Wow! 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths.......

When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.

Zika is Racist!!
Ebola- RACIST!!

Right?
Is Zika called the Brazilian virus?

If we started calling the Chinese virus the Wuhan virus would that satisfy you? Or still RACIST!?
Yes, still racist. Why not call it the coronavirus, since that is its name?

That is not it's name- it's actually Covid 19 and most have adopted that moniker.

Regardless, calling it the "Wuhan virus" or the "Chinese Virus" is not racist. Chinese is not a race, it's a nation.

Pandemics have a long history of being named after their place of origin. This is simply more Covfefe-16.....:rofl:
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.

Zika is Racist!!
Ebola- RACIST!!

Right?
Is Zika called the Brazilian virus?

If we started calling the Chinese virus the Wuhan virus would that satisfy you? Or still RACIST!?


Don't try to appease that creature!

Please Zander, don't be so weak.
You're a big meanie!


...and you are a big piece of s***
 
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw

The Coronavirus contributed to the death but the underlying condition the person was suffering from was most likely the cause of death or just heart failure...
Right, but as I said, if they wouldn't have contracted covid-19, they'd still be alive.
Not sure that is true. A huge majority of the victims had severe diseases- heart failure, cancer, lung diseases, etc. over half had 3 diseases at the same time.

I don't want to see anyone die prematurely, especially someone's loved elder, but the governmental overreaction to this disease is causing more damage than the disease.

Coronavirus 19 or Covid-19 attacks the respiratory system causing stress to the rest of the body and someone healthy can usually survive it but someone with Cancer or other conditions are less likely which is why they are listing Covid as the main cause in these cases.

Are all cases Covid?

Most likely not and some will be misdiagnosed and later will be changed to actual cause.

As for hysteria it is clear it has gotten out of hand but let not pretend this virus is not dangerous because it is but how it is being handled or mishandled is also alarming...
 
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw

The Coronavirus contributed to the death but the underlying condition the person was suffering from was most likely the cause of death or just heart failure...
Right, but as I said, if they wouldn't have contracted covid-19, they'd still be alive.
Not sure that is true. A huge majority of the victims had severe diseases- heart failure, cancer, lung diseases, etc. over half had 3 diseases at the same time.

I don't want to see anyone die prematurely, especially someone's loved elder, but the governmental overreaction to this disease is causing more damage than the disease.
Again, where did you get your medical degree?
And where did YOU get YOURS, ya knucklehead? Please leave this thread, you're making yourself look more and more like a fool with each post, Brucie. Do us ALL a favor and GO AWAY. Thank you.
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.

Zika is Racist!!
Ebola- RACIST!!

Right?
Is Zika called the Brazilian virus?

If we started calling the Chinese virus the Wuhan virus would that satisfy you? Or still RACIST!?
Yes, still racist. Why not call it the coronavirus, since that is its name?

That is not it's name- it's actually Covid 19 and most have adopted that moniker.

Regardless, calling it the "Wuhan virus" or the "Chinese Virus" is not racist. Chinese is not a race, it's a nation.

Pandemics have a long history of being named after their place of origin. This is simply more Covfefe-16.....:rofl:
The VIRUS is called coronavirus (or novel coronavirus). The DISEASE is called covid-19. If you look at my posts, I use those terms distinctly, not interchangeably. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Chinese is not a race -- how do you define a race? And the "Spanish" flu that killed millions in 1918-1919 wasn't from Spain.
 
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw

The Coronavirus contributed to the death but the underlying condition the person was suffering from was most likely the cause of death or just heart failure...
Right, but as I said, if they wouldn't have contracted covid-19, they'd still be alive.
Not sure that is true. A huge majority of the victims had severe diseases- heart failure, cancer, lung diseases, etc. over half had 3 diseases at the same time.

I don't want to see anyone die prematurely, especially someone's loved elder, but the governmental overreaction to this disease is causing more damage than the disease.

Coronavirus 19 or Covid-19 attacks the respiratory system causing stress to the rest of the body and someone healthy can usually survive it but someone with Cancer or other conditions are less likely which is why they are listing Covid as the main cause in these cases.

Are all cases Covid?

Most likely not and some will be misdiagnosed and later will be changed to actual cause.

As for hysteria it is clear it has gotten out of hand but let not pretend this virus is not dangerous because it is but how it is being handled or mishandled is also alarming...
And YOUR medical degree is from what institution... ?
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.

