Words are cheap, Jane Fonda

[JakeStarkey]

Much of what you say, Gad, is true, but my liberal friends cared for the civilians, even if they showed poor understanding in jumping on the troops. Yes, LT Calley never should have held a command, and I still don't understand by CPT Medina and the BN XO didn't get hammered. Disgraceful.

I don't know if this part is true, but I have heard it was two Mormon GIs who turned their machine gun onto the rest of the PLT and told them to "cease firing or we will shoot you!" Hopefully, something decent happened on that terrible day.

 

[The Gadfly]

You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass. The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.

George W. Bush also served competently in the Air National Guard. He did not desert, he did his duty.

People like you, son, should not be permitted to vote.

Perhaps only veterans, who served faithfully like George Washington and Alexander Hamilton and James Monroe, should be allowed to vote.

Jake,
There are conflicting accounts of what Lt. Kerry did and did not do in Vietnam. I am not going to question the conduct of a fellow officer in the field, when I did not personally witness same, and the accounts of those who did vary widely; and I presume his medal citations are accurate. However, his conduct after he returned from Vietnam is not in dispute; it is a matter of record, and I find that conduct inappropriate and reprehensible.

 

[JakeStarkey]

His conduct after Vietnam is fully accurate and a matter of record and fair game.

What he did in Vietnam, according to the stories of the men who served on the boat, give no reason why any of us should pay attention to the alcoholic ravings of a man who should never have obtained flag rank.

 

[Patrick2]

You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass. The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.

Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is. A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Gadfly has the right of it, and a civilian like you who knows nothing receives the type of reply that such rantings as yours deserve: they show you know nothing.

 

[Patrick2]

The Gadfly has the right of it, and a civilian like you who knows nothing receives the type of reply that such rantings as yours deserve: they show you know nothing.

Lots of MILITARY who were there nailed him. End of story.

 

[The Gadfly]

You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass. The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.

Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is. A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.

Those hearings, and the procuring of false testimony, are the conduct I have the greatest problem with. Look, I'm not about to claim that every American troop in Vietnam was an angel; there are a few soldiers in every war who do terrible things, things that dishonor their uniform, and Vietnam was no exception. However, to paint the majority of American troops in Vietnam as mindless animals and war criminals who ran amok simply is not true and it unfairly sullied the honor of those of us who did our best to follow orders, act according to the laws of war, and to protect the innocent (and sometimes, that meant protecting them from our Vietnamese counterparts, as well as from the Cong and NVA). Yes, we were savage, even merciless, in battle, but most of us did anything but abuse the local civilians. I thought we were supposed to protect those poor people, and one of my deepest regrets is that we could not do more, and that ultimately, we were forced to abandon them, knowing what the communists would do to them. Personally, I feel sick over that, and always will, and I know other Vietnam vets who feel the same, and yet, according to Mr. Kerry, and "witnesses" who weren't even there, we are the bad guys? Why....just, WHY?

 

[Grace]

My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth! Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!

That's for your husband to decide, not you. You don't have the moral legitimacy to decide (1) her behavior treasonous, and (2) whether her remorse is true.

Don't like it? I don't care.

Well, Jake, I don't know when or where you served, but I do know I fought in Vietnam, so I think I have the appropriate "standing" to say the following: Jane Fonda gave aid and comfort , and made propaganda, for an armed enemy of the United States in wartime. (I do not care for such silly distinctions as "Vietnam was not a declared war" - morally, and to a soldier fighting there, it WAS a war). That, in my book, is treason. There is no question that Jane Fonda and others, some driven by ideology, some by honest belief, and some by self-aggrandizement, put themselves before their country, and helped the North Vietnamese win a war they lost on the battlefield. In the process, they deprived those of us who served there of the victory we fought, sweated and bled for, and over 58,000 of our brothers died for. Therefore:

Rest assured, that if I had been able somehow to get hold of that American Traitor *****, I would have made her look at the faces and mangled bodies of all the Vietnamese women, from toddlers to girls to old women, that her beloved little VC "freedom fighters" raped, mutilated, tortured and murdered, in ways too gruesome to describe here. I wish, that every image of Communist atrocity burned into my brain, and that of every Vietnam vet who saw them, could somehow be etched on her soul, so that she would have to spend eternity with the memory of just what it was she supported. I'd like for her to know just who the REAL murderers, torturers, rapists, and baby killers of Vietnam were, because they sure as hell weren't us Americans! Others may choose to forgive and forget; as for me, I have no interest in meeting any of my former foes, and shaking hands with them; I shake hands with men, NOT murdering, torturing, butchering scum. The enemy were NOT soldiers, they were the dregs of barbaric, depraved humanity! I hate every damn VC and NVA just as much now, as I did then, and I'll forgive Hanoi Jane, when the Jews forgive Hitler! I don't claim to speak for all of us, but the majority of Vietnam vets I know agree with me.

