Words are cheap, Jane Fonda

[logical4u]

Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead. Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.

ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy. And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.

I have no doubt that is true. However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.

Why do we posecute spies?

 

[logical4u]

No they weren't. They were "slaughtered" by Americans.

Like this Conservative hero..

Lt. Calley.

William Calley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

America commited a war crime and a genocide in Vietnam. There is no way around that.

Calley's men herded people into ditches and machined gunned them to death. They gang raped little girls. And he got away with the whole thing. It wasn't an isolated incident either.

Is this the fault of our troops? Not at all. They were poorly commanded by people in Washington. And they were pawns in a massive bloody crime of epic proportions.

Are Conservatives mad at this at all? Absolutely not. In fact..they did it again in Iraq. While the atrocities were kept to a minimum..it was a war crime nonetheless.

Lt. Calley was a conservative hero? Where did you get that revelation.

Having personally served 20+ years in the military - Lt. Calley, if he was to be judged on his political position - would be tagged as a Liberal.

Inexperienced, his men had no respect for him, snot-nosed college puke with no military bearing, hated universally. Sounds Liberal to me.

This is the type of "officer" real Americans in the field would frag, with smiles on their faces.

Nixon basically got his ass out of the fire.

Did you read Calley's biography?

William Calley was born in Miami, Florida. His father was a United States Navy veteran of World War II. Calley graduated from Miami Edison High School in Miami and then attended Palm Beach Junior College in 1963. He dropped out in 1964 after receiving unsatisfactory grades, consisting of two Cs, one D, and four Fs.[3] Calley then worked at a variety of jobs, including as a bellhop, dishwasher, salesman, insurance appraiser and train conductor.[4] While living in San Francisco in 1966, Calley received a letter from the Selective Service board requesting reevaluation of his medical condition. While attempting to return to Miami, his car broke down in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where Calley then reported to a recruiting official, enlisting in the U.S. Army on July 26, 1966.[4]

Later in 1974, President Nixon tacitly issued Calley a limited Presidential Pardon. Consequently, his general court-martial conviction and dismissal from the U.S. Army were upheld, however, the prison sentence and subsequent parole obligations were commuted to time served, leaving Calley a free man.[14]

Sometime in 2005 or 2006, Calley divorced his wife Penny, whose father had employed him at the V.V. Vick jewelry store in Columbus since 1975, and moved to downtown Atlanta to live with his son, William Laws Calley III.[15] In October 2007, Calley agreed to be interviewed by the UK newspaper the Daily Mail to discuss the massacre, saying, "Meet me in the lobby of the nearest bank at opening time tomorrow, and give me a certified check for $25,000, then I'll talk to you for precisely one hour."[16] When the journalist "showed up at the appointed hour, armed not with a check but a list of questions," Calley left.

Military family..dropped out of college..followed orders without question..pardoned by Nixon and ultimately wanting to profit..

Sounds pretty conservative to me.

Why do we know his grades and not Obama's, ..... just sayin'

 

[logical4u]

Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?

If you feel Reagan qualifies, then you have to agree that Fonda also qualifies.

However, qualifying and actually being charged are two different things.

And that’s all we are saying, she should have been charged.

Reagan should have been impeached and removed from office.

Not one conservative ever agreed with that.

But he specifically fulfilled the legal definition of Treason with his Iran deal..and Violated the Constitution with his Contra deal.

So much for the "law abiding" conservatives.

Is this like "this" administration supplying the enemy (drug thugs criss-crossing border) and the muslim brotherhood in Libya)? Are you saying he should be impeached, too?

 

[logical4u]

And I liken Palin to be just another Fonda. But Palin is much more stupid.

What enemies of America has Palin laughed and broke bread with before cameras?

 

[logical4u]

I could never understand rich left wing born with a silver spoon in their mouths and always had it easy liberals fascination with communism. Hanoi Jane is just one of so many. Ayers father was a CEO. Dohrn grew up in an upper middle class family.

Ted Turner who absolutely admires Castro to death was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. The list of left wing maniacs who came from wealthy families is endless.

Truly strange.

Edit to add: Hanoi Jane was a true believer in communism.

There are a fair number of right wing hacks that were born into upper class families too....

Look at Bush Jr....just for example....

And are they playing with the enemy during combat (in a safer area of course), while the same enemy is killing American military? Please clarify.

