Why support Israel?

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

From the Lavon affair, to the U.S.S Liberty bombing, to Jonathan Pollard..... It just seems to be a one sided affair.... Especially considering support for Israel makes Muslims more angry at the U.S.

Can someone please tell us what's the purpose for us to support Israel?

Just because you read about Israel in the bible, or because they're Jewish.
Really?
as if those are logical explanations?

You could walk the streets of Tal Aviv and nothing would happen to you. If you walked the streets of Islamabad, for instance, there's far greater chance of you meeting a violent, painful end. I'll stick with the Israelis. You can support the people that want to kill you.

The Islamic Tatars haven't committed nearly as much terrorism as Jews, or Catholic Basque, or Catholic Irish.

I don't think it's so much a problem with Islam but more of a problem with Mediterranean's.

I don't like Mediterranean's point blank.

I'm glad I moved out of that Med Guido dive Putnam Lake, NY, such aggressive, touchy, unfriendly people those Italians.

at least here in Pawling, it's less Italian.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Because Israel is America's staunchest ally.

Like when Israel shared their 9/11 intel with us?

Congratulations. It's possible that you've said the dumbest hing ever said on USMB.

Even without all the messed up things like this Israel did to the U.S.

I'd still fail to see how they'd be #1, considering they've never fought in a war with the U.S.
Unlike France, Poland, Britain, Australia etc. who have fought in many wars with the U.S.

None of these countries face annihilation and have to struggle their own wars of existence.

Israel has total of less than 200,000 troops. How exactly do you expect a state to survive if we send troops overseas??

Not only you're confusing, but you're not making ANY kind of sense, whatsoever.

Oh yeah, Poland didn't have to struggle with their own wars of existence?

Haha, yeah sure.

Millions of Polish Catholics also died in WW2.

Poland's Deluge + Cossack Uprisings in the mid 17th century killed up to 1/2 of Poland's Polish population.
It was about as bad as the Holocaust.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Why support Israel?
※→ et al,

I think we jumped the tracks here. Of course there has been historical events of decimation focused on one or another people. In the time since the beginning of recorded history, there has only been about 400 year when the world was totally at peace. Hell, even the US has been fighting one conflict or another nearly 93% of its political existence.

Why we support Israel is not so much about territory, politics or religion ⇔ as it is about the preservation and restoration of a culture and a people (Jewish Emancipation). Yes, many people say that the conflict was initiated over the territory. But that is like saying WWII start in 1939; when actually the conditions for war were set in the Treaty of Versailles after World War I. And with the emergence of the Age of Enlightenment in Europe (the idea that "reason" should trump "faith"), the idea of Jewish Emancipation followed closely behind on its heels.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007427
Things like "reason" are hard to grasp. But faith (the bibles and scriptures) and land (the territories) were tangible; and lands could lead to power, wealth and influence.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

Nope, but I do believe that the Soviet NKVD was more Jewish than Russian in the early - mid 1930's, as factual documentation supports that roughly 40% of the NKVD was Jewish, and roughly 35% were Russian, furthermore the founder, and head of the NKVD was a Jew Genrikh Yagoda.

You have just lost the argument. By making a distinction between [Russian] Jews and Russians, you are stating that Russian Jews are not Russians. If Russian Jews are not Russian then they must be some other nationality. Portuguese? Swedish? Irish, perhaps? Because if Russian Jews are none of these and belong to no nation then they ought to make a state for themselves. This is the argument or the creation if Israel. ... I take a different view.

Please check how many different nationalities live in Russia and are officially recognized, before spouting any further bs on the subject.
Xenophobia.

People born in Russia are Russians, not Portuguese.

Delusional and dead wrong. Classic Xenophobia.
Russia is a multi-national country, with 21 national-republics and more than 185 recognized ethnicities.
"Hebrews" - is the official word they use referring to Jews.

The day I take my definition of a nation from the Russians or the Israelis is the day I stop thinking.

In order to think You need facts, a thing You try really hard to be offended by.
Xenophobia, which You portray pretty well, was one of the main reasons Jews had to build Israel.

Is it a problem that Jews identify with their tribe/nation, and be citizens of countries other than Israel? How about Greeks or Armenians in Your country, is their identity a threat as well?

