Zone1 Would studying from a Reform Rabbi genuinely hurt ones understanding of Judaism?

[rosends]

Well, as I understand it, Jesus was a respected scholar of the Torah.

according to whom?

I cannot recall where I read it, it may have been the Talmud with a sentence or two perhaps naming or indicating respected Rabbis running counter to him due to the accusations against him of sorcery, idolatry, and leading Israel astray.

Jesus is not mentioned in the talmud, nor is any reaction to him mentioned.

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud

Jesus in the Talmud.

www.angelfire.com

It would be no different than today if someone approached you and told you "I am the son of G-d (or, as some suggest, he is G-d incarnated).

How would you react to such a person? You would think they were suffering from a psychological condition, right?

probably, yes.

Take it further, imagine you are deeply religious and study the Torah closely. How would you feel then?

pretty much the same.

They disliked him and didn't hide this dislike.

it isn't about like or dislike.

 

[rosends]

Not Jesus----what evidence do you have the he did the watering down? -----he left not a single
written word and even the stuff attributed to him in the NT does not support your water-down
contention EXCEPT DREAMS by followers after he died and went away ----and none of the "gospels" are verifiably extant----My sense is that Paul- --the
clearly HELLENIST member did it. -----as to the writings of LUKE----he never met Jesus and he
spoke Greek ----not Aramaic. Anything approaching his sources were old and unrecorded.
As to "JEWISH LEADERS" hating him during his lifetime----name ONE. I do believe that he was
born in the GALIL----his cousin was John the Mikveh man. Both were literate and popular
itinerate preachers so that the Romans offed them---

I'm using the conventional shorthand of ascribing texts written about him the authority to speak of his teachings faithfully.

 

[shockedcanadian]

who disliked him? ------the romanesque description of a CRUCIFIXION PARTY ----is akin to
an historically correct description of GLADIATOR GAMES at the COLLESEUM. The statement
"THE JEWISH LEADERS HATED HIM" is fantasy based on an absolutely incorrect concept of
"JEWISH LEADER"------to wit, Herod, Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate were not the 'JEWISH LEADERS"
Beyond them----the nameless "crowd"???

Read the Talmud, they make multiple references to his death.

This is in the Babylonian Talmud for example. One of a few indicators:

"Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried, “He is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed them into apostasy. Whosoever has anything to say in his defense, let him come and declare it.” As nothing was brought forward in his defense, he was hanged on Passover Eve."

The death aside, if he was not despised, wouldn't have his Jewish supporters have stood up in his defense?

 

[irosie91]

according to whom?

Jesus is not mentioned in the talmud, nor is any reaction to him mentioned.

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud

Jesus in the Talmud.

www.angelfire.com

probably, yes.

pretty much the same.

it isn't about like or dislike.

in the New Testament there are a few lines that describe Jesus going to
a synagogue and being asked to read---which he does. And that's about
it-------I believe that simple report. It means to me that he was known to
be literate and likely upstanding----and that's about it. If he was a society
reject----he would not be asked to read. Where does anyone get the "hated"
and "watered down judaism" other than stuff related as dreams post execution?

 

[rosends]

Read the Talmud, they make multiple references to his death.

This is in the Babylonian Talmud for example. One of a few indicators:

"Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried, “He is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed them into apostasy. Whosoever has anything to say in his defense, let him come and declare it.” As nothing was brought forward in his defense, he was hanged on Passover Eve."

The death aside, if he was not despised, wouldn't have his Jewish supporters have stood up in his defense?

You are referring to the text of Sanhedrin, 43a which does not mention Jesus, but speaks of someone named "Yeshu"

Here is the write up from the link I provided in my earlier message:

"
Summary
Here we have the story of the execution of Yeshu. Like Ben Stada, he was also executed on the eve of Passover. Before executing him, the court searched for any witnesses who could clear his name, as was normally done before any execution. Ulla, however, questioned this practice. An enticer, due to the biblical mandate not to be merciful, should not be afforded this normal consideration. The Talmud answers that Yeshu was different. Because of his government connections, the court tried to search for any reason not to execute him and upset the government.

Proof
Again we see Yeshu. All of the proofs from above connecting Yeshu to Jesus apply here as well. Additionally, the execution on the eve of Passover is another connection to Jesus as above with Ben Stada.

Problems
1. As mentioned above with Ben Stada, the Synoptic Gospels have Jesus being executed on Passover itself and not the eve of Passover.
2. As above, Yeshu lived a century before Jesus.
3. Yeshu was executed by a Jewish court and not by the Romans. During Yeshu's time, the reign of Alexander Janneus, the Jewish courts had the power to execute but had to be careful because the courts were ruled by the Pharisees while the king was a Sadducee. It seems clear why the courts would not want to unneccesarily upset the monarch by executing a friend of his. During the Roman occupation of Jesus' time, there is no indication that the Jewish courts had the right to execute criminals.
3. There is no indication from the New Testament that Jesus had friends in the government."