You can lecture me on the frailties of my unforgiving soul, but I promise you this; if I do go to hell for anything I've done, I will make it my personal mission, to hunt down the traitorous soul of that communist *****, and kick it from one end of hades to the other.

 

[The Gadfly]

Much of what you say, Gad, is true, but my liberal friends cared for the civilians, even if they showed poor understanding in jumping on the troops. Yes, LT Calley never should have held a command, and I still don't understand by CPT Medina and the BN XO didn't get hammered. Disgraceful.

I don't know if this part is true, but I have heard it was two Mormon GIs who turned their machine gun onto the rest of the PLT and told them to "cease firing or we will shoot you!" Hopefully, something decent happened on that terrible day.

Jake,
I think you're referring to WO Hugh Thompson's two door gunners; Thompson ordered them to fire on troops from 2nd Platoon, C Company if they tried to kill a group of Vietnamese civilians hiding in a bunker. WO Thompson and his crew seem to be some of the few who did the right thing that day. Calley might have been the worst culprit, but not the only one; IMO, some other officers were guilty of dereliction of duty, or worse. The whole thing still reeks, and was definitely NOT "normal"; not in my experience. Hugh Thompson said years later he could never forgive the men of that company for what they did that day. I can't either. There is no way you can justify something like that, no way at all.

 

[Patrick2]

You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass. The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.

Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is. A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.

Those hearings, and the procuring of false testimony, are the conduct I have the greatest problem with. Look, I'm not about to claim that every American troop in Vietnam was an angel; there are a few soldiers in every war who do terrible things, things that dishonor their uniform, and Vietnam was no exception. However, to paint the majority of American troops in Vietnam as mindless animals and war criminals who ran amok simply is not true and it unfairly sullied the honor of those of us who did our best to follow orders, act according to the laws of war, and to protect the innocent (and sometimes, that meant protecting them from our Vietnamese counterparts, as well as from the Cong and NVA). Yes, we were savage, even merciless, in battle, but most of us did anything but abuse the local civilians. I thought we were supposed to protect those poor people, and one of my deepest regrets is that we could not do more, and that ultimately, we were forced to abandon them, knowing what the communists would do to them. Personally, I feel sick over that, and always will, and I know other Vietnam vets who feel the same, and yet, according to Mr. Kerry, and "witnesses" who weren't even there, we are the bad guys? Why....just, WHY?

You soldiers did just fine there, but from what I've read you were let down by the civilian leaders. They say wars are to important to leave to generals - that was the first civilian-led war, and the results spoke for themselves.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?

If you feel Reagan qualifies, then you have to agree that Fonda also qualifies.

However, qualifying and actually being charged are two different things.

And that’s all we are saying, she should have been charged.

Reagan should have been impeached and removed from office.

Not one conservative ever agreed with that.

But he specifically fulfilled the legal definition of Treason with his Iran deal..and Violated the Constitution with his Contra deal.

So much for the "law abiding" conservatives.

You are correct, there are a lot of people who should have been charged but never were (including Jane Fonda).

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Has John Kerry been brought up yet?

If not - he should.

Woops - I just did.

Yikes! I did to.

Yeah..and?

What about John Kerry.

He bled for this country.

He saved his men.

And he spoke out against the war.

And conservative bastards lied about his record.

Dailymotion - Kerry Confronts Swift Boat Funder - a News & Politics video

I never said he didn’t do any of the things you listed.

I simply mentioned that he has been brought up (twice and, now, three times) on this thread.

Heck, I’ll even go as far as to admit that Kerry did a lot of other stuff besides the things you listed.

I think the only point is it is hard to talk about Jane Fonda and not mention John Kerry.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass. The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.

George W. Bush also served competently in the Air National Guard. He did not desert, he did his duty.

People like you, son, should not be permitted to vote.