 

[Eloy]

You have just lost the argument. By making a distinction between [Russian] Jews and Russians, you are stating that Russian Jews are not Russians. If Russian Jews are not Russian then they must be some other nationality. Portuguese? Swedish? Irish, perhaps? Because if Russian Jews are none of these and belong to no nation then they ought to make a state for themselves. This is the argument or the creation if Israel. ... I take a different view.

Please check how many different nationalities live in Russia and are officially recognized, before spouting any further bs on the subject.
Xenophobia.

People born in Russia are Russians, not Portuguese.

Delusional and dead wrong. Classic Xenophobia.
Russia is a multi-national country, with 21 national-republics and more than 185 recognized ethnicities.
"Hebrews" - is the official word they use referring to Jews.

The day I take my definition of a nation from the Russians or the Israelis is the day I stop thinking.

In order to think You need facts, a thing You try really hard to be offended by.
Xenophobia, which You portray pretty well, was one of the main reasons Jews had to build Israel.

Is it a problem that Jews identify with their tribe/nation, and be citizens of countries other than Israel? How about Greeks or Armenians in Your country, is their identity a threat as well?

You will not persuade anyone to your view if you call them names.
Unlike Zionists, I am not xenophobic.
But the topic is not about me; it is about Israel and why the Americans should support Israel.
The question is unclear because some people will interpret 'Israel' as the justification for a Jewish state in the Middle East to the massacres of Palestinian children and other civilians in Gaza and all the Israeli policies in between.

You maintain that all Jews, for example Jews living in San Carlos, California, identify more with Israel than the United States. What concerns me is that you might be right.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Why support Israel?
※→ Eloy, et al,

I have no reason to suspect that the Jewish Community is any less American then myself.

You maintain that all Jews, for example Jews living in San Carlos, California, identify more with Israel than the United States. What concerns me is that you might be right.

(COMMENT)

They are certainly not bordering on participating in levying War against America, or in adhering to Enemies of the US, rendering Support → Aid and Comfort to any enemy of the nation.

In the global climate of the day, supporting a cause is a personal choice; like Doctors Without Borders, Water.org, or Save the Children etc. Being forced to choose between the two (Supporting America or Supporting Israel) is a very false dilemma. You can do both. This is not a matter of loyalty or allegiance. Americans can always believe in supporting an ally or common cause (ideas of democracy and regional peace) they think is right and just; that does not effect a duty to our nation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

Please check how many different nationalities live in Russia and are officially recognized, before spouting any further bs on the subject.
Xenophobia.

People born in Russia are Russians, not Portuguese.

Delusional and dead wrong. Classic Xenophobia.
Russia is a multi-national country, with 21 national-republics and more than 185 recognized ethnicities.
"Hebrews" - is the official word they use referring to Jews.

The day I take my definition of a nation from the Russians or the Israelis is the day I stop thinking.

In order to think You need facts, a thing You try really hard to be offended by.
Xenophobia, which You portray pretty well, was one of the main reasons Jews had to build Israel.

Is it a problem that Jews identify with their tribe/nation, and be citizens of countries other than Israel? How about Greeks or Armenians in Your country, is their identity a threat as well?

You will not persuade anyone to your view if you call them names.
Unlike Zionists, I am not xenophobic.
But the topic is not about me; it is about Israel and why the Americans should support Israel.
The question is unclear because some people will interpret 'Israel' as the justification for a Jewish state in the Middle East to the massacres of Palestinian children and other civilians in Gaza and all the Israeli policies in between.

You maintain that all Jews, for example Jews living in San Carlos, California, identify more with Israel than the United States. What concerns me is that you might be right.

Do You feel the same about US/EU citizens that identify as Palestinians?

 

[Eloy]

RE: Why support Israel?
※→ Eloy, et al,

I have no reason to suspect that the Jewish Community is any less American then myself.

You maintain that all Jews, for example Jews living in San Carlos, California, identify more with Israel than the United States. What concerns me is that you might be right.

(COMMENT)

They are certainly not bordering on participating in levying War against America, or in adhering to Enemies of the US, rendering Support → Aid and Comfort to any enemy of the nation.