 

[irosie91]

Read the Talmud, they make multiple references to his death.

This is in the Babylonian Talmud for example. One of a few indicators:

"Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried, “He is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed them into apostasy. Whosoever has anything to say in his defense, let him come and declare it.” As nothing was brought forward in his defense, he was hanged on Passover Eve."

The death aside, if he was not despised, wouldn't have his Jewish supporters have stood up in his defense?

what book of the babylonian talmud? I missed it completely. What year was this event supposed
to have taken place? What name is used to designate "jesus"? "HANGED"??? on Passover
eve? IS "hanged" supposed to be a euphemism for crucifixion?

 

[irosie91]

You are referring to the text of Sanhedrin, 43a which does not mention Jesus, but speaks of someone named "Yeshu"

Here is the write up from the link I provided in my earlier message:

"
Summary
Here we have the story of the execution of Yeshu. Like Ben Stada, he was also executed on the eve of Passover. Before executing him, the court searched for any witnesses who could clear his name, as was normally done before any execution. Ulla, however, questioned this practice. An enticer, due to the biblical mandate not to be merciful, should not be afforded this normal consideration. The Talmud answers that Yeshu was different. Because of his government connections, the court tried to search for any reason not to execute him and upset the government.

Proof
Again we see Yeshu. All of the proofs from above connecting Yeshu to Jesus apply here as well. Additionally, the execution on the eve of Passover is another connection to Jesus as above with Ben Stada.

Problems
1. As mentioned above with Ben Stada, the Synoptic Gospels have Jesus being executed on Passover itself and not the eve of Passover.
2. As above, Yeshu lived a century before Jesus.
3. Yeshu was executed by a Jewish court and not by the Romans. During Yeshu's time, the reign of Alexander Janneus, the Jewish courts had the power to execute but had to be careful because the courts were ruled by the Pharisees while the king was a Sadducee. It seems clear why the courts would not want to unneccesarily upset the monarch by executing a friend of his. During the Roman occupation of Jesus' time, there is no indication that the Jewish courts had the right to execute criminals.
3. There is no indication from the New Testament that Jesus had friends in the government."

what is "the eve of passover"? Not passover?

 

[shockedcanadian]

what book of the babylonian talmud? I missed it completely. What year was this event supposed
to have taken place? What name is used to designate "jesus"? "HANGED"??? on Passover
eve? IS "hanged" supposed to be a euphemism for crucifixion?

You know that these passages are interpreted and debated among scholars. It is one section when dealing with legal processes and justice.

Here is the best description I can find, take it for what you will. Though Yeshu was a common name used at the time, many suggest it was referring to Jesus. There are other passages as well in the Talmud:

The relevant passage in Sanhedrin 43a discusses the trial and execution of a figure named "Yeshu" (or "Yeshu HaNotzri" in some versions), who is sometimes associated with Jesus of Nazareth. The text states that this individual was executed for sorcery, inciting idolatry, and leading Israel astray. It describes a process where he was stoned and then hanged on the eve of Passover after a 40-day period of public announcement seeking witnesses in his favor, but none were found. It also mentions he had five disciples: Mattai, Nakai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah.

As I read the various section of the Talmud, the book I have contains selections over 700 pages, single spaced as an example; there were passages that covered a vast array of historical events.

Many Jewish scholars reject the notion, but I'm not so convinced that there aren't references to him. There are even books dedicated solely to this topic but I didn't purchase them.

 

[BreezeWood]

No one knows and that's a fact.

Do you not agree with the Ten Commandments? The Sevens Laws of Noah? The 613 Mitvot?

they practice monarchism - worshiping solitary figures, servitude and denial ... jesus taught monotheism, all are equal in the heavens.

- what 10 commandments, those claimed heavenly by the liar moses that were destroyed by him before ever being witnessed, never etched in the heavens that are found in all three desert religion bibles making all three religions based on forgeries - madeup by a madman.

the conclave of moses and their claims throughout what greater black hearts have ever existed - than shocked canadians.

 

[BreezeWood]

He was creating a "Judaism Lite"

they ...

the 1st century events were the repudiation of judaism - false commandments hereditary idolatry religion of apartheid et al servitude and denial.

for the true monotheism, all in the heavens are equal - liberation theology, self determination.

