Why the Sudden Doubts about the Verdict?

[SweetSue92]

No, felony SOL goes out to something like 2027.



Against FPOTUS#45? No.

FPOTUS#45 is charged New York business law violation, not campaign finance fraud. Cohen was charged and convicted of the campaign fraud. FPOTUS#45's legal jeopardy comes from the scheme to launder the payments through his business entity. If he had drawn the money out of his personal account can paid directly without involving the business, he wouldn't be in legal jeopardy now.

WW

If this is such a solid case why did no less than the NYT call it a "historic mistake"?

 

[SweetSue92]

No, felony SOL goes out to something like 2027.



Against FPOTUS#45? No.

FPOTUS#45 is charged New York business law violation, not campaign finance fraud. Cohen was charged and convicted of the campaign fraud. FPOTUS#45's legal jeopardy comes from the scheme to launder the payments through his business entity. If he had drawn the money out of his personal account can paid directly without involving the business, he wouldn't be in legal jeopardy now.

WW

Most of those indictments hinge on whether Trump did this for campaign purposes, which are not proven to say the least.

It's really sickening when otherwise intelligent people let their hurt feelings get in the way of clear thinking. Yet here we are.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If this is such a solid case why did no less than the NYT call it a "historic mistake"?

You'd have to ask the NYT.

I talk about what happened at trial, not what the NYT says.

WW

 

[SweetSue92]

You'd have to ask the NYT.

I talk about what happened at trial, not what the NYT says.

WW

The indictments are linked to a crime that didn't happen.

Anything the jury convicts him of will be thrown out on appeal, even if they do convict. And it's all backfired on Dems anyway

 

[WorldWatcher]

Most of those indictments hinge on whether Trump did this for campaign purposes, which are not proven to say the least.

It's really sickening when otherwise intelligent people let their hurt feelings get in the way of clear thinking. Yet here we are.

That's not true Sue.

That case hinges on whether the jury believes that FPOTUS#45 falsified business records to hid Cohen's illegal activities. Cohen was charged and convicted of campaign fraud. The prosecution doesn't need to prove that FPOTUS#45 committed campaign fraud, only that he falsified business records to hide Cohen's activities.

A subtle but important difference.

WW

 

[SweetSue92]

That's not true Sue.

That case hinges on whether the jury believes that FPOTUS#45 falsified business records to hid Cohen's illegal activities. Cohen was charged and convicted of campaign fraud. The prosecution doesn't need to prove that FPOTUS#45 committed campaign fraud, only that he falsified business records to hide Cohen's activities.

A subtle but important difference.

WW

And your case hinges on mind-reading. Did he do this for the campaign, or just cause it's shady business?

The strangest thing to me is how quickly you Dems because Moralizing Purists. Every shady business is dragged into court now? What's next--sodomy laws? No liquor sales on Sunday?

 

[WorldWatcher]

And your case hinges on mind-reading. Did he do this for the campaign, or just cause it's shady business?

Isn't "my case", please don't try to go personal.

My discussion isn't about "mind reading" it's the discussion of facts and evidence presented at trial.

The strangest thing to me is how quickly you Dems because Moralizing Purists. Every shady business is dragged into court now? What's next--sodomy laws? No liquor sales on Sunday?

I'm not a DEM, I voted GOP in every election since 1978 and even voted GOP in the 2016 election. Voted twice for Kasich (primary and write in in the general). The only vote for DEM was Biden in 2020 because FPOTUS#45 needed to be told "You're fired", Biden was a placeholder term in my mind and I think the DEMs have made a mistake in not running someone else in 2024.

However I grew up in New York and knew the type of person Trump is/was and tried to warn people that he would be disastrous for the GOP. I voted for Haley in the primary and will likely vote for her gain in the general as another write in.

WW

 

[SweetSue92]

Isn't "my case", please don't try to go personal.

My discussion isn't about "mind reading" it's the discussion of facts and evidence presented at trial.