 

[logical4u]

Now that is class warfare: all libs come from upper class families.

Is that stupid, or what?

You missed it. The "leaders" of libs come from upper class families. They whip up the people they consider to be absolute idiots (a few have even put ways into place, "abortion", to reduce the number of "unacceptable" minorities) into mob frenzies, and direct the mob for their personal gain. It is about power. Daddy had it, they want it, and they are unwilling to work for it honestly in a competetive market place. They deceive, destroy and are willing to murder for power, and they do it in the liberal venue. The liberals are all about dividing and conquering. They pit groups and classes (defined by them of course) against each other, to direct attention away from their methods. Those silver-spooned "leaders" cannot get as much traction with conservatives; conservatives support INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, not group (elite) privelage.

 

[hellofromwarsaw]

Stupid GD war. And Nixon's "secret plan" to was a bunch of crappe to get elected. GD lying' cheatin' pubs and their silly blind dupes...Jane always apologized for that picture, but hardly treason, dimwits...

 

[Foxfyre]

And I liken Palin to be just another Fonda. But Palin is much more stupid.

What enemies of America has Palin laughed and broke bread with before cameras?

I was sort of wondering that too. Seemed like an odd statement because whatever anybody thinks about Sarah Palin, I can't think of a single instance that she ever bashed the military or her country for that matter.

 

[Toome]

I think that much of what is attributed to Jane Fonda's anti-war actions are basically made up or exaggerated. I do not deny that she went to Hanoi; nor do I deny that she made strong anti-US statements that served North Vietnamese propaganda. However, until she is tried in court for her actions and convicted of treason, she's not a traitor. In all these years, no one has made a successful case against her. This tells me that's because there is no evidence to support the charge.

If we truly believe in the Constitution, we have to acknowledge the right of people like Jane Fonda to express themselves no matter how unpopular the statement may be. Otherwise, citizens will begin to fear expressing themselves; and, I think that our forefathers specifically worded the Constitution to protect that freedom of expression.

While she's made public apologies for her past actions, which is HER right to do, not everyone has to accept those apologies, which is THEIR right to do. And while it's been a very long time since she made those statements and took those actions, it's clear that some folks are never going to forgive her. That's something SHE'S going to have to live with.

She was not denied due process. Viewers have the right to express outrage, and QVC certainly has the right to protect its financial interests if letting Fonda appear is going to hit them in the wallet. That's the beauty of free enterprise and commerce.

No, I don't condone Fonda's actions in the past, but I defend her right to express her disagreement. The Constitution very strongly sees to that. Now, all these years later, the same argument is being used against her: the right of all of those people she offended and disrespected to exercise their right to express that disagreement in turn.

Karma's a bitch.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think that much of what is attributed to Jane Fonda's anti-war actions are basically made up or exaggerated. I do not deny that she went to Hanoi; nor do I deny that she made strong anti-US statements that served North Vietnamese propaganda. However, until she is tried in court for her actions and convicted of treason, she's not a traitor. In all these years, no one has made a successful case against her. This tells me that's because there is no evidence to support the charge.

If we truly believe in the Constitution, we have to acknowledge the right of people like Jane Fonda to express themselves no matter how unpopular the statement may be. Otherwise, citizens will begin to fear expressing themselves; and, I think that our forefathers specifically worded the Constitution to protect that freedom of expression.

While she's made public apologies for her past actions, which is HER right to do, not everyone has to accept those apologies, which is THEIR right to do. And while it's been a very long time since she made those statements and took those actions, it's clear that some folks are never going to forgive her. That's something SHE'S going to have to live with.

She was not denied due process. Viewers have the right to express outrage, and QVC certainly has the right to protect its financial interests if letting Fonda appear is going to hit them in the wallet. That's the beauty of free enterprise and commerce.

No, I don't condone Fonda's actions in the past, but I defend her right to express her disagreement. The Constitution very strongly sees to that. Now, all these years later, the same argument is being used against her: the right of all of those people she offended and disrespected to exercise their right to express that disagreement in turn.

Karma's a bitch.

Sorry, but the way I see it, her rights end at the precise point that her expressing her opinion puts our men and women in combat at higher risk. You can get all technical and legal as you want, and it will not change the fact that she fraternized with the same enemy that fully intended to kill as many of her fellow Americans as they could.