In the global climate of the day, supporting a cause is a personal choice; like Doctors Without Borders, Water.org, or Save the Children etc. Being forced to choose between the two (Supporting America or Supporting Israel) is a very false dilemma. You can do both. This is not a matter of loyalty or allegiance. Americans can always believe in supporting an ally or common cause (ideas of democracy and regional peace) they think is right and just; that does not effect a duty to our nation.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel has used agents to spy on American intelligence and their prime minister used an address to Congress to argue against U.S. policy toward Iran. Unlike yourself, many Americans would be uncomfortable knowing that their fellow citizens owed an allegiance to a foreign country and thereby wanting American policy to reflect that when it comes to international affairs. To profess that American Jews put Israel first is good to know.

 

[Eloy]

People born in Russia are Russians, not Portuguese.

Delusional and dead wrong. Classic Xenophobia.
Russia is a multi-national country, with 21 national-republics and more than 185 recognized ethnicities.
"Hebrews" - is the official word they use referring to Jews.

The day I take my definition of a nation from the Russians or the Israelis is the day I stop thinking.

In order to think You need facts, a thing You try really hard to be offended by.
Xenophobia, which You portray pretty well, was one of the main reasons Jews had to build Israel.

Is it a problem that Jews identify with their tribe/nation, and be citizens of countries other than Israel? How about Greeks or Armenians in Your country, is their identity a threat as well?

You will not persuade anyone to your view if you call them names.
Unlike Zionists, I am not xenophobic.
But the topic is not about me; it is about Israel and why the Americans should support Israel.
The question is unclear because some people will interpret 'Israel' as the justification for a Jewish state in the Middle East to the massacres of Palestinian children and other civilians in Gaza and all the Israeli policies in between.

You maintain that all Jews, for example Jews living in San Carlos, California, identify more with Israel than the United States. What concerns me is that you might be right.

Do You feel the same about US/EU citizens that identify as Palestinians?

I know of no such cases.

 

[Shusha]

I know of no such cases.

You know of not a single American citizen who identifies as Palestinian? I can give you a list, if you'd like. But why don't we start with Linda Sarsour.

Can Linda be loyal to the US and also loyal to the Palestinian cause? If not, why not? If yes, why can't Jews?

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

RE: Why support Israel?
※→ et al,

I think we jumped the tracks here. Of course there has been historical events of decimation focused on one or another people. In the time since the beginning of recorded history, there has only been about 400 year when the world was totally at peace. Hell, even the US has been fighting one conflict or another nearly 93% of its political existence.

Why we support Israel is not so much about territory, politics or religion ⇔ as it is about the preservation and restoration of a culture and a people (Jewish Emancipation). Yes, many people say that the conflict was initiated over the territory. But that is like saying WWII start in 1939; when actually the conditions for war were set in the Treaty of Versailles after World War I. And with the emergence of the Age of Enlightenment in Europe (the idea that "reason" should trump "faith"), the idea of Jewish Emancipation followed closely behind on its heels.
Things like "reason" are hard to grasp. But faith (the bibles and scriptures) and land (the territories) were tangible; and lands could lead to power, wealth and influence.

Most Respectfully,
R

The issue is to make such a Jewish homeland, people were displaced from lands they lived on for thousands of years.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Even without all the messed up things like this Israel did to the U.S.

I'd still fail to see how they'd be #1, considering they've never fought in a war with the U.S.
Unlike France, Poland, Britain, Australia etc. who have fought in many wars with the U.S.

Like Iran & Iraq?
By lending 1,000 soldiers each vs 250,000 US soldiers?
Plus the Arabs stipulated no Israelis in any Middle East conflicts.

Iran?
Iraq?
We see them as boogiemen who are war worthy because.. because.. because?
Well, we certainly don't seem to care much about numerous African, or East Asian tyrants.
Why is Iraq, and Iran so special in the World sphere?

Oil.
Like you didn't know that.
Maybe you don't.

What about Venezuela's oil tyrant issue?

Yeah, we got such low oil prices from going over there. (rolls eyes)

Grasping much?
The US ever gave a damn about getting oil from Venezuela?
Really?

Well, it would be hard to say why we went into Iraq, W Bush of course spoke of weapons of mass destruction as the pretext.
Which those weapons of mass destruction of course would pose more of a threat to Israel, than the U.S.

So, it would in fact be an assumption to say it's about oil, or about Israel.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Which countries did more for Jews than Poland, or the U.S?

Denmark comes to mind. She saved all but 102 of her Jews.

Denmark had just 10,000 or so Jews, Poland had about 3,500,000 Jews or so.

I'm so sorry that the proportionate difference doesn't register.