I'm not a DEM, I voted GOP in every election since 1978 and even voted GOP in the 2016 election. Voted twice for Kasich (primary and write in in the general). The only vote for DEM was Biden in 2020 because FPOTUS#45 needed to be told "You're fired", Biden was a placeholder term in my mind and I think the DEMs have made a mistake in not running someone else in 2024.

However I grew up in New York and knew the type of person Trump is/was and tried to warn people that he would be disastrous for the GOP. I voted for Haley in the primary and will likely vote for her gain in the general as another write in.

WW

This is bothersome to say the least, and here's why:

It is deeply unamerican to drag someone through the so-called "justice system" because you "knew the type of person Trump is/was". In the old America, people could be blazing moronic jerkholes but you didn't gleefully cheer at trumped up charges against them.

Yet, here we are

 

[AntonToo]

No. You made the division, you lie in it. We're not leaving

The division is in your underdeveloped head that rw politico mills shit into.

Pardon my French.

 

[Seymour Flops]

The accountant reporting to Weisselberg for 30 years under oath verified it was Weisselberg chicken scratch, that he could identify anywhere. That accountant also had hand written notes presented to the court as evidence, easy to read, spelling out what Weisselberg told him to do, and how to set up, paying Cohen....by doubling expenses to tax them up.......etc etc etc.....

Which only means that Cohen was reimbursed for the 130K that he insisted on laying out himself, when the Trump organization could have easily paid that perfectly legal expense. Why did he want to do that? Yet another opportunity to overcharge his employer by tens of thousands of dollars.

Cohen even added on the supposed 50K payment to Red Finch on the same piece of paper. He admitted on the stand that he only should have recieved 20K and that he was simply stealing the rest.

For that, on the word of people like that, you think a former president should go to prison when he is the frontrunner to be president again? You think anyone else would even be charged with evidence like that?

Nothing on that paper - nothing - was written by Trump, or implicates Trump's involvement in the repayment plan. No one has testified that Trump knew anything about it, nor that Trump made any entries into any business records, much less false entries with intent to defraud and to cover up another crime.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I will, but what if the jury mostly votes for a conviction but one or two jurors refuse to convict? Technically a mistrial, but almost a criminal conviction.

As we used to say, "almost only counts in horse shoes and hanger-nades."

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

A reread of the transcript indicates Trump's people are very, very worried.

 

[Rawley]

Cohen was reimbursed for the hush money payment for Stormy's NDA that he fronted in 2016. The legal work he did in 2016 was covered by his payroll check. He was a salaried employee at the time to n 2016, and his legal work was already paid to him, through his job and payroll check.

The 2017 $35,000 a month payments to him was for the expense he fronted for Trump's NDA with Stormy. It is written down in two different pieces of evidence presented, and how they came to the $420,000 total/$35,000 a month for 12 months by upping for taxes he'd have to pay. The payments were not legal fees for 2017 legal work Cohen was doing in 2017 for Trump or the Trump organization.

Ok. I get paid by clients in 2024 for work done in 2023. SHould I be going to prison too?

It makes no sense for the Trump Organization to pay Cohen double the $130,000 and pay him $260,000 for it, when the $130k could have been turned in as a business expense if it was one, for $130,000....And be done with it. Why play with the books and claim it was a retainer or upfront legal fees paid monthly to Cohen and cost the company double the amount, if it were not to cover up the hush money?

It's called "grossing up" a bonus to account for taxes. It happens 10,000 times a day, every day. Do these employers need to go to prison to go to prison?

they all testified he had to know,.

Your coworkers testify Care usually has a coffee. So she had to have coffee on December 13, 2006. Really? you think you should be sent to prison on the basis of that testimony?

or have testified to make one believe that he had to know because of them describing how he micro managed.... he was hands on with his business expense. And why would Trump be paying Cohen $35k a month out of his account for LEGAL WORK done, when there was no legal work done? Can you explain that....?