Whether our military should have been there in the first place is an entirely separate debate. But once we order our people into combat, their well being and survival becomes more important than anybody's political or social opinions about anything.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead. And what you believe does not count for squat. The story is clear, and your interp is wrong. Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.

Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks. I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.

I used the phrase “I believe” simply because I could not recall the exact number from Kerry’s outfit who originally came out against him. I said I believed it was about twenty but, according to wiki, it was eleven. So, even though I recall it being higher, I will go with eleven.

But that does not change the fact that each and every one of them wore the same uniform and came away with just as many decorations as Kerry. Nope, these men were also heroes and they have at least as much credibility. And, perhaps, even more because they were willing to put themselves out there without any chance of reward. They were not running for anything.

Also, the number of veterans signing on against Kerry grew rapidly as his notoriety became known outside of Massachusetts. There was no internet or Cable News back when these events were unfolding so much of it was just the stuff of local lore until he threw himself into the national spotlight.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

I think that much of what is attributed to Jane Fonda's anti-war actions are basically made up or exaggerated. I do not deny that she went to Hanoi; nor do I deny that she made strong anti-US statements that served North Vietnamese propaganda. However, until she is tried in court for her actions and convicted of treason, she's not a traitor. In all these years, no one has made a successful case against her. This tells me that's because there is no evidence to support the charge.

If we truly believe in the Constitution, we have to acknowledge the right of people like Jane Fonda to express themselves no matter how unpopular the statement may be. Otherwise, citizens will begin to fear expressing themselves; and, I think that our forefathers specifically worded the Constitution to protect that freedom of expression.

...

Taking an active part in bringing about your countries defeat is not a simple act of protest.

While in Vietnam, Jane recorded many propaganda pieces for the North Vietnamese. These interviews were designed to do one thing and only one thing – demoralize American troops.

By comparison, an American woman was convicted of TREASON for doing the exact same thing during WW-II (she was one of the many Tokyo Roses).

So, regardless of whether Fonda was ever charged, there is plenty of evidence (such as the broadcasts) and also a precedent.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead. And what you believe does not count for squat. The story is clear, and your interp is wrong. Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.

Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks. I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.

I used the phrase “I believe” simply because I could not recall the exact number from Kerry’s outfit who originally came out against him. I said I believed it was about twenty but, according to wiki, it was eleven. So, even though I recall it being higher, I will go with eleven.

But that does not change the fact that each and every one of them wore the same uniform and came away with just as many decorations as Kerry. Nope, these men were also heroes and they have at least as much credibility. And, perhaps, even more because they were willing to put themselves out there without any chance of reward. They were not running for anything.

Also, the number of veterans signing on against Kerry grew rapidly as his notoriety became known outside of Massachusetts. There was no internet or Cable News back when these events were unfolding so much of it was just the stuff of local lore until he threw himself into the national spotlight.

The heroes (I can't deny that) were not there. Kerry's men were. I believe them before I do the officers or the rear admiral.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead. And what you believe does not count for squat. The story is clear, and your interp is wrong. Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.

Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks. I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.

I used the phrase “I believe” simply because I could not recall the exact number from Kerry’s outfit who originally came out against him. I said I believed it was about twenty but, according to wiki, it was eleven. So, even though I recall it being higher, I will go with eleven.

But that does not change the fact that each and every one of them wore the same uniform and came away with just as many decorations as Kerry. Nope, these men were also heroes and they have at least as much credibility. And, perhaps, even more because they were willing to put themselves out there without any chance of reward. They were not running for anything.

Also, the number of veterans signing on against Kerry grew rapidly as his notoriety became known outside of Massachusetts. There was no internet or Cable News back when these events were unfolding so much of it was just the stuff of local lore until he threw himself into the national spotlight.

The heroes (I can't deny that) were not there. Kerry's men were. I believe them before I do the officers or the rear admiral.

Sorry, Jake, but I don’t think you get it. They were there. They were commanding the other boats in Kerry’s squadron.

Admittedly, they were not on his boat (most of the time) but their boats were right there beside Kerry’s on the very same missions. And it was them (and not his crew) who lived and socialized with Kerry when they returned to the base after those missions. In fact, many of them won their decorations during the exact same battles Kerry won his.

