What has your secret religion accomplished?
Zone1 Worse than sin is the denial of sin
- Thread starter Meriweather
- Start date
So conspiracy theory?
No, its a matter of historical fact. Rome assimilated and perverted Christianity without grasping the hidden meaning of the figurative words and subjects in 325 ce mating with all other pagan religions on earth creating just one foul and loathsome beast that is openly and brazenly dedicated to defying the Law of God, by worshipping a trinity, and desecrating the teaching of Jesus, by handing out bread made by human hands to eat for spiritual life, DERP, burying the teachings of the real Messiah, a Jewish man, teaching that is the Actual Body of Christ, under a mountain of steaming shit, blasphemous obscenities, upon which the church sits like a dragon.
God love the Roman world so much that he diddled a virgin to become a Jewish man so he could say things no one understood, perform some magic tricks, abolish his own laws, only to be ridiculed, rejected and despised as a "perfect human sacrifice" so they could crucify him and eat him for spiritual life and remain irrational barbarians and sin with impunity for life, and all they had to do is "just believe" defy the Law of God at Mass, and and celebrate the death of Jesus.
Yeah right. You swallowed this total bullshit hook line and sinker and lost your very soul. Sucker.
Its a brazen irrational con that puts believers under a curse, death, a delusion so strong believers don't know that they're dead. Do with the information whatever you want to or don't want to do.
I have spoken.
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24,000 written manuscripts, the history of early Christians and apostles say otherwise. You have no evidence. I have evidence.
Wrong. The fact that you can't grasp or admit and do not even have an inkling that worshiping a first century Jewish man as if he was God and turning to bread made by human hands for spiritual life, DERP, is the epitome of idolatry, according the definition is irrefutable proof that my words are the truth. You have been buggered by perverse 4th century sardonic Roman jokers
Every time you bend over backwards trying to avoid the truth your ass provides the evidence
Dufus.
The only evidence that you have provided is that you understand neither scripture nor the power of my God. Neither do you understand the meaning of the words and subjects about which you are so hypocritically dogmatic. You have been diverted, accursed, by superstitious archaic lore.
Again, proving that my words are true.
Good job!
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The Christian tradition was continuous and unbroken. We have the history and traditions of the early Christians and apostles which corroborate those accounts. No other event in antiquity has had the number, timing and accuracy of these manuscripts. It's not even close.
No other event in the history of antiquity has been more thoroughly studied.
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources4
"Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!"
You have no evidence. I have evidence.
Which only shows that the sword that Jesus came to bring worked like a charm from the start...
"Christians may think Jesus is divine, but Pliny knows who Jesus was, a crucified criminal. While this is not irrefutable proof of Jesus Christ, it does indicate that even those who hated Christians believed that Jesus was a real human being.
PLINY THE YOUNGER (c. 61-113 C.E.) Roman author and administrator in Bithynia (modern Turkey) wrote to Roman Emperor Trajan about how to deal with the Christians in that province. Pliny said that he tried to force Christians to recant, executing any who refused to do so.
He wrote:
“This is the course I have taken with those who were accused before me as Christians. I asked them whether they were Christians, and if they confessed, I asked them a second and third time with threats of punishment. If they kept to it, I ordered them for execution.”
As for those who denied Christianity by cursing Christ and worshipping a statue of the emperor and the images of the gods that Pliny had brought into court, he wrote that those who complied:
Those who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine (bread marked with the Mithran cross, and wine, representing the blood of a bull) and frankincense, to your image and who finally cursed Christ, I thought it proper to discharge.”. There is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians, into any of these compliances.”
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Which only shows that the sword that Jesus came to bring worked like a charm from the start...
“The Christians. . . worship a man to this day (DERP)– the distinguished personage who introduced this new cult, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt for death and self devotion . . . their lawgiver [taught] they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take on faith . . .”
People worshipped Caesar as if he was god. Is that evidence of truth or insanity? Take your time.
Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it; WHEN THEY HAVE DRUNK IT THEY WILL VOMIT AND GO MAD; such is the sword that I am sending among them"
Take this cup of wine and drink it, ALL OF YOU. This is a cup of my blood, the blood of the covenant.
"And as soon as Judas received the bread, Satan ENTERED him"
"Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink"
"He who leads into captivity, shall go into captivity; He who lifts the sword to kill, is bound by the sword to be killed"
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Which only shows that the sword that Jesus came to bring worked like a charm from the start...
"Christians may think Jesus is divine, but Pliny knows who Jesus was, a crucified criminal. While this is not irrefutable proof of Jesus Christ, it does indicate that even those who hated Christians believed that Jesus was a real human being.
PLINY THE YOUNGER (c. 61-113 C.E.) Roman author and administrator in Bithynia (modern Turkey) wrote to Roman Emperor Trajan about how to deal with the Christians in that province. Pliny said that he tried to force Christians to recant, executing any who refused to do so.
He wrote:
“This is the course I have taken with those who were accused before me as Christians. I asked them whether they were Christians, and if they confessed, I asked them a second and third time with threats of punishment. If they kept to it, I ordered them for execution.”
As for those who denied Christianity by cursing Christ and worshipping a statue of the emperor and the images of the gods that Pliny had brought into court, he wrote that those who complied:
Those who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine (bread marked with the Mithran cross, and wine, representing the blood of a bull) and frankincense, to your image and who finally cursed Christ, I thought it proper to discharge.”. There is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians, into any of these compliances.”
"Understanding Terminology
Greek manuscripts are the primary documents that determine the wording of the New Testament. These are divided into four groups:
· Papyri – these manuscripts are identified by the material they are made of. The papyrus manuscripts are among the most important when reconstructing the text of the New Testament. While the material on which they are written is valuable because of their rarity, the date that they were written is most important. The papyri are the earliest “direct witness to the New Testament autographs” (Comfort & Barret, 2001). Today, most are in fragments.
· Uncials and Minuscules – these are the writing styles of the documents. Uncials were written in all capital letters. Minuscules were written in a type of cursive.
· Lectionaries – these are manuscripts that are arranged for daily study and meditation.
New Testament manuscripts are usually found on vellum or parchment. The earliest were written on papyrus while the latest are written on paper. Generally speaking, if we were to list these groups out in chronological order, the earliest group is the papyri. The papyri are followed by uncials, minuscule, and finally, lectionaries. The earliest complete copies of the New Testament are Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. (“Codex” refers to the book form used exclusively by Christians for making copies of Biblical writings.) Both date to the early fourth century.
The earliest manuscripts on papyrus are divided into three primary groups: the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, the Chester Beatty/Michigan Papyri, and the Bodmer Papyri. In 1898, thousands of papyrus fragments were found in the ancient garbage dumps of Oxyrhynchus, Egypt. Many of them were secular, pertaining to business contracts, letters, and literature. But around 35 of them contain portions of the New Testament. The Beatty Papyri were purchased from an Egyptian dealer in 1934. In this collection, three are very early and contain a large portion of the New Testament. The Bodmer Papyri were purchased in Egypt during the 1950’s and 60’s. This collection contains one papyrus that dates to the second century, while others date to the late third or early fourth century.
The Number of New Testament Manuscripts Compared with Other Ancient Books
In terms of quantity, the New Testament is represented far more than any other piece of ancient literature. Consider the known manuscripts of four well known Greek and Roman works: Homer was the earliest and most popular author of the ancient Greek world. His book, The Illiad, dates to 750 BC. To date, 647 manuscripts of this book have been found. Only 190 contain a complete copy. When compared to other classical Greek writing, Homer’s work is an exception. Copies of his work are much more plentiful than other ancient books. For example, Caesar’s Gallic War, dates to 50 BC. Only 9-10 manuscripts exist with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War dates to 450 BC. Eight manuscripts have been found with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. (There are some fragments of this book that date to the time of Jesus.) Finally, Tacitus’ Histories was written in 100 AD. Only two manuscripts are available. One dates to 800 AD, the other to 1000 AD.