Uh, the legal work was done. Did you miss that? This is all about Cohen negotiating an NDA with the porn actress' lawyer.

What do you actually think Trump thought he was paying Cohen, who no longer was working on Trump's payroll staff, $35000 a month for, when Trump was President and in D.C?

I'm pretty sure he was thinking about running the frigging country. Not $35K checks to his lawyer.

Cohen was working for the Trump org and paid a salary by payroll in 2016 and prior....coincidentally he made about $35000 a month when an employee. Why would they fire Cohen in 2016 after Trump went to Washington, to only rehire him as a freelancer?

They didn't rehire him. It was compensation for work done. THis really ain't rocket science.

Cohen didn't do any legal work for Trump while he was President in 2017, let alone $35000 a month worth of legal work.

Why do you believe it was for legal work done in 2017?

You keep chanting it was for legal work done in 2017. It wasn't.

P.S. I messed up the quotes somehow....? There was one where it mentioned sending him to jail that I cut out, somehow???

Anyway, he's not going to go to jail, no matter how much some liberals on this site are salivating for it.
As you said, this is way too small to send a former President to prison for imo....61

Let's be clear here. The charges your cult brought in NY are intended to put Trump in prison for the rest of his life. This isn't some civil fine. They want to put him in prison for the rest of his life.

You're a smart lady and apparently not hyperpartisan. How you can support what your party is doing, and buy and regurgitate their bullshit, is beyond me.

 

[AntonToo]

Which only means that Cohen was reimbursed for the 130K that he insisted on laying out himself, when the Trump organization could have easily paid that perfectly legal expense.

No silly, they could not.

They would then have to declare NDA payment as a campaign contribution, defeating the whole purpose of paying off Stormy to keep affair quiet during the campaign.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If this is such a solid case why did no less than the NYT call it a "historic mistake"?

That was actually just one person. Maybe you are confused as to how op eds.work.

 

[Seymour Flops]

No silly, they could not.

They would then have to declare NDA payment as a campaign contribution, defeating the whole purpose of paying off Stormy to keep affair quiet during the campaign.

The idea that paying for an NDA is a campaign contribution is absurd. It was rejected by federal prosecutors and by Bragg himself until the Atlanta case crumbled under the weight of Flatback Fani’s corruption.

In desperation they realized the Manhattan case - no matter how weak it was - was the only one the could try during the election year.

 

[AntonToo]

The idea that paying an NDA is a campaign contribution is absurd.

...It's ABSURD that paying a pornstar to keep quiet about fucking Trump is a contribution to his election campaign?

It's not absurd, it's common sense itself.

Absurd are your idiotic arguments.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The idea that paying an NDA is a campaign contribution is absurd. It was rejected by federal prosecutors...

Convicted felon and disbarred lawyer Michael Cohen agrees.

..... ..... ..... Oh Wait!

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... Never mind.

WW

 

[Seymour Flops]

...It's ABSURD that paying a pornstar to keep quiet about fucking Trump is a contribution to his election campaign?

It's not absurd, it's common sense itself.

Absurd are your idiotic arguments.

So nobody pays for NDAs unless they are running for office?

Of course they do. Because their are plenty of reasons for a married celebrity not want a porn whore telling lies about him that have nothing to do with running for office.

Campaign expenses are rallies, travel for campaign speeches, air time for political ads, things directly related to the campaign.

Your crazy conspiracy theory is like saying paying his light bill is a campaign expense because it would be embarrassing for the frontrunner to have his electricity disconnected.

 

[WorldWatcher]

So nobody pays for NDAs unless they are running for office?

Of course they do. Because their are plenty of reasons for a married celebrity not want a porn whore telling lies about him that have nothing to do with running for office.

Since testimony before the jury was that FPOTUS#45 attempted to stiff Daniels on the payment until after the election and once the election was over there would be no need to pay her and the story could come out...

So given that evidence presented.

Please explain what these plenty of reasons but for the campaign existed JUST FOR THE 11-DAY period?

WW