Zika is Racist!!
Ebola- RACIST!!

Right?
Is Zika called the Brazilian virus?

If we started calling the Chinese virus the Wuhan virus would that satisfy you? Or still RACIST!?
Yes, still racist. Why not call it the coronavirus, since that is its name?

The WHO would prefer you to call it COVID-19 and not Coronavirus-19.

So before you lecture anyone about the correct name to use maybe you should use it to show everyone you know what the hell you are writing about!

Also calling it from the region it is from is as racist as calling Measles German which is not racist at all except to race baiting morons!
 
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw

The Coronavirus contributed to the death but the underlying condition the person was suffering from was most likely the cause of death or just heart failure...
Right, but as I said, if they wouldn't have contracted covid-19, they'd still be alive.
Not sure that is true. A huge majority of the victims had severe diseases- heart failure, cancer, lung diseases, etc. over half had 3 diseases at the same time.

I don't want to see anyone die prematurely, especially someone's loved elder, but the governmental overreaction to this disease is causing more damage than the disease.
Again, where did you get your medical degree?
And where did YOU get YOURS, ya knucklehead? Please leave this thread, you're making yourself look more and more like a fool with each post, Brucie. Do us ALL a favor and GO AWAY. Thank you.
If I make a claim about a medical issue, I usually cite a source or sources. And if you find an instance where I did not, bring it to my attention, and I will either back up what I said with evidence, or withdraw my claim. Can you do the same?
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.

Zika is Racist!!
Ebola- RACIST!!

Right?
Is Zika called the Brazilian virus?

If we started calling the Chinese virus the Wuhan virus would that satisfy you? Or still RACIST!?
Yes, still racist. Why not call it the coronavirus, since that is its name?

The WHO would prefer you to call it COVID-19 and not Coronavirus-19.

So before you lecture anyone about the correct name to use maybe you should use it to show everyone you know what the hell you are writing about!

Also calling it from the region it is from is as racist as calling Measles German which is not racist at all except to race baiting morons!
Again, the name of the VIRUS is coronavirus. The name of the DISEASE is covid-19. I've been using both terms correctly. If I've used the wrong term somewhere, please let me know.
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.
The Chinese did carry this virus around the world.
It started in China. That's true. But people from all over carried it around the world. That's what happens when you have a global society.

We've always had a global society.
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw
You're simply wrong, and the Telegraph article you cited proves it. The virus was probably a contributing factor in most of the deaths in Italy. In other words, if they had not contracted covid-19, most of them would still be alive. Here are some extracts from the article:

“The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46,” Prof Ricciardi says. “So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality.”

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions. Experts have also warned against making direct comparisons between countries due to discrepancies in testing.

But there are other factors that may have contributed to Italy’s fatality rates, experts say. This includes a high rate of smoking and pollution - the majority of deaths have been in the northern region Lombardy region, which is notorious for poor air quality.


You can read the whole article here:

Well, we're not going to argue with you. Or at least I'm not.

The official from Italy said specifically that many of the people on the list, had died with Corona, not specifically because of Corona. That means, exactly that. The statistics coming out of Italy, are not excluding people who died from other causes. Only that they had Corona.

If I have heart failure, and I die from heart failure, and I happen to have Corona when I die of heart failure... Corona didn't do that. Heart failure did.

So, I am inclined to believe that it is possible the numbers are exaggerated in Italy. You disagree, that's fine.
Could it be possible, in your universe, if your already-compromised heart failed as the result of a cascading escalation of health issues which resulted from contracting covid-19, and that the virus CONTRIBUTED to your death? Do you claim that they are completely unrelated? You simply don't want to admit that this pandemic is real.

Do not put words in my mouth. I never said the Pandemic isn't real. You are just a liar that wants to claim others believe things they don't, because you have nothing of value to add to this conversation.

(how do you like it, when people make up stuff about you?)

Anything can contribute to your death. If you get shot, and are dying, you could contract Corona just before being shot, or during your time in the hospital while dying. That doesn't mean Corona killed you, over being shot.

That's all the guy from Italy was pointing out.

By any measure the death rate in Italy is extremely high, relative to the death rates we've seen from Corona elsewhere in the world.

That suggests two possibilities.

One, they are attributing far more to Corona, than people who are actually dying from Corona.

Two, socialized health care in Italy sucks many times worse than we could imagine.

