Zone1 Worry about God's judgement of you

[Meriweather]

Why couldn't the same effect be accomplished without the sacrifice? Not all religions needed a sacrifice.

It's a question that's often asked but I've never heard the answer.

In the Book of Hosea, God says he desires mercy, not sacrifice; in the Book of Samuel, it says God values obedience over sacrifice. Jesus mentions both, obedience to God and quotes Hosea twice that God desires mercy not sacrifice. Jesus also taught repentance (turning away from disobedience to obedience) for the forgiveness of sin. This may seem obvious for us today, but it wasn't back in Jesus time, and Temple authorities insisted that only God could forgive sin, and also insisted on sacrifice. Think about this, how the poor of Jesus time, were commanded by the well-to-do to provide them the sacrifice (a portion which was retained for their own use) for the forgiveness of sins.

The cynical part of me compares this to the rich and powerful today claiming they can fix the climate if we send them additional money. In yesteryear, it was bring the well-to-do sacrifices so that sins may be forgiven. The authorities were none too thrilled with Jesus interfering with the source of their wealth/income.

Had the rich and powerful listened to Samuel, Hosea, Jesus (and likely others), there wouldn't have been an issue. Instead, they saw the commoners listening to Jesus, and of course, the Jewish people were known for wanting to overthrow Roman rule. Jesus was gaining many followers, and where one man has many followers, those in charge fear being overthrown. One of those in authority concluded, "It's better that one man die than Rome demolish us all."

Jesus came to establish this New Covenant with God - repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Throughout Jewish history forgiveness of sins did not require a blood sacrifice, it could be cereal, for example. However, a New Covenant with God was always heralded by a blood sacrifice.

Think about this. Obedience, repentance for the forgiveness of sins was that important to God that He, himself, provided the sacrifice; he, himself shed/provided the blood to herald repentance (obedience) for the forgiveness of sins. In addition, Jesus rose from the dead so that all might know he did have the authority to announce repentance, obedience for the forgiveness of sins. Perhaps the Resurrection is the sign that he also had the authority of announce, "I Am" and that he is One with the Father.

 

[Donald H]

In the Book of Hosea, God says he desires mercy, not sacrifice; in the Book of Samuel, it says God values obedience over sacrifice. Jesus mentions both, obedience to God and quotes Hosea twice that God desires mercy not sacrifice. Jesus also taught repentance (turning away from disobedience to obedience) for the forgiveness of sin. This may seem obvious for us today, but it wasn't back in Jesus time, and Temple authorities insisted that only God could forgive sin, and also insisted on sacrifice. Think about this, how the poor of Jesus time, were commanded by the well-to-do to provide them the sacrifice (a portion which was retained for their own use) for the forgiveness of sins.

As the story goes, the god stooped to the greatest sacrifice of all. My question was: as above.

The cynical part of me compares this to the rich and powerful today claiming they can fix the climate if we send them additional money. In yesteryear, it was bring the well-to-do sacrifices so that sins may be forgiven. The authorities were none too thrilled with Jesus interfering with the source of their wealth/income.

Had the rich and powerful listened to Samuel, Hosea, Jesus (and likely others), there wouldn't have been an issue. Instead, they saw the commoners listening to Jesus, and of course, the Jewish people were known for wanting to overthrow Roman rule. Jesus was gaining many followers, and where one man has many followers, those in charge fear being overthrown. One of those in authority concluded, "It's better that one man die than Rome demolish us all."

The blame is squarely placed on his father. You know that.

Jesus came to establish this New Covenant with God - repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Throughout Jewish history forgiveness of sins did not require a blood sacrifice, it could be cereal, for example. However, a New Covenant with God was always heralded by a blood sacrifice.

Think about this. Obedience, repentance for the forgiveness of sins was that important to God that He, himself, provided the sacrifice; he, himself shed/provided the blood to herald repentance (obedience) for the forgiveness of sins. In addition, Jesus rose from the dead so that all might know he did have the authority to announce repentance, obedience for the forgiveness of sins. Perhaps the Resurrection is the sign that he also had the authority of announce, "I Am" and that he is One with the Father.

Notwithstanding it was the go's responsibility to accept the blame, I can understand that the act was less egregious on account of death being temporary. A consciously humane god wouldn't have even allowed suffering.

The story being true? It is indicated that there was very little suffering involved.

I'm still not convinced that 'any' suffering was necessary? And now consider the suffering of all mammals that was supposedly made necessary. 'That' can't be the desired effect!

 

[ElmerMudd]

The reason the disciples and Jesus Himself went to such lengths was out of concern for the eternal lives of others. They didn't preach the gospel for their own edification.

You are not Jesus or a disciple who worked directly with Jesus. None of us are.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You are not Jesus or a disciple who worked directly with Jesus. None of us are.