In light of this, the number of ancient writings containing the New Testament is staggering. To date, over 5800 Greek New Testament fragments have been found (Taylor, 2012). Over 10,000 Latin New Testament manuscripts dating from the 2nd to 16th century have been located. The earliest are in fragments that cover a substantial amount of the New Testament. Some manuscripts have also been found in a number of other languages, including Coptic, Syriac, Gothic, and Arabic. Taking all languages together, over 25,000 handwritten copies of the New Testament have been recovered. But there is more. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced by quotes from the ancient church fathers. “So extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament” (Metzger & Ehrman, 2005).
The number of manuscripts being found is continually growing. “Every decade and virtually every year new manuscripts are discovered. Meanwhile, the average classical author’s writings are found in about twenty extant manuscripts” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). The earliest manuscripts do not contain the entire New Testament. Some fragments contain just a verse or two, but still count as a manuscript. The average size of a New Testament manuscript is around 450 pages.
The Length of Time Between the Original Autographs and Earliest Copies of the New Testament
The older manuscripts are very important because there are fewer copies between them and the one first written. The span between the original writing and the earliest copy is minimal when compared to others in ancient writing. “We have copies commencing within a couple of generations from the writing of the originals, whereas in the case of other ancient texts, maybe five, eight, or ten centuries elapsed between the original and the earliest surviving copy,” (Strobel, 1998). By comparison, the average classical author has at least a 500-year gap between the writing of the original and the earliest copy (Slick).
Papyrus 52 (P52), which contains a small fragment of John’s gospel, (18.31-33, 37-38) is considered to be the earliest copy of New Testament text. Discovered in 1934 by C. H. Roberts, it is believed to have been copied no later than 150 AD but no earlier than 100 AD. “Nothing is unreasonable about assigning a date of 100-125 for P52. If John’s gospel was written in the 70’s or 80’s, we have a fragment 20-25 years removed form the autograph” (Comfort & Barret, 2001). Newly discovered fragments from Egypt have been recently found, one of which may date to the first century. The oldest piece contains verses from Mark’s gospel. The others, dating into the second century have portions of Luke’s gospel and letters from Paul. One fragment contains a sermon from Hebrews 11. The contents of these fragments are still being examined and subjected to dating methods. Scholars hope to publish their findings by late 2013 or early 2014 (Wallace, 2012).
There are 10-15 manuscripts written within the first 100 years of the completion of the New Testament. Some are fairly large fragments, containing significant portions of the gospels or the letters of Paul. When we go out two centuries from the original writings (300 AD), there are at least 48 manuscripts. At three centuries (400 AD), there are 69 copies.
Determining Age and Examining Quality
Over the last 100 years, thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts have been found in countries all along the Mediterranean. The majority has come from Egypt. When looking at ancient texts, scholars begin by examining the manuscript’s age and quality.
Age
As stated before, the earlier the manuscript, the more valuable they are. If there are fewer copies between themselves and the originals, the potential for error is reduced. “The more direct pipeline a manuscript has to the original, the better are its chances of getting the wording right” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). How can we be sure of the age of ancient writing? Can we actually find conclusive evidence that proves their age?
First, we might think that scientific tests, examining archaeological evidence regarding the physical nature of the papyrus might be in order. But, such tests have been proven to be inaccurate. While external factors can help, most manuscripts cannot be dated this way because of the ambiguous circumstances (Comfort P. W., 2005). So, scholars are left with more subjective methods to date the ancient writings. The best way to date a manuscript is to examine the style of handwriting. Things are written differently generation to generation. The same is true today. Compare your handwriting with that from a century ago. You will see a distinct difference. While exact dates cannot be established, comparative morphology (a study of comparable handwriting styles) allows writings to be narrowed down to differing decades.
