Zone1 "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses"

[Quantrill]

Good question. I don't have a firm belief one way or the other. I do know that people can and do lose their faith, but were they actually "saved"?

Please know that I believe that the proverbial "Lake of Fire" (LOF) is only temporary and, ultimately, for the purpose of restoration. I believe that faithful Christians go straight to Heaven upon death. For that matter I suspect that many non-Christians also go straight to Heaven. The wicked, however, go through the LOF "process" for their own good in order for them to be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Then Satan and his angels will be restored? (Matt. 25:41)

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[FoghornLeghorn]

Why? And if resurrection speaks to the physical body, why don't we as Christians get our bodies back? (Matt. 27:51-53)

Quantrill

Maybe we will, but not necessarily immediately after we die as our spirit goes to God. That's what I meant to communicate in my earlier post.

 

[FoghornLeghorn]

Then Satan and his angels will be restored?

They will be refined and transformed in the LOF, or so I believe. Am I mistaken?

 

[Quantrill]

They will be refined and transformed in the LOF, or so I believe. Am I mistaken?

Yes, you are mistaken. There is no salvation offered to Satan and his angels. Salvation is only offered to man. The Lake of Fire is everlasting, not temporary. (Matt. 25:41) Satan and his angels are there forever. And any who are cast into the Lake of Fire are there forever. (Rev. 20:10) (Rev. 20:14-15)

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[FoghornLeghorn]

Yes, you are mistaken. There is no salvation offered to Satan and his angels. Salvation is only offered to man. The Lake of Fire is everlasting, not temporary. (Matt. 25:41) Satan and his angels are there forever. And any who are cast into the Lake of Fire are there forever. (Rev. 20:10) (Rev. 20:14-15)

Quantrill

I believe the verses in most English translations about "eternal" torment, etc., are MISTRANSLATIONS. Here is what I believe to be a more accurate translation from Young's Literal Translation Matthew 25:41: Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers.

So time in the LOF is for a period of time, not forever.

Also, Paul told us that every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord in Philippians and then in Romans he says that anybody that does confess (and believes in Christ's resurrection) will be saved!

Philippians 2:10-11
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Hafar1014]

I think I learn something from the Bible almost every day. What I understand Paul to be saying is that death reigned from Adam and through the Mosiac Law of Moses which ended with Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. That ended the Mosaic Age and ushered in the age of grace.

Prior to Jesus's sacrifice, people were DEAD in the grave. Thereafter, people continued to live but in the spirit rather than the flesh.

Feedback?

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Sin didnt come into the world morality did. There is no original sin or fall of man. Its Gods teaching morals and the trial. There is no Satan or hell. These are Christian distortions

 

[norwegen]

I think I learn something from the Bible almost every day. What I understand Paul to be saying is that death reigned from Adam and through the Mosiac Law of Moses which ended with Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. That ended the Mosaic Age and ushered in the age of grace.

Prior to Jesus's sacrifice, people were DEAD in the grave. Thereafter, people continued to live but in the spirit rather than the flesh.

Feedback?

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Yes, after Adam fell from grace, those people were dead. From Adam to Moses - all the way up to Christ - they were dead.

With Christ, a few of them found life. They were reconciled to their God, abandoning their idols and waywardness.

Most of them, however, refused to believe, and soon they lost everything. They were even forced to abandon Moses.

 

[FoghornLeghorn]

Most of them, however, refused to believe, and soon they lost everything.

They didn't lose "everything" because Jesus NEVER gives up on anybody.

Luke 15:4
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?"

 

[norwegen]

They didn't lose "everything" because Jesus NEVER gives up on anybody.

Luke 15:4
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?"

Guess who Jesus was talking to in that passage.

I'll help you. He was talking to the few who had found life, not the many who lost everything.

 

[FoghornLeghorn]

Guess who Jesus was talking to in that passage.

I'll help you. He was talking to the few who had found life, not the many who lost everything.

Jesus was sent to unite ALL THINGS to God. Jesus does NOT fail.

Ephesians 1:9-10
making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Matthew 16:18
Young's Literal Translation
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

 

[norwegen]

Jesus was sent to unite ALL THINGS to God. Jesus does NOT fail.

Ephesians 1:9-10
making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

No, he didn't say ALL THINGS. He said all things in heaven and on earth.

Do you know what heaven and earth were?

 

[Quantrill]

I believe the verses in most English translations about "eternal" torment, etc., are MISTRANSLATIONS. Here is what I believe to be a more accurate translation from Young's Literal Translation Matthew 25:41: Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers.