Either of those are acceptable possibilities.
I apologize for assuming that you don't believe this pandemic is real. I hate it when people put words in my mouth, and I don't want to do it to anyone else. So, now that we've established that this pandemic IS real, I don't agree that there are only the two possibilities that you listed which explain the situation in Italy. If you read the Telegraph article (or even just the extracts that I excerpted), you'd see that there are other factors: Italy has an older population, which tends to have more health issues, many are smokers, there is worse air pollution, etc.

Agreed.


The difference between Italy and the rest of the EU, as far as percentage of aged population, is minor.

By that logic, I would assume Japan should be the worst hit in the world.

A factor? Sure. Not sure if it's as important as claimed.


And as far as air quality, again, Italy might be worse on average than the rest of the EU, but the difference is exceptionally small relative to much worse places.

Wouldn't China be the worst?

I don't think that such minor differences between Italy and other first world countries, could make that large of a difference in Corona deaths.
 
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw
You're simply wrong, and the Telegraph article you cited proves it. The virus was probably a contributing factor in most of the deaths in Italy. In other words, if they had not contracted covid-19, most of them would still be alive. Here are some extracts from the article:

“The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46,” Prof Ricciardi says. “So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality.”

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions. Experts have also warned against making direct comparisons between countries due to discrepancies in testing.

But there are other factors that may have contributed to Italy’s fatality rates, experts say. This includes a high rate of smoking and pollution - the majority of deaths have been in the northern region Lombardy region, which is notorious for poor air quality.


You can read the whole article here:

Well, we're not going to argue with you. Or at least I'm not.

The official from Italy said specifically that many of the people on the list, had died with Corona, not specifically because of Corona. That means, exactly that. The statistics coming out of Italy, are not excluding people who died from other causes. Only that they had Corona.

If I have heart failure, and I die from heart failure, and I happen to have Corona when I die of heart failure... Corona didn't do that. Heart failure did.

So, I am inclined to believe that it is possible the numbers are exaggerated in Italy. You disagree, that's fine.

But it doesn’t really work like that.

Each stressor on the body’s systems lowers the bar for morbidity. So one with diabetes, heart disease and COPD for example is very vulnerable to any additional stressors.

Someone with heart disease or lung disease can get along well for years with medical management. But they get the virus, it attacks their already weakened lungs, and they go down. What killed them? They would not have died at that time had the virus not infected them.
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.
The Chinese did carry this virus around the world.
It started in China. That's true. But people from all over carried it around the world. That's what happens when you have a global society.

We've always had a global society.
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw
You're simply wrong, and the Telegraph article you cited proves it. The virus was probably a contributing factor in most of the deaths in Italy. In other words, if they had not contracted covid-19, most of them would still be alive. Here are some extracts from the article:

“The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46,” Prof Ricciardi says. “So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality.”

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions. Experts have also warned against making direct comparisons between countries due to discrepancies in testing.

But there are other factors that may have contributed to Italy’s fatality rates, experts say. This includes a high rate of smoking and pollution - the majority of deaths have been in the northern region Lombardy region, which is notorious for poor air quality.


You can read the whole article here:

Well, we're not going to argue with you. Or at least I'm not.

The official from Italy said specifically that many of the people on the list, had died with Corona, not specifically because of Corona. That means, exactly that. The statistics coming out of Italy, are not excluding people who died from other causes. Only that they had Corona.

If I have heart failure, and I die from heart failure, and I happen to have Corona when I die of heart failure... Corona didn't do that. Heart failure did.

So, I am inclined to believe that it is possible the numbers are exaggerated in Italy. You disagree, that's fine.
Could it be possible, in your universe, if your already-compromised heart failed as the result of a cascading escalation of health issues which resulted from contracting covid-19, and that the virus CONTRIBUTED to your death? Do you claim that they are completely unrelated? You simply don't want to admit that this pandemic is real.

Do not put words in my mouth. I never said the Pandemic isn't real. You are just a liar that wants to claim others believe things they don't, because you have nothing of value to add to this conversation.

(how do you like it, when people make up stuff about you?)

Anything can contribute to your death. If you get shot, and are dying, you could contract Corona just before being shot, or during your time in the hospital while dying. That doesn't mean Corona killed you, over being shot.

That's all the guy from Italy was pointing out.

By any measure the death rate in Italy is extremely high, relative to the death rates we've seen from Corona elsewhere in the world.

That suggests two possibilities.