The various handwriting styles in one time period over another help with dating. During the first and early second century, writers tried to keep letters on an imaginary top line. Slanted handwriting begins later in the 2nd century. The earlier manuscripts are written with mostly upright characters in a kind of print where letters tend to be as wide as they are high.
The earliest examples have something of a childish appearance, are rough and labored, the curves jerky rather than flowing. As better effect was sought with time, it took the form of attaching serifs to all terminal lines, and these characterize the style from the middle of the first to the middle of the second centuries. Gradually, too, cursive features appear. Letters tend to be connected without lifting the pen. Curves and loops are employed wherever possible, and letters tend to be oval rather than round, sloping rather than upright, varied in height rather than even, with long and dashing initial and terminal strokes. Within this process it is possible to date a given hand typologically with some confidence, although given scribes may be ahead of or behind the general development (Oates, Samuel, & Welles, 1967).
Another method of dating the early manuscripts is to compare the handwriting style to secular writing that is tracked to the same time. This practice is known as comparative paleography. The number of comparative materials between the first and third centuries is not large. Pagan literary texts were often exactly dated, while “as a rule New Testament manuscripts on papyrus are not” (Minnen, 1995).
Quality
The manuscripts that prove to be the most reliable are given preference. Aland & Aland (1989) have constructed a classification system to describe the quality of manuscripts. Three of them are very special quality, special quality, and distinctive character. Why is quality so important? “A meticulous scribe working on a fifty-century manuscript may produce a more reliable text than a third-century scribe who is more interested in getting the job done quickly”(Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).
Through their work, textual critics (Comfort & Barret, 2001) have identified four different qualities or types of handwriting:
· Common – which is inelegant cursive. This was most often a semiliterate, untrained writer who was a novice in making documents.
· Documentary – these were literate writers who were experts in preparing documents. The handwriting style was prominent 200-225 AD and was often used by scribes in public administration.
· Reformed Documentary – these were experts in preparing documents and in copying works of literature. They often attempted to capture the look of a professional, but did not always fully achieve their goal.
· Professional – these writers wrote in a “book hand” or “literary hand” and left telltale marks called stichoi markings, which were a tally of the number of lines to which a professional scribe would be paid.
One can imagine the immense task of physically writing long letters during the early centuries of the church. Paul had the long letter to the Romans written down by a scribe, Romans 16.22. It was labor-intensive work. Arlandson (2007) includes some interesting extras written down by scribes:
· He who does not know how to write supposes it to be no labor; but though on three fingers write, the whole body labors.
· Writing bows one’s back, thrusts the ribs into one’s stomach, and fosters a general debility of the body.
· As travelers rejoice to see their home country, so also is the end of a book to those who toil (in writing).
· An Armenian copyist says in a Gospel that a heavy snowstorm was raging and that the scribe’s ink froze, his hand became numb, and the pen fell from his fingers!
· Some manuscripts may end with gratitude: The end of the book; thanks be to God.
With so many different manuscripts, written by different people with varying educational levels, and speaking different languages, there are many textual variations. The original documents of the New Testament no longer exist and no two copies agree completely. As a result, the study of textual criticism has come about. It is the “study of the copies of any written document whose original is unknown or nonexistent in order to determine the exact wording of the original. Such a task is necessary for an extensive amount of literature, especially that which was written before the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The New Testament is no exception to this rule” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).
What about Variances in the Early Texts?
As we know it today, there are around 138,000 words in the Greek New Testament. There are literally hundreds of thousands of variants where there is not uniformity of wording. On average, for every word in the Greek New Testament, there are almost three variants. The large number is due to the large number of manuscripts. Are these differences capable in changing the meaning of the intent of the original authors? No. An overwhelming majority of alterations are accidental and trivial.