Of course it was much easier to send 10,000 Jews to Sweden, by Denmark, than for Poland to send 3,500,000 Jews to Sweden.

Especially considering that the invasion of Poland gave them less time to prepare.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Because Israel is America's staunchest ally.

Suck it, Joo-haters!

Haha, good joke.

If true, why did Britain, Poland, Australia, and Spain fight in Iraq with the U.S, but not Israel?

Come to think about it, Which war did Israel fight with the U.S in?
I can't think of any?
Can you?

When did usa send troops to fight alongside Israel?

Did I miss anything?

So, then the U.S, and Israel are not really "allies" this is just a propaganda by idiots?

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

From the Lavon affair, to the U.S.S Liberty bombing, to Jonathan Pollard..... It just seems to be a one sided affair.... Especially considering support for Israel makes Muslims more angry at the U.S.

Can someone please tell us what's the purpose for us to support Israel?

Just because you read about Israel in the bible, or because they're Jewish.
Really?
as if those are logical explanations?

Our very existence makes them angry; they know their 'culture and violent political ideology has failed miserably to make them Masters Of The Earth, and instead just turned them into stagnant shitholes wherein they focus on eating each other alive.

Oh contraire, as much as I dislike it, and fight to resist it, Islam will grow, simply because of higher birth rates, and it's aggressive conversion processes.

 

[Shusha]

The issue is to make such a Jewish homeland, people were displaced from lands they lived on for thousands of years.

No. The displacement was a direct result of Arab hostility to the presence of Jews.

 

[Shusha]

Denmark had just 10,000 or so Jews, Poland had about 3,500,000 Jews or so.

I'm so sorry that the proportionate difference doesn't register.

Of course it was much easier to send 10,000 Jews to Sweden, by Denmark, than for Poland to send 3,500,000 Jews to Sweden.

Especially considering that the invasion of Poland gave them less time to prepare.

Sure. Proportions. As a percentage Denmark managed to save 99% of her Jews. Poland managed to save 12% of her Jews. Were there circumstances which made it harder for one than the other to save Jews -- of course. Were there ideologies in place which made the saving of Jews more important to one than the other -- of course.

Here's the thing, to try to wrench this back to topic -- one of the reasons to support Israel is that Israel's intent is to save ALL of the Jews. Not just her Jews, but all of the Jews worldwide. Because they are STILL being persecuted by people like you. They are still being executed because.....Joooooos. And the Jewish people need a safe place to retreat to, when persecutions become inevitable.

 

[Picaro]

RE: Why support Israel?
※→ et al,

I think we jumped the tracks here. Of course there has been historical events of decimation focused on one or another people. In the time since the beginning of recorded history, there has only been about 400 year when the world was totally at peace. Hell, even the US has been fighting one conflict or another nearly 93% of its political existence.

Why we support Israel is not so much about territory, politics or religion ⇔ as it is about the preservation and restoration of a culture and a people (Jewish Emancipation). Yes, many people say that the conflict was initiated over the territory. But that is like saying WWII start in 1939; when actually the conditions for war were set in the Treaty of Versailles after World War I. And with the emergence of the Age of Enlightenment in Europe (the idea that "reason" should trump "faith"), the idea of Jewish Emancipation followed closely behind on its heels.
Things like "reason" are hard to grasp. But faith (the bibles and scriptures) and land (the territories) were tangible; and lands could lead to power, wealth and influence.

Most Respectfully,
R

The issue is to make such a Jewish homeland, people were displaced from lands they lived on for thousands of years.

lol nonsense. The faux 'Palestinians' squatting in Gaza and the West Bank haven't been there 'thousands of years'; the vast majority of them migrated there when the Ottomans and British began economic development of the area in the last 3 decades of the 19th century. they are also not 'stateless', except by their own actions, they are Syrians and Egyptians and Iraqis for the most part. 'Palestinians' is a fiction invented by Arafat and others in the 1960's. Nobody was 'displaced' by Jews, that's nonsense. If you want to discuss Jews Behaving Badly, at least try to cite real history, instead of stupid propaganda; there is plenty in human history to discuss about people behaving badly, and Jews as a group aren't exceptional in that regard, but then you have the problem of trying to convince sane people they behaved more badly than their neighbors did, a blatantly impossible position to defend.

 

[Picaro]

Poland owes the Jewish people and should not look for any gratitude.