One, they are attributing far more to Corona, than people who are actually dying from Corona.

Two, socialized health care in Italy sucks many times worse than we could imagine.

Either of those are acceptable possibilities.
I apologize for assuming that you don't believe this pandemic is real. I hate it when people put words in my mouth, and I don't want to do it to anyone else. So, now that we've established that this pandemic IS real, I don't agree that there are only the two possibilities that you listed which explain the situation in Italy. If you read the Telegraph article (or even just the extracts that I excerpted), you'd see that there are other factors: Italy has an older population, which tends to have more health issues, many are smokers, there is worse air pollution, etc.

Agreed.


The difference between Italy and the rest of the EU, as far as percentage of aged population, is minor.

By that logic, I would assume Japan should be the worst hit in the world.

A factor? Sure. Not sure if it's as important as claimed.


And as far as air quality, again, Italy might be worse on average than the rest of the EU, but the difference is exceptionally small relative to much worse places.

Wouldn't China be the worst?

I don't think that such minor differences between Italy and other first world countries, could make that large of a difference in Corona deaths.
Japan is a fairly insular society, and I believe that they reacted to the pandemic quickly, so that may have mitigated the impact. Maybe we can agree that we just don't know enough about the whole thing to really say a lot about this for sure right now. OK?
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.

Zika is Racist!!
Ebola- RACIST!!

Right?
Is Zika called the Brazilian virus?

If we started calling the Chinese virus the Wuhan virus would that satisfy you? Or still RACIST!?


Don't try to appease that creature!

Please Zander, don't be so weak.
You're a big meanie!


...and you are a big piece of s***
Again, incisive! Cogent! Your logic is impressive!
 
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw
You're simply wrong, and the Telegraph article you cited proves it. The virus was probably a contributing factor in most of the deaths in Italy. In other words, if they had not contracted covid-19, most of them would still be alive. Here are some extracts from the article:

“The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46,” Prof Ricciardi says. “So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality.”

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions. Experts have also warned against making direct comparisons between countries due to discrepancies in testing.

But there are other factors that may have contributed to Italy’s fatality rates, experts say. This includes a high rate of smoking and pollution - the majority of deaths have been in the northern region Lombardy region, which is notorious for poor air quality.


You can read the whole article here:

Well, we're not going to argue with you. Or at least I'm not.

The official from Italy said specifically that many of the people on the list, had died with Corona, not specifically because of Corona. That means, exactly that. The statistics coming out of Italy, are not excluding people who died from other causes. Only that they had Corona.

If I have heart failure, and I die from heart failure, and I happen to have Corona when I die of heart failure... Corona didn't do that. Heart failure did.

So, I am inclined to believe that it is possible the numbers are exaggerated in Italy. You disagree, that's fine.

But it doesn’t really work like that.

Each stressor on the body’s systems lowers the bar for morbidity. So one with diabetes, heart disease and COPD for example is very vulnerable to any additional stressors.

Someone with heart disease or lung disease can get along well for years with medical management. But they get the virus, it attacks their already weakened lungs, and they go down. What killed them? They would not have died at that time had the virus not infected them.

I agree with the above statement.

I also know that some people get Corona, have negligible symptoms. Is it not at all possible that someone already in the process of dying, could catch Corona on the way out?

Yes, I understand, some people my not be dying at all, and have an illness that makes them susceptible to additional illness, and that illness could cause death.
I agree with your statement.
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.


No!

YOU are a pig.
What's your evidence? I called you a racist pig based on your post about Chinese workers, who you implied brought the coronavirus into Italy, with no evidence whatsoever. That is plainly racism, and a racist by definition is a pig, therefore, you're a racist pig (at the risk of being redundant). So let's see YOUR evidence.

You are a loudmouth pig!

An ignorant pig!

Loser.... Yawn.
Yep, Brucie IS losing BIGLY on this thread. He MAY consider JUST GETTING OFF this thread, before he loses even more. Thank you.
Gee, bluzman, you really dislike everything I say! And I thought we were bonding over at that other comedian thread... Oh, well.
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.
The Chinese did carry this virus around the world.
It started in China. That's true. But people from all over carried it around the world. That's what happens when you have a global society.

We've always had a global society.
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw
You're simply wrong, and the Telegraph article you cited proves it. The virus was probably a contributing factor in most of the deaths in Italy. In other words, if they had not contracted covid-19, most of them would still be alive. Here are some extracts from the article:

“The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46,” Prof Ricciardi says. “So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality.”