Textual differences are typically divided into four categories.
· Spelling and Nonsense Errors. This is by far the largest of the categories and the majority of these are spelling differences that have no impact on the meaning of the text. For example, in the Greek, John is spelled two different ways. The same person is in view; but the difference is in whether the scribe decided to spell John using two “n’s” or one. Another common difference found in Greek manuscripts is similar to the two forms of the indefinite article in English: a or an. These variances are so insignificant that most textual critics ignore them. Scribes who were tired or inattentive often created “nonsense errors.” For example, Codex Washingtonianus contains an error where a scribe wrote the word and instead of the word Lord. In the Greek, the two words are very similar (kai and kurios) and the mistake probably happened due to mental fatigue. In the overall context, the usage of the word and does not change the meaning of the text.
· Minor changes and alterations that do not affect translation. This category consists of variations in the usage of a definite article with proper names. Sometimes Greek uses the definite article with proper names while English does not. For example, in Luke 2.16, some manuscripts identify Mary and Joseph as the Mary and the Joseph instead of just Mary and Joseph. In other manuscripts, the article was not used. Also, word-order differences account for many of the discrepancies. An example of this can be seen in a sentence such as “Jesus loves John.” “In Greek, that sentence can be expressed in at least sixteen different ways without affecting the basic sense” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012). Word order changes are frequent in the manuscripts, yet these do not affect the basic meaning of what is being said.
· Meaningful changes that are not “Viable.” One example is found in 1 Thessalonians 2.9. A late medieval manuscript (from the 13th century) uses the phrase “the gospel of Christ.” This is a meaningful change, but not viable because almost all of the other manuscripts use the term “the gospel of God.” Other examples are seen throughout the gospels as scribes often tried to harmonize the wording between the gospel accounts. When they did so, they “tended to add material to one Gospel rather than take away material from another” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).
· Meaningful and “Viable” Variants. This represents about 1 percent of all textual variants. In these cases, the difference in the manuscripts can affect the understanding of a passage. Daniel Wallace identifies three significant examples:
o Romans 5.1 – Some manuscripts read we have peace while others say let us have peace. In the original language, the difference in the word is found in one letter. “If we have peace is authentic, Paul is speaking about believer’s status with God; if let us have peace is authentic, the apostle is urging Christians to enjoy the experience of this harmony with God in their lives. As important as this textual problem is, neither variant contradicts any of the teachings of Scripture elsewhere, and both readings state something that is theologically sound,[3]” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012).
o Mark 16.9-10 and John 7.53-8.11 are omitted in the earliest manuscripts and do not fit well with the style of writing of the authors. Even if one were to take away these passages, no essential matters of doctrine are changed.
What are we to make of these variants? Should our faith be shaken? Absolutely not. “For more than two centuries, most biblical scholars have declared that no essential affirmation has been affected by the variants” (Taylor, 2012). In their attempts to recover the originals, textual critics have recovered at least 95% of the inspired words. Some even go farther, placing the number as high as 99%. Scholars such as Philip Comfort have ascertained that while there are differing conclusions on some of the variants in the manuscripts, “this is, by no means, a large number… And this should not cause us to abandon the task of recovering the original wording of the New Testament. New insights have come and will keep coming, in the new form of actual documents, new methodologies, and new understandings” (Comfort P. W., 2005). Another scholar writes, “The verbal agreement between various New Testament manuscripts is closer than between many English translations of the New Testament and the percentage of variants in the New Testament is small…and no matter of doctrine hinges on a variant reading” (Wegner, 2006). Think about the first part of Wegner’s statement. There are thousands of Greek manuscripts available, coming from different times and places. They agree more often than our English translations! Amazing!