Perhaps only veterans, who served faithfully like George Washington and Alexander Hamilton and James Monroe, should be allowed to vote.

Jake,
There are conflicting accounts of what Lt. Kerry did and did not do in Vietnam. I am not going to question the conduct of a fellow officer in the field, when I did not personally witness same, and the accounts of those who did vary widely; and I presume his medal citations are accurate. However, his conduct after he returned from Vietnam is not in dispute; it is a matter of record, and I find that conduct inappropriate and reprehensible.

I will only add that, since Kerry was an officer, he spent a lot more time with group of officers who condemned him then he did with the handful of enlisted men who stood with him.

To this day, the navy has strict segregation between officers and enlisted when it comes to living quarters and etc. So Kerry spent a lot more time with the officers who banded together to run his presidential bid aground then he did with the crew of his boat. He lived in the officer’s barracks and his crew lived in the enlisted barracks.

Also, those men who challenged Kerry were also decorated heroes and they deserve every bit the amount of respect for their service as the Kerry supporters demand for Kerry.

And, I agree, if the navy said Kerry earned all those decorations in four short months, as far as I’m concerned, he earned them.

And, yup, Kerry’s real notoriety begins when he touched-down back home.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is. A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.

Those hearings, and the procuring of false testimony, are the conduct I have the greatest problem with. Look, I'm not about to claim that every American troop in Vietnam was an angel; there are a few soldiers in every war who do terrible things, things that dishonor their uniform, and Vietnam was no exception. However, to paint the majority of American troops in Vietnam as mindless animals and war criminals who ran amok simply is not true and it unfairly sullied the honor of those of us who did our best to follow orders, act according to the laws of war, and to protect the innocent (and sometimes, that meant protecting them from our Vietnamese counterparts, as well as from the Cong and NVA). Yes, we were savage, even merciless, in battle, but most of us did anything but abuse the local civilians. I thought we were supposed to protect those poor people, and one of my deepest regrets is that we could not do more, and that ultimately, we were forced to abandon them, knowing what the communists would do to them. Personally, I feel sick over that, and always will, and I know other Vietnam vets who feel the same, and yet, according to Mr. Kerry, and "witnesses" who weren't even there, we are the bad guys? Why....just, WHY?

You soldiers did just fine there, but from what I've read you were let down by the civilian leaders. They say wars are to important to leave to generals - that was the first civilian-led war, and the results spoke for themselves.

Abraham Lincoln led the Civil War. Study the literature. FDR had no trouble telling the admirals and generals when to stand down and what to do. You are correct, though, in thanking the American men and women who served in Vietnam.

 

[JakeStarkey]

An officer's word is no better than an enlisted man's word, and his observation is inherently no worthier. When bullets fly around the men closest to Kerry, listen to them before those further away. No drunk retired flag officer deserves respect when his rantings are obviously only that, ranting hatred. The enlisted observations, since they were the ones closest to Kerry in action, will always be given more weight than those who were further away in the action.

 

[uscitizen]

Ahh the thread has now morphed to an anti Kerry thread.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

An officer's word is no better than an enlisted man's word, and his observation is inherently no worthier. When bullets fly around the men closest to Kerry, listen to them before those further away. No drunk retired flag officer deserves respect when his rantings are obviously only that, ranting hatred. The enlisted observations, since they were the ones closest to Kerry in action, will always be given more weight than those who were further away in the action.

I believe there were about 20 decorated officers from Kerry’s swift boat squadron who were the first to come forward against Kerry. These officers were later joined by others including at least one Medal Of Honor winner (and including at least one member of Kerry’s crew). And I believe they were sober when they did this.

That said, sure, Kerry and his crew lived through some harrowing times together. And it only makes sense that (most of them) would stick up for each other when the time came. But so wouldn’t anyone under similar circumstances.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Ahh the thread has now morphed to an anti Kerry thread.

I noticed that to.

I guess it’s hard to talk about one without eventually mentioning the other.

Probably has something to do with that “two peas in a pod” thing.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead. And what you believe does not count for squat. The story is clear, and your interp is wrong. Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.

Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks. I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.

 

[logical4u]

Treason? Now the Reagan administration commited treason. Govt employees dealing weapons to an avowed enemy of the USA.

Is that like this administration supplying arms to mexican drug lords that will overthrow that country and are crimminals in this country? Funny, how you worshippers of O, are totally silent about that.