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions. Experts have also warned against making direct comparisons between countries due to discrepancies in testing.

But there are other factors that may have contributed to Italy’s fatality rates, experts say. This includes a high rate of smoking and pollution - the majority of deaths have been in the northern region Lombardy region, which is notorious for poor air quality.


You can read the whole article here:

Well, we're not going to argue with you. Or at least I'm not.

The official from Italy said specifically that many of the people on the list, had died with Corona, not specifically because of Corona. That means, exactly that. The statistics coming out of Italy, are not excluding people who died from other causes. Only that they had Corona.

If I have heart failure, and I die from heart failure, and I happen to have Corona when I die of heart failure... Corona didn't do that. Heart failure did.

So, I am inclined to believe that it is possible the numbers are exaggerated in Italy. You disagree, that's fine.
Could it be possible, in your universe, if your already-compromised heart failed as the result of a cascading escalation of health issues which resulted from contracting covid-19, and that the virus CONTRIBUTED to your death? Do you claim that they are completely unrelated? You simply don't want to admit that this pandemic is real.

Do not put words in my mouth. I never said the Pandemic isn't real. You are just a liar that wants to claim others believe things they don't, because you have nothing of value to add to this conversation.

(how do you like it, when people make up stuff about you?)

Anything can contribute to your death. If you get shot, and are dying, you could contract Corona just before being shot, or during your time in the hospital while dying. That doesn't mean Corona killed you, over being shot.

That's all the guy from Italy was pointing out.

By any measure the death rate in Italy is extremely high, relative to the death rates we've seen from Corona elsewhere in the world.

That suggests two possibilities.

One, they are attributing far more to Corona, than people who are actually dying from Corona.

Two, socialized health care in Italy sucks many times worse than we could imagine.

Either of those are acceptable possibilities.
I apologize for assuming that you don't believe this pandemic is real. I hate it when people put words in my mouth, and I don't want to do it to anyone else. So, now that we've established that this pandemic IS real, I don't agree that there are only the two possibilities that you listed which explain the situation in Italy. If you read the Telegraph article (or even just the extracts that I excerpted), you'd see that there are other factors: Italy has an older population, which tends to have more health issues, many are smokers, there is worse air pollution, etc.

Agreed.


The difference between Italy and the rest of the EU, as far as percentage of aged population, is minor.

By that logic, I would assume Japan should be the worst hit in the world.

A factor? Sure. Not sure if it's as important as claimed.


And as far as air quality, again, Italy might be worse on average than the rest of the EU, but the difference is exceptionally small relative to much worse places.

Wouldn't China be the worst?

I don't think that such minor differences between Italy and other first world countries, could make that large of a difference in Corona deaths.
Japan is a fairly insular society, and I believe that they reacted to the pandemic quickly, so that may have mitigated the impact. Maybe we can agree that we just don't know enough about the whole thing to really say a lot about this for sure right now. OK?

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think where the rub comes for some in our society is, how much long term damage are we doing, that may not be producing any positive benefits for the country?

And that is actually where the real question is.

A lock down simply can't last forever. It just simply can't. Is what we are doing, actually helpful? And I don't have an answer to that.
 
By population comparison....Italy with a population of 60 million has lost 12,000 lives.
By an equivalent ratio, about 360,000 would have died in China.

...and I can not understand....I simply do not comprehend why aren't they using chloroquine. ?????????????

what are they waiting for?

to have all of Italy wiped out.
 
When will Italy start using chloroquine for their coronavirus patients?

I mean....seriously

what are they waiting for????:dunno:

I just don't understand it.
Good question.
They'll be reconsidering having 30,000 Chinese migrant workers
in their garment factories from now on.


Absolutely!

Hope they learn their lessons....they wanted all their clothes to say Made in Italy.... instead to Made in China...so they brought in thousands of Chinese workers.

And that's where Italy is now...because of their stupidity ...they are in the midst of Hell.

Oh well...later rather than sooner ....they will understand (we hope)
As if Chinese people somehow uniquely carry the virus. You're a racist pig.
The Chinese did carry this virus around the world.
It started in China. That's true. But people from all over carried it around the world. That's what happens when you have a global society.

We've always had a global society.
Are not from Covid 19. Surprised? I'm not. The entire world is screaming FIRE in a movie theater, and there's no fire.