So time in the LOF is for a period of time, not forever.

Also, Paul told us that every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord in Philippians and then in Romans he says that anybody that does confess (and believes in Christ's resurrection) will be saved!

Philippians 2:10-11
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Well, concerning (Matt. 25:41) "...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

If everlasting there doesn't mean everlasting, then you have no everlasting life.

(Matt. 19:29) "...shall inherit everlasting life." Same Greek word.

(John 3:16) "...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Same Greek word.

(John 5:24) " ....He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...." Same Greek word.

(2 Thess. 1:8-9) "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" Same Greek word.

etc. etc. etc. etc.

Concerning (Philippians 2:10-11) Every knee will bow, and confess that Jesus is Lord, no matter who or where they are. That is not a testimony resulting in salvation. It's a testimony from all, both the redeemed and the damned, and from Satan and his angels also, acknowledging that Jesus is Lord. In that day, the day of salvation based on the Gospel is passed. The redeemed confess willingly. The damned do it as they have no choice.

Just like in (Rev. 6:16-17) The people on earth recognize that all this hell is coming upon them from Jesus. It doesn't matter that they believe it is Jesus and Who He is. And they ask instead for the mountains and rocks to hide them "from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Concerning (Rom. 10:9): That confession does result in salvation. And Paul goes further in (Rom. 10:10) explaining the roll of belief and confession. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Before any confession is made, there is belief from the heart. And if that person all of a sudden died before confessing it with his mouth, he is still declared righteous and heaven is his home. But to live a Godly life on earth, a saved life, where God is daily delivering one from the evils of this world, confession is necessary. An outward profession.

The damned who confess that Jesus is Lord in that day, don't do it because of belief in their heart. Belief no longer plays a role. They are there in the Lake of fire or awaiting to get tossed into that fire. They confess because they cannot do other wise. Their confession is not to be compared to the believers confession.

And understand that the Devil and his angels already know who God and Jesus is. That doesn't matter. They knew before they rebelled against Him. No salvation for the angels.

Have you ever noticed that neither the Devil or demons ever speak of God in the Bible, disrespectfully. Funny isn't it, only puny fallen egotistical man mocks God and Christ.

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[FoghornLeghorn]

Do you know what heaven and earth were?

I take the verse literally. Is it actually symbolic? Please explain.

 

[FoghornLeghorn]

If everlasting there doesn't mean everlasting, then you have no everlasting life.

(Matt. 19:29) "...shall inherit everlasting life." Same Greek word.

(John 3:16) "...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Same Greek word.

(John 5:24) " ....He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...." Same Greek word.

God works on us in ages. The verses describe some people being punished for the duration of an age while others are rewarded with life during that same age. In the end, however, ALL will be with God because that is what God wants.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[Quantrill]

God works on us in ages. The verses describe some people being punished for the duration of an age while others are rewarded with life during that same age. In the end, however, ALL will be with God because that is what God wants.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

You can say whatever you like. I just showed you that if 'everlasting' means what you say it means, then you have no everlasting life.

Same Greek word.

Concerning (Rom. 5:18) Jesus one act does lead to justification for all men. It doesn't mean all are saved. But His one act is sufficient for all to be saved.

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[FoghornLeghorn]

You can say whatever you like. I just showed you that if 'everlasting' means what you say it means, then you have no everlasting life.

Does God want ALL to be saved?
Does Got get what God wants?
The scriptures say "yes" to both.
What do you think?

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

 

[FoghornLeghorn]

On second thought I'm probably in error to use Ephesians 1:11 as Paul was describing him and his fellow Christians and not all people.

 

[ding]

Was Jesus physical body resurrected? (John 20:27)

Quantrill

Kinda sorta.

The Jewish perception of resurrection was altered by the first Christians based upon what they witnessed from their encounters with the risen Christ?

The Christian Mutation of Second Temple Judaism

Wright’s second and more extensive argument for the historicity of the resurrection appearances stems from several Christian mutations of the Jewish doctrine of resurrection prevalent at the time of Jesus (Second-Temple Judaism). He shows through a study of the New Testament (particularly the Letters of Paul and the Gospel narratives of the resurrection appearances) that Christianity changed the dominant Jewish view of “resurrection” in five major ways:

1. The Jewish picture of resurrection was a return to the same kind of bodily life as the one experienced before death (except in a new world with the righteous). Christian views always entailed transformation into a very different kind of life – incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual while still maintaining embodiment.35 The Christian view is so different from the Jewish one that Paul has to develop a new term to speak about it – “body spiritual” (soma pneumatikon). In 1 Corinthians 15:44-46 he makes every effort to distinguish the Christian doctrine from the Jewish one: “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body,and there is a spiritual body…..However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.”

