because THAT is what God wants.

I found this definition of "aionios" to be helpful:

Aiónios (αἰώνιος)
Root Meaning:As the adjective form of αἰών, αἰώνιος should logically carry the sense of "pertaining to an age" or "age-enduring." It does not inherently mean eternal but rather something that endures for the duration of an age, which could be finite or infinite depending on the context.

Theological Context: Origen and Clement of Alexandria, were among the early Christian theologians who interpreted αἰώνιος in terms of finite "ages" rather than unending eternity, unless specifically referring to God or divine attributes. They often emphasized restoration (apokatastasis), suggesting that aiónios punishment was corrective and limited to an age, not eternal.

In contrast, later theological developments (particularly under Augustine) interpreted αἰώνιος as equivalent to "eternal" in a more absolute sense, especially in discussions of eternal punishment versus eternal life."
Even AI understands that the meaning of the word aion evolved and was later translated as eternity particularly under Augustine.

Again, if the Greek word for everlasting means what you say it does, you have no everlasting life. You can't use the same word and try and give it two different meanings.

So, why be a Christian when you have no eternal life?

Quantrill
 
The reason the resurrection is a doctrine is that there is a resurrection. As (John 20:27) proves. Jesus rose bodily from the dead. The same body that hung on the Cross. And the same body that today sits at the right hand of the Father. The same body that will open the book of the 7 seals. (Rev. 5:6) "...stood a lamb as it had been slain"

Quantrill
But it’s not quite the same body. The Christian view is so different from the Jewish one that Paul has to develop a new term to speak about it – “body spiritual” (soma pneumatikon). In 1 Corinthians 15:44-46 he makes every effort to distinguish the Christian doctrine from the Jewish one: “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body,and there is a spiritual body…..However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.”
 
Again, if the Greek word for everlasting means what you say it does, you have no everlasting life. You can't use the same word and try and give it two different meanings.

So, why be a Christian when you have no eternal life?

Quantrill

Hey brother, please read the following and keep an open mind. After all, you don't really believe that Jesus throws people away forever, right?


Jude 1:7 King James Version
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:7 Young's Literal Translation
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

We know that there is no "eternal fire" occurring in the area in and around the ancient ruins of Sodom and Gomorrha, which demonstrates that the use of the word "eternal" in Jude 1:7 is erroneous.

The YLT translation that I shared above is the correct translation. The ancient Koine Greek word that early Bible translators got wrong is "αἰωνίου" or "aiōniou". This word denotes an unspecified period of time that has been mistranslated into words such as "eternal", "everlasting", "forever", and even "world".

Here are scholarly explanations which better define "αἰωνίου" or "aiōniou" (and their derivatives).

Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible: Eternity: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in a philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8) or with various prepositions (Ge. 3:22; 13:15, etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated "forever," means, in itself, no more than "for an indefinitely long period." Thus, me-olam does not mean "from eternity," but "of old" (Ge 6:4, etc.). In the N.T., aion is used as the equivalent of olam.

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages."

Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life;" then "age," "lifetime." It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited) long space of time. The use of the word aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means "long distant uninterrupted time" in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14).

Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46): Everlasting punishment-life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios-it must be admitted (1) that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25), where the Greek is "from aeonian times;" our version giving "since the world began." (Comp. 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:3) -strictly speaking, therefore, the word, as such, apart from its association with any qualifying substantive, implies a vast undefined duration, rather than one in the full sense of the word "infinite."
Triglot Dictionary of Representative Words in Hebrew, Greek and English [this dictionary lists the words in this order: English, Greek, Hebrew] (p. 122): Eternal (see age-lasting). (p. 6): English: age-lasting; Greek, aionios; Hebrew, le-olam.

 
How does the Parable of the Wheat and Tares fit into that discernment?
Jesus said he came to bring division in the same way light divides day from night. The same way the Law, a light to the nations, teaches to differentiate between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, good and evil, heaven and hell, life and death. There will always be enmity between a spirit of truth and a spirit of perversity.

Separating wheat from tares, sheep from goats, angels from devils, fits right into that discernment.
 
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How does the Parable of the Wheat and Tares fit into that discernment?

The ungodly are tossed into the LOF and while it is undoubtedly a punishment it is also corrective and restorative. They are refined and purified.

Here is a verse that describes God as being a refiner of the Jewish people. I believe this principle applies to ALL!

Zechariah 13:9
And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
 
The ungodly are tossed into the LOF and while it is undoubtedly a punishment it is also corrective and restorative. They are refined and purified.
There is no mention of the devil, the beast, the false prophet, hades, anyone or anything being purified and refined in the LOF. They are destroyed permanently. Not as a punishment, but as a result of cause and effect.

Jesus said that he came to set fire to the world. That is the fire that purifies and refines. Wanna make a bet?

 
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people
 
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.
 
I take the verse literally. Is it actually symbolic? Please explain.
On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished. (Is 24:21-22)​

Hm. Punished in heaven. Might this host be the high council? Asaph thinks these “gods” are just a little bit unjust, fattening themselves while ignoring the counsel of their God.