This article below sheds a great deal of light on why Italy has such a high reported "death rate" from Covid-19.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause

Report shows up to 88% of Italy’s alleged Covid19 deaths could be misattributed


The way Italy registers deaths explains their increased coronavirus case/fatality ratio, according to one expert and a report from Italy’s National Institute of Health (ISS).

Citing this report (in English here), Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health said:

The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus […] On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three,”
This has been reported widely, it was even in The Telegraph, and yet no one seems to be engaging with it.

The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03:
I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”

here is the article- https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/23...m-LuAMIPzzMqYb57qoQrYeqMrfI81YHk4T0aXEEQUQ9Nw
You're simply wrong, and the Telegraph article you cited proves it. The virus was probably a contributing factor in most of the deaths in Italy. In other words, if they had not contracted covid-19, most of them would still be alive. Here are some extracts from the article:

“The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46,” Prof Ricciardi says. “So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality.”

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions. Experts have also warned against making direct comparisons between countries due to discrepancies in testing.

But there are other factors that may have contributed to Italy’s fatality rates, experts say. This includes a high rate of smoking and pollution - the majority of deaths have been in the northern region Lombardy region, which is notorious for poor air quality.


You can read the whole article here:

Well, we're not going to argue with you. Or at least I'm not.

The official from Italy said specifically that many of the people on the list, had died with Corona, not specifically because of Corona. That means, exactly that. The statistics coming out of Italy, are not excluding people who died from other causes. Only that they had Corona.

If I have heart failure, and I die from heart failure, and I happen to have Corona when I die of heart failure... Corona didn't do that. Heart failure did.

So, I am inclined to believe that it is possible the numbers are exaggerated in Italy. You disagree, that's fine.
Could it be possible, in your universe, if your already-compromised heart failed as the result of a cascading escalation of health issues which resulted from contracting covid-19, and that the virus CONTRIBUTED to your death? Do you claim that they are completely unrelated? You simply don't want to admit that this pandemic is real.

Do not put words in my mouth. I never said the Pandemic isn't real. You are just a liar that wants to claim others believe things they don't, because you have nothing of value to add to this conversation.

(how do you like it, when people make up stuff about you?)

Anything can contribute to your death. If you get shot, and are dying, you could contract Corona just before being shot, or during your time in the hospital while dying. That doesn't mean Corona killed you, over being shot.

That's all the guy from Italy was pointing out.

By any measure the death rate in Italy is extremely high, relative to the death rates we've seen from Corona elsewhere in the world.

That suggests two possibilities.

One, they are attributing far more to Corona, than people who are actually dying from Corona.

Two, socialized health care in Italy sucks many times worse than we could imagine.

Either of those are acceptable possibilities.
I apologize for assuming that you don't believe this pandemic is real. I hate it when people put words in my mouth, and I don't want to do it to anyone else. So, now that we've established that this pandemic IS real, I don't agree that there are only the two possibilities that you listed which explain the situation in Italy. If you read the Telegraph article (or even just the extracts that I excerpted), you'd see that there are other factors: Italy has an older population, which tends to have more health issues, many are smokers, there is worse air pollution, etc.

Agreed.


The difference between Italy and the rest of the EU, as far as percentage of aged population, is minor.

By that logic, I would assume Japan should be the worst hit in the world.

A factor? Sure. Not sure if it's as important as claimed.


And as far as air quality, again, Italy might be worse on average than the rest of the EU, but the difference is exceptionally small relative to much worse places.

Wouldn't China be the worst?

I don't think that such minor differences between Italy and other first world countries, could make that large of a difference in Corona deaths.
Japan is a fairly insular society, and I believe that they reacted to the pandemic quickly, so that may have mitigated the impact. Maybe we can agree that we just don't know enough about the whole thing to really say a lot about this for sure right now. OK?

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think where the rub comes for some in our society is, how much long term damage are we doing, that may not be producing any positive benefits for the country?

And that is actually where the real question is.

A lock down simply can't last forever. It just simply can't. Is what we are doing, actually helpful? And I don't have an answer to that.
I also agree! The lockdown can't last forever. That is absolutely true. But yes, I think the lockdown IS helpful. It's buying us time. Time to build more hospital beds, time to manufacture more ventilators, time to test possible treatments, time for health care workers to get resupplied with PPE, and just get a break.
 
Weird that almost all conservatives are racists that believe everything is a conspiracy. Must be something in the geritol.
 

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