I don't understand the relevance of your post. Do you mean we have to have known Christ to spread His gospel?
This comes to us from Jesus. This is what we are supposed to do:

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”​

​

This is how to do it:

Romans 10:14-15 “How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'”​

And this is one I am guilty of:

1 Peter 3:15​

“But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,”

^
Jesus> <me

 

[ding]

I'm still not convinced that 'any' suffering was necessary? And now consider the suffering of all mammals that was supposedly made necessary. 'That' can't be the desired effect!

Are you under the illusion that life is fair? What could possibly lead you to that belief?

 

[Donald H]

Are you under the illusion that life is fair? What could possibly lead you to that belief?

Life isn't unfair. That's not the question. There's no god or other influence on life other than life's conditions

If a god was responsible for making it what life is, then he would be a cruel sick muthafkr. What's the Christian's explanation for why the imaginary god causes little children to suffer?

 

[ding]

Life isn't unfair. That's not the question. There's no god or other influence on life other than life's conditions

Life is unfair. No sense in discussing this any further until you admit that truth.

 

[ding]

If a god was responsible for making it what life is, then he would be a cruel sick muthafkr. What's the Christian's explanation for why the imaginary god causes little children to suffer?

I already told you. Life isn't fair. Expect to make sacrifices.

 

[kjw47]

So no one from you cult is in the 99%? You are all in the 1%? Don't be afraid to say it out loud. Lean into it.

The teachings of Jesus in every translation on earth back my teachers, as does Israelite true God worship history.

 

[ding]

The teachings of Jesus in every translation on earth back my teachers, as does Israelite true God worship history.

Why won't you answer the question I am asking?

 

[kjw47]

Why won't you answer the question I am asking?

I did

 

[ding]

I did

No. You didn't.

 

[ding]

he would be a cruel sick muthafkr

the imaginary god causes little children to suffer

Doesn't this sound like you are putting God on trial?

He's already allowed himself to be put on trial, convicted and punished. The irony is that you are now arguing it was unfair for Jesus to be punished while simultaneously suggesting God should be punished.

I'm surprised your head hasn't collapse from the implosion of irony in your logic.

So let me explain this to you one more time. Life is not fair. Expect to make sacrifices.

 

[ding]

Life isn't unfair.

Double negatives are tricky. Life is so unfair that you couldn't bring yourself to write "life is fair." Even you know it's a lie. But on the off chance that that is what you really believe, maybe we should discuss it in the bull ring. You were looking for things we disagreed on, right?

 

[Donald H]

Double negatives are tricky. Life is so unfair that you couldn't bring yourself to write "life is fair." Even you know it's a lie. But on the off chance that that is what you really believe, maybe we should discuss it in the bull ring. You were looking for things we disagreed on, right?

Double negative? You're a bit confused.

 

[Donald H]

Doesn't this sound like you are putting God on trial?

No, I'm putting the belief in a god on trial.

He's already allowed himself to be put on trial, convicted and punished. The irony is that you are now arguing it was unfair for Jesus to be punished while simultaneously suggesting God should be punished.

I'm surprised your head hasn't collapse from the implosion of irony in your logic.

So let me explain this to you one more time. Life is not fair. Expect to make sacrifices.

Your belief is that the god is responsible for everything. Have a bedside talk to him about fairness. Ask him why he's being such a prick by causing little children to suffer. Then when he goes silent, come back to me for the answer.

 

[Meriweather]

Your belief is that the god is responsible for everything. Have a bedside talk to him about fairness. Ask him why he's being such a prick by causing little children to suffer. Then when he goes silent, come back to me for the answer.

Working with special needs children is an eye-opener into a well known verse in 2 Corinthians:

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

 

[Donald H]

Working with special needs children is an eye-opener into a well known verse in 2 Corinthians:

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

I believe that the reason for the suffering is the 'human condition' my friend. In my opinion, modern medicine deals with the issue quite well but does little to alleviate the pain of the loved ones who carry on.

I 'do' acknowledge that verse to be sufficient answer for believers.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe that the reason for the suffering is the 'human condition' my friend. In my opinion, modern medicine deals with the issue quite well but does little to alleviate the pain of the loved ones who carry on.

I 'do' acknowledge that verse to be sufficient answer for believers.

It's not just "modern medicine" that deals quite well with the issues. God does, too, as he does with the pain of the loved ones who carry on.

 

[Donald H]

It's not just "modern medicine" that deals quite well with the issues.

I can accept that a Christian's belief in a god can then bring mental comfort. But I can't say that that comfort is greater than an atheist's comfort through other means, or it's even less.

To me the matter would be on the level of self confidence and being well-adjusted to the natural world. We/I don't pretend that the human condition isn't going to catch up to all of us. We don't believe that a god can influence the natural world. Being well-adjusted means that we don't get a second life with loved ones. I don't live what I believe to be lies.

God does, too, as he does with the pain of the loved ones who carry on.

The comfort is in believing that he helps.

I haven't seen evidence that says a Christian suffers less. Have you?
I'm seeing excessive suffering in our Ding, while we are able to remain calm and self-confident about our beliefs.