 

[BreezeWood]

In your dreams. Jesus was a full fledged Hillel man if at least some of the NT ---written under the aegis of and paid for by CONSTANTINE can be considered credible.

written under the aegis of and paid for by caiaphas and 91, jesus and hillel - good buddies ... till the truth became known.

 

[irosie91]

written under the aegis of and paid for by caiaphas and 91, jesus and hillel - good buddies ... till the truth became known.

It is clear that Jesus and Hillel might have been good buddies if Hillel had lived beyond the
birth of Jesus. Caiaphas was out of the loop and 91 was not there

 

[BreezeWood]

It is clear that Jesus and Hillel might have been good buddies if Hillel had lived beyond the
birth of Jesus. Caiaphas was out of the loop and 91 was not there

it's your claim and no one else's ... they need not to have lived during the same time - never a claim of association whatsoever ... 91 is spell bound for what does not exist.

 

[Cassandro]

The Jews didn't kill though did they?

No, the Romans crucified him. But some senior Jewish leaders were complicit in his prosecution. That does not mean that "the Jews" killed Jesus. Obviously, many of them appreciated his teachings. I don't know why this should be such a contentious topic.

I think that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi whose teachings resonated with Gentiles and were ultimately sold to them as a new religion. I do not believe in the religious dogma that was invented after his death, but neither do I believe in 603 extra commandments. His admonition to love one another is tough enough, and God will take care of the rest.

Where on the spectrum does that put me?

 

[shockedcanadian]

No, the Romans crucified him. But some senior Jewish leaders were complicit in his prosecution. That does not mean that "the Jews" killed Jesus. Obviously, many of them appreciated his teachings. I don't know why this should be such a contentious topic.

I think that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi whose teachings resonated with Gentiles and were ultimately sold to them as a new religion. I do not believe in the religious dogma that was invented after his death, but neither do I believe in 603 extra commandments. His admonition to love one another is tough enough, and God will take care of the rest.

Where on the spectrum does that put me?

I don't know, that's for you to determine. Religion is a very personal pursuit until you find a community.

Many of us are stuck in the middle of nowhere due to circumstances. It's not fun, but I pray and keep G-ds Commands as best I can while continuing to learn.

 

[irosie91]

No, the Romans crucified him. But some senior Jewish leaders were complicit in his prosecution. That does not mean that "the Jews" killed Jesus. Obviously, many of them appreciated his teachings. I don't know why this should be such a contentious topic.

I think that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi whose teachings resonated with Gentiles and were ultimately sold to them as a new religion. I do not believe in the religious dogma that was invented after his death, but neither do I believe in 603 extra commandments. His admonition to love one another is tough enough, and God will take care of the rest.

Where on the spectrum does that put me?

on what information are you basing your opinion that some senior Jewish leaders were
complicit in the prosecution of Jesus? On what information do you believe that "many
of them appreciated his teachings"? To what teachings do you allude? On what do
you base your opinion that the teachings of Jesus "resonated with Gentiles"?
Which teachings? Who sold the "teachings" to Gentiles?

 

[Cassandro]

I don't know, that's for you to determine. Religion is a very personal pursuit until you find a community.

Many of us are stuck in the middle of nowhere due to circumstances. It's not fun, but I pray and keep G-ds Commands as best I can while continuing to learn.

One of my problems is that I have an aversion to group think. Another is that I place little confidence in what theologians, whether they be Jewish or Christian, have said about events of which they had no personal knowledge. I don't think G-d wants us to stone people or burn them at the stake, regardless of what they may have opined.

 

[shockedcanadian]

One of my problems is that I have an aversion to group think. Another is that I place little confidence in what theologians, whether they be Jewish or Christian, have said about events of which they had no personal knowledge. I don't think G-d wants us to stone people or burn them at the stake, regardless of what they may have opined.

You should read the Torah and Jewish historical reference, especially the Talmud. It's the most detailed historical reference of what occurred going back thousands of years. Amazing really.

Whatever you choose, make sure it's the light and not the darkness which is all around us. I will eventually complete my journey when my life is settled, for now I remain a Noahide, who also follows dietary laws (have for years really) and other key events in history.

Hopefully you will do your part to make the world a better place and follow G-ds commands.

Rabbi Akiva said: Whoever has bread in his basket and says, ‘What will I eat tomorrow?’ is of little faith. But one who gives charity, even if he has little, shows trust in God." (Sotah 48b)

 

[Cassandro]

You should read the Torah and Jewish historical reference, especially the Talmud. It's the most detailed historical reference of what occurred going back thousands of years. Amazing really.

Have you read the Gospels?

 

[shockedcanadian]

Have you read the Gospels?

You mean the New Testament? Yes

Now I stick to the Tanakh and Talmud