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
“How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”

Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations! (Psalm 82)​

James expresses the same sentiment towards his countrymen (chapter 5).

To be a little more clear, Isaiah actually calls the Israelites heaven and earth.

Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
“Children have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me. (1:2)​

The Song of Moses begins the same way for the benefit of the whole assembly of Israel (Dt 31:30-32:1).

Are you getting it? Heaven and earth are the Israelites: the powers that be and the general assembly.

Does Jesus ever say that eternal life is an eternity spent in a place called heaven? Or does rather say that eternal life is life with the Father?

Heaven may indeed be where God dwells. The corrupt leaders of the earth? Not so much. To unite the two, the corruption must be purged. Hence the Christ, who purges the corruption in the Jewish-Roman Wars and reconciles heaven and earth.
 
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.
The lost sheep OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

You might not realize this but to Jesus, his disciples, followers, and the unknown authors of the Gospels who witnessed the destruction of Judea, the temple, their way of life, and the enslavement, exile, and ruthless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Jewish men women and children "the nations" were the enemy.

"I have not come to bring peace but a sword."

"From his mouth there went a sharp sword with which to smite the nations."

"Take, from my hand, this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it THEY WILL VOMIT AND GO MAD, SUCH IS THE SWORD THAT I AM SENDING AMONG THEM"

Take this cup of wine and drink it, all of you. This is my blood, the blood of the covenant.

"He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

:wine:

Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou has given them blood to drink.
 
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To be a little more clear, Isaiah actually calls the Israelites heaven and earth.

Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
“Children have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me. (1:2)

Thanks but I'm not seeing this as "heavens and earth" being the Israelites. The author is calling on the heavens and earth (all of creation) to listen.
 
Heaven may indeed be where God dwells. The corrupt leaders of the earth? Not so much. To unite the two, the corruption must be purged. Hence the Christ, who purges the corruption in the Jewish-Roman Wars and reconciles heaven and earth.

I think that our only doctrinal difference is that you believe that Jesus will NOT ultimately save all beings whereas I do.
 
The English word "everlasting" does not accurately portray the meaning of the Greek word "aionios". Punishment is for the purpose of correction and it doesn't continue indefinitely. Besides, what would be the point? The wicked are punished for a period of time during a particular age just like the righteous are rewarded during that same age. Thereafter all will be righteous and share the Kingdom of God because THAT is what God wants.

I found this definition of "aionios" to be helpful:

Aiónios (αἰώνιος)
Root Meaning:As the adjective form of αἰών, αἰώνιος should logically carry the sense of "pertaining to an age" or "age-enduring." It does not inherently mean eternal but rather something that endures for the duration of an age, which could be finite or infinite depending on the context.

Theological Context: Origen and Clement of Alexandria, were among the early Christian theologians who interpreted αἰώνιος in terms of finite "ages" rather than unending eternity, unless specifically referring to God or divine attributes. They often emphasized restoration (apokatastasis), suggesting that aiónios punishment was corrective and limited to an age, not eternal.

In contrast, later theological developments (particularly under Augustine) interpreted αἰώνιος as equivalent to "eternal" in a more absolute sense, especially in discussions of eternal punishment versus eternal life."
Even AI understands that the meaning of the word aion evolved and was later translated as eternity particularly under Augustine.
Aióniŏs also means that which in nature is endless, as in the judgment of God (Heb 6:2) and the fire that is judgmet's instrument, as Quantril cited (Mt 25:41).
 
Thanks but I'm not seeing this as "heavens and earth" being the Israelites. The author is calling on the heavens and earth (all of creation) to listen.
Maybe you should read the context. Is heaven a sinful nation? (v 4).

Did you read Deuteronomy 31:30-32:1?

Then Moses spoke the words of this song until they were finished, in the ears of all the assembly of Israel:​
“Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak,​
and let the earth hear the words of my mouth."​
 
15th post
So, why be a Christian when you have no eternal life?
For the same reason God doesn’t want us to love him for what he can do for us but rather for who he is. Doing good is its own reward. Christianity teaches to do good.

My understanding standing of what Jesus taught is that everlasting life begins now, not at death.

Loving God is its own reward.
 
The reason the resurrection is a doctrine is that there is a resurrection. As (John 20:27) proves. Jesus rose bodily from the dead. The same body that hung on the Cross. And the same body that today sits at the right hand of the Father. The same body that will open the book of the 7 seals. (Rev. 5:6) "...stood a lamb as it had been slain"

Quantrill
And you know that body wasn't exactly human, according to the narrative, right? It was divine.

After his resurrection, no one recognized him when they saw him. His body had transformed into the form of a servant, according to Philippians. After death, it returned to the divine.
 
The ungodly are tossed into the LOF and while it is undoubtedly a punishment it is also corrective and restorative. They are refined and purified.

Here is a verse that describes God as being a refiner of the Jewish people. I believe this principle applies to ALL!

Zechariah 13:9
And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
I think any conversations about one’s fate or the fate of others is pointless. God does what God wants. He’s not bound by any of our judgements. There are way too many unknowns. We do not have perfect knowledge. God does.

The most anyone can say about these kind of parables is that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure.
 

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