2. In Second Temple Judaism, no one was expected to rise from the dead before the initiation of the final age by Yahweh, however Christians claimed that this occurred with Jesus.36

3. No one connected the Messiah to the resurrection or the Jewish doctrine of resurrection to the Messiah prior to Christianity: “There are no traditions about a Messiah being raised to life: most Jews of this period hoped for resurrection, many Jews of this period hoped for a Messiah, but nobody put those two hopes together until the early Christians did so.”37

4. For the Jewish people, the eschatological age was in the future; for Christians the eschatological age had already arrived (and would be completed in the future).38

5. The doctrine of resurrection is central to the earliest writings of Christianity (e.g., all 9 of the early kerygmas), central to the writings of Paul39 and all the Gospel writers,40 and is the interconnecting theme among early Christian doctrines. The doctrine of the resurrection grounds Christology, particularly the doctrine of Christ’s glorification and, in part, the doctrine of Christ’s divinity; it grounds the Christian doctrine of soteriology – “for if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised” (1Cor 15:16); it shows God’s vindication of Jesus’ teaching; it grounds Christian eschatology; and is, in every respect, central to all other doctrines.

Second Temple Judaism does not place the resurrection in any such central role, and does not use it as an interconnecting theme for its doctrines. It is almost secondary in importance to other doctrines concerned with the law and prayer.

So what could explain this radical change? The preaching of Jesus? This is not tenable because Jesus does not put the resurrection at the center of His doctrine, but rather the arrival of the kingdom. Furthermore, He does not connect the resurrection to His Messiahship, and He certainly does not talk about the resurrection being transformed embodiment (or spiritual embodiment, or glorified embodiment), which is evident in the early Christian doctrine. The obvious explanation would be that the many witnesses (e.g., Peter, the Twelve, the 500 disciples, James, the early missionaries to the Gentile Church, and Paul himself) saw the risen Jesus in a transformed embodied state (manifesting at once a spiritual transformation which had the appearance of divine glory and power, and some form of embodiment which was continuous with Jesus’ embodiment in His ministry). This would easily explain all five of the above-mentioned mutations.

 

[Quantrill]

Does God want ALL to be saved?
Does Got get what God wants?
The scriptures say "yes" to both.
What do you think?

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

That is no response to what I said. I said, with your interpretation of 'everlasting' you have no everlasting life. So why are you a Christian if you have no eternal life?

(1 Tim. 2:4) "Who will have all men to be saved, land to come unto the knowledge of the truth." That all men won't, takes nothing away from God. He has provided for all.

(2 peter 3:9) God is not willing that any should perish. Thus He provides for all. But many, most, will perish. God's will was done in providing the way. That man rejects that takes nothing away from God.

(Isaiah 46;10) Yes, God will do all His pleasure and His counsel shall stand.

(Isaiah 55:11) Yes, God's Word will accomplish that which He pleases.

(Eph. 1:11) Yes God works all things according to His will.

Quantrill

 

[FoghornLeghorn]

That is no response to what I said. I said, with your interpretation of 'everlasting' you have no everlasting life. So why are you a Christian if you have no eternal life?

The English word "everlasting" does not accurately portray the meaning of the Greek word "aionios". Punishment is for the purpose of correction and it doesn't continue indefinitely. Besides, what would be the point? The wicked are punished for a period of time during a particular age just like the righteous are rewarded during that same age. Thereafter all will be righteous and share the Kingdom of God because THAT is what God wants.

I found this definition of "aionios" to be helpful:

Aiónios (αἰώνιος)
Root Meaning:As the adjective form of αἰών, αἰώνιος should logically carry the sense of "pertaining to an age" or "age-enduring." It does not inherently mean eternal but rather something that endures for the duration of an age, which could be finite or infinite depending on the context.

Theological Context: Origen and Clement of Alexandria, were among the early Christian theologians who interpreted αἰώνιος in terms of finite "ages" rather than unending eternity, unless specifically referring to God or divine attributes. They often emphasized restoration (apokatastasis), suggesting that aiónios punishment was corrective and limited to an age, not eternal.

In contrast, later theological developments (particularly under Augustine) interpreted αἰώνιος as equivalent to "eternal" in a more absolute sense, especially in discussions of eternal punishment versus eternal life."
Even AI understands that the meaning of the word aion evolved and was later translated as eternity particularly under Augustine.