Concluding Thoughts
Even though the original autographs disappeared thousands of years ago, God has preserved His word. Over the course of history, has not God worked through human beings to accomplish His purposes? Arlandson (2007) makes a powerful comparison when referencing the writing of C.S. Lewis on miracles. “The moment (a miracle) enters (nature’s) realm, it obeys her laws. Miraculous wine will intoxicate, miraculous conception will lead to pregnancy, inspired books will suffer all the ordinary processes of textual corruption, and miraculous bread will be digested” (Lewis, 1947).
Despite undergoing all the processes of time, the fact that the Biblical manuscripts have been preserved in the way they have should strengthen our faith. The ancient inspired writings are not alone - no text coming from the ancient world has the originals. It should humble us when we see how Scripture has been handed down through the generations. Many scribes spent countless hours copying and checking their work to ensure an accurate text for the generations that would come after them. Theirs was often a behind-the-scenes endeavor that garnered little attention. But, there is little doubt they understood the significance of the Word of God. Instead of having our faith shaken, we should be strengthened when we consider that Modern Greek texts are very close to the original.
In the end, we simply need to fall back on faith. We can rest in confidence that our sovereign and powerful God not only inspired the Biblical writers, but He has also providentially overseen its preservation in such a way that the Bible we have today is reliable. It is nothing less than the infallible, inerrant Word of God Himself. What Isaiah said 2700 years ago will always ring true: The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever, Isaiah 40.8.
Works Cited
Aland, K., & Aland, B. (1989). The Text of the New Testament: An Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism (2nd Edition ed.). (E. F. Rhodes, Trans.) Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Arlandson, J. (2007, February 24). New Testament Manuscripts: Discovery and Classification. Retrieved May 19, 2013, from The American Thinker: http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/02/new_testament_manuscripts_disc.html
Baker, M. (2013, January 8). Oldest Bible Manuscripts. Retrieved May 16, 2013, from Usefulcharts.com: http://www.usefulcharts.com/religion/oldest-bible-manuscripts.html
Brown, D. (2003). The Da Vinci Code: A Novel. New York, NY: Doubleday.
Comfort, P. W. (2005). Encountering the Manuscripts. Nashville: Broadman and Holman.
Comfort, P. W., & Barret, D. P. (2001). The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House.
Grudem, W., Collins, C. J., & Schreiner, T. R. (2012). Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning. Wheaton, IL: Crossway.
Komoszewski, E., Sawyer, M. J., & Wallace, D. B. (2006). Reinventing Jesus: How Contemporary Skeptics Miss the Real Jesus and Mislead Popular Culture. Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications.
Lewis, C. S. (1947). Miracles: A Preliminary Study (Paperback Edition Published 2001 ed.). New York, NY: Harper Collins.
Metzger, B. M., & Ehrman, B. D. (2005). The Text of the New Testament: It's Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Minnen, P. v. (1995, December 12). Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts. Retrieved May 15, 2013, from Duke University Special Collections Library: http://www.library.duke.edu/rubenstein/scriptorium/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html
Oates, J. F., Samuel, A. E., & Welles, C. B. (1967). Yale Papyri in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library (Vol. 1). New Haven, CT: American Society of Papyrologists.
Slick, M. (n.d.). Manuscript Evidence for Superior New Testament Reliability. Retrieved May 17, 2013, from Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry: Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability
Strobel, L. (1998). The Case for Christ. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.
Taylor, J. (2012, March 21). An Interview with Daniel B. Wallace on the New Testament Manuscripts. Retrieved May 16, 2013, from The Gospel Coalition: http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/b...el-b-wallace-on-the-new-testament-manuscripts
Wallace, D. (2012, February 24). New Testament Scholar Daniel Wallace of the Gospel of Mark Discovery, and Other Biblical papyri with it. The Hugh Hewitt Show. (H. Hewitt, Interviewer)
Wegner, P. D. (2006). A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible. Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity."
The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts
The Sage of Main Street
Platinum Member
This Is What You'd Get If You Were Told Any Story Like It
Mary got pregnant by a Roman soldier. Joseph was so hard up that he married her because the only way he could get any sex was from a woman in a desperate situation.