True. Most of eastern Europe was as bad or worse than Nazis, but of course they all sweep their dirty launder under the Hitler meme, as if they had nothing to do with it; same for most of Europe, actually.

And the US gainst alot from Israel. If it wouldn't, it wouldn't have helped the state. USA does nothing out of real kindness. It's all a matter of what they get from it

Just like every other country on the globe.

that's certainly the way the U.S. State Dept. and most of the pols work it.

Haha, another good joke.

No, no one in Eastern Europe was as bad as the Nazis, well Soviets were but not towards Jews, but rather by a NKVD which was predominantly Jewish.

The fact remains that while there were some Nazi collaborators all over Europe, this also includes Jews, and always included Germans as the biggest factors.

I understand Polish schools don't tell their kids the entire truth, and leave out all the facts in whitewashing their own sorry past. Polish villagers would cheer when local Jews were rounded up by their Mayors and ordered to the trains, Polish engineers drove the trains stuffed with Jews to the death camps with full knowledge of what was going on in the Operation Reinhard camps, the very reason Hitler chose Poland for those camps was because they knew few Poles would complain or even care in the first place, Polish 'Reds' and 'Blues' were a big help to the Nazi extermination program, the Reds guarded the trains and train stations keeping Jews from escaping, the Blues manned the perimeters of the Ghettoes to keep any from escaping those, helped round them up. The Nazis actually had problems finding enough German soldiers who could stand working at the death camps, so they relied on Poles and Ukrainians for staffing the lower ranks at those camps, no problem finding any to work at them among eastern Europeans. You can try and play the 'moral equivalence' game, but you will fail miserably at it. It couldn't have happened without Poles and their enthusiasm, and after the war many Jews had to remain in concentration camps because most who left and tried to return home in Poland were murdered by their former neighbors, so quit pissing on our legs and trying to tell us it's just raining.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Poland owes the Jewish people and should not look for any gratitude.

True. Most of eastern Europe was as bad or worse than Nazis, but of course they all sweep their dirty launder under the Hitler meme, as if they had nothing to do with it; same for most of Europe, actually.

And the US gainst alot from Israel. If it wouldn't, it wouldn't have helped the state. USA does nothing out of real kindness. It's all a matter of what they get from it

Just like every other country on the globe.

that's certainly the way the U.S. State Dept. and most of the pols work it.

Haha, another good joke.

No, no one in Eastern Europe was as bad as the Nazis, well Soviets were but not towards Jews, but rather by a NKVD which was predominantly Jewish.

The fact remains that while there were some Nazi collaborators all over Europe, this also includes Jews, and always included Germans as the biggest factors.

I understand Polish schools don't tell their kids the entire truth, and leave out all the facts in whitewashing their own sorry past. Polish villagers would cheer when local Jews were rounded up by their Mayors and ordered to the trains, Polish engineers drove the trains stuffed with Jews to the death camps with full knowledge of what was going on in the Operation Reinhard camps, the very reason Hitler chose Poland for those camps was because they knew few Poles would complain or even care in the first place, Polish 'Reds' and 'Blues' were a big help to the Nazi extermination program, the Reds guarded the trains and train stations keeping Jews from escaping, the Blues manned the perimeters of the Ghettoes to keep any from escaping those, helped round them up. The Nazis actually had problems finding enough German soldiers who could stand working at the death camps, so they relied on Poles and Ukrainians for staffing the lower ranks at those camps, no problem finding any to work at them among eastern Europeans. You can try and play the 'moral equivalence' game, but you will fail miserably at it. It couldn't have happened without Poles and their enthusiasm, and after the war many Jews had to remain in concentration camps because most who left and tried to return home in Poland were murdered by their former neighbors, so quit pissing on our legs and trying to tell us it's just raining.

You're very retarded, and a propagandist.
Which pretty much means you're vermin.

Truth is far more Poles fought the Nazis than fought with the Nazis.

For example about 1,000,000 Poles fought the Nazis in the Polish army , as opposed to 10,000 Poles who fought for the Nazis in the Polish Blue Police.

The Jewish Ghetto Police Nazi collaborators were worse than Polish Blue Police Nazi collaborators according to Jewish Historian Emanuel Ringelblum, who lived his last days in the Nazi German Warsaw Ghetto.

So, actually some Jews themselves also fought with the Nazis.