Now, did some of them rally against him for pure political reasons? Sure, a few. But there were simply too many of them to attribute such rank motives to all of them.

I try to put myself in their place. What would it take to get me to sign that public document condemning a fellow vet who fought right beside me? Since I personally think it really doesn’t get much more serious than that, I’m inclined to believe that most of these people truly believe John Kerry did something wrong.

And, almost to a man, they were focused on his antics after he came home. The side-story crap about his decorations was the part of the story the media chose to sensationalize in an attempt to keep his campaign afloat. And it almost worked.

So I have no problem with anyone defending Kerry’s service (especially those in his crew that did). The navy determined he earned his decorations and, as far as I’m concerned, he did. But that does not make him any better (or any more believable) than those who fought right beside him.

Also, as in all walks of life, some turned into alcoholics but most did not.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The men on Kerry's boat say differently. Those officers were not on Kerry's boat. If they said those incidents of valor did not occur (remember such actions have to be vetted) at the time, according to those officers, their views were not considered worthy, thus are worthless. If they said it later, their words really don't matter.

 

[The Gadfly]

This thread is not about John Kerry. It is not about William Calley either. This is about Jane Fonda and her actions. Whether or not those actions legally constituted treason against the United States, one thing I do know: on the Wall are the names of 58,264 of my brothers, and 8 of my sisters who died. At least some of those names are there, as a direct result of Jane Fonda's aid to and encouragement of the NVA and the VC. How many? We can never know, but even if it is only one, that is one too many! We have the freedom to protest, it is true, but the use (or abuse) of that freedom has consequences. In this case that includes the loss of the the lives of young Americans serving this nation. Those names are not statistics, or abstractions; every single on of them belongs to an American, one of us; complete with hopes, dreams, feelings, a family, and a future that will never be. Some consequences!

So, when you brand the soldier with the mark of Cain, when you talk about the blood on his hands and the stains on his soul, I suggest you remember that the hands and souls of some who never fired a shot, or faced one, are not so squeaky clean either; and yes, Janie dear, it will take a lot more than soap, to wash away what's dripping from yours!

 

[tinydancer]

She married Tom Hayden. Nuff said. Cripes I lived those days and I was a freaking liberal that walked away from commie maniacs.

That's what they were. They were not anti war protestors. Hell's bells, they were pro communist take over of the world.

You had freaking Ayers and Bernie dedicating Prairie Fire to freaking Sirhan Sirhan for heavens sake.

We are not talking just happy left wing campers protesting war. They WANTED and DESIRED for the US and western democracies to be overthrown.

Look up Hayden and how many times he met with the VietCong in Europe.

Sheesh.

People better learn their history.

 

[Sallow]

Let's be clear here. The vietnamese didn't topple the khmer rouge regime because they had a tender concern for the 1/3 of the population being killed by them, they did it because after the end of the vietnam war, the khmer rouge attacked vietnam. As for Nixon, he ended the war started by democrats.

Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.

And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.

And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.

Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy. Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.

Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- did your commie pals do right by them? How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!

By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.

I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.

Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?

And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.

Asshole.

 

[tinydancer]

Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.

And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.

And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.

Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy. Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.

Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- did your commie pals do right by them? How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!

By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.

I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.

Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?

And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.

Asshole.

LBJ made a fortune. Take your hate out on Democrats. Call all the Dems vile and horrid because they were.And they are making a fortune again propogating all the new wars.

Hello Libya????????

I was a kid in those days. Who did I protest? Dems. The most disgusting pieces of shit on the planet. President JOHNSON D YES D made a killing off of 58,000 plus AMERICAN LIVES

Chicago didn't happen for nothing man.

 

[Sunni Man]

R

Taking an active part in bringing about your countries defeat is not a simple act of protest.

While in Vietnam, Jane recorded many propaganda pieces for the North Vietnamese. These interviews were designed to do one thing and only one thing – demoralize American troops.

By comparison, an American woman was convicted of TREASON for doing the exact same thing during WW-II (she was one of the many Tokyo Roses).

So, regardless of whether Fonda was ever charged, there is plenty of evidence (such as the broadcasts) and also a precedent.

The reason that Tokyo Rose's actions were treasonous was because we were in a "declared" war.

Which was not the case concerning Vietnam or Jane Fonda's trip there as an American citizen.