Look at the Superman TV series. Because of the Puritanical 50s, there was no indication of a possible romance between him and Lois Lane. But the movie was looser in its portrayal of the way things would be in real life.
The Sage of Main Street
Platinum Member
Typical Christofascist dishonesty about interpreting facts. Pliny never wrote that Jesus actually existed; he wrote that the Christians believed that Jesus had existed, and that they believed the Romans had crucified the Son of God.Which only shows that the sword that Jesus came to bring worked like a charm from the start...
"Christians may think Jesus is divine, but Pliny knows who Jesus was, a crucified criminal. While this is not irrefutable proof of Jesus Christ, it does indicate that even those who hated Christians believed that Jesus was a real human being.
PLINY THE YOUNGER (c. 61-113 C.E.) Roman author and administrator in Bithynia (modern Turkey) wrote to Roman Emperor Trajan about how to deal with the Christians in that province. Pliny said that he tried to force Christians to recant, executing any who refused to do so.
He wrote:
“This is the course I have taken with those who were accused before me as Christians. I asked them whether they were Christians, and if they confessed, I asked them a second and third time with threats of punishment. If they kept to it, I ordered them for execution.”
As for those who denied Christianity by cursing Christ and worshipping a statue of the emperor and the images of the gods that Pliny had brought into court, he wrote that those who complied:
Those who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine (bread marked with the Mithran cross, and wine, representing the blood of a bull) and frankincense, to your image and who finally cursed Christ, I thought it proper to discharge.”. There is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians, into any of these compliances.”
When some ancient Hebrew city is finally discovered, theist morons take it as proof that everything their Bible says happened there must have actually happened.
Refute this superstition through analogy. When Troy was finally discovered in the 19th Century, was anyone idiotic enough to claim that the unbelievable events told in the Iliad must have actually happened?
When all else fails puke? lol...
"When they have drunk it, they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them"
I don't see what you are disagreeing with. Like I said,
"Christians may think Jesus is divine, but Pliny knows who Jesus was, a crucified criminal. While this is not irrefutable proof of Jesus Christ, it does indicate that even those who hated Christians believed that Jesus was a real human being."
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If your goal is to make Jewish people look bad, you are doing a fabulous job.
I hate to break the news to you but my goal as the Avenger of Blood, the blood of Jesus, is to extirpate the lies that you claim about him, what he said and did, which makes him look insane and makes you look like a pretentious dimwit. I have shown what Jesus actually said and did. No blind faith, suspension of disbelief or being a phony piece of shit required. Its not rocket science.
And as such there come with it certain power and authority. Deal with it. ITS THE LAW. Look it up
You might not realize this but my revelation only makes the Jewish people look good, like stars in the night sky, forever rejecting the antichrist, your almighty yet edible virgin diddling triune mangod a perversion of Christ, a fabrication of the Roman Empire, a false substitute, counterfeit Jesus conjured from the depths of a Roman hell and unleashed on the whole world in 325ce
The good news is the tribulation will be over before many realize it began before they were born.
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Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources4
"Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!"
You have no evidence.
Of course he did. He raised the dead, gave sight to the blind, healed the crippled, ..etc just in a rational way that conforms to reality, not according to some mysterious superstitious archaic lore
Sucker.
Sin in my opinion is whatever is harmful to yourself and/or others. That can be sin of commission, i.e. intentionally doing harm to yourself and/or others. That can be sin of omission, i.e. not doing that which we should that would be beneficial to ourselves and/or others. That can be sin of ignorance, i.e. doing what we do not realize does harm to ourselves and/or others.
Sin is bad because it is harmful and/or separates us from God and it is visited upon our children even unto the fourth and fifth generations, meaning a long time.
Denial of sin may be out of ignorance and may or may not be as harmful as sins of commission or omission. But it sure as heck enables those sins to continue.
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