Zone1 Why Jews shall either convert to Christianity or reject Talmud?

[Meriweather]

Paul did not write all those letters to his followers?

No, he did not write 'all' the letters.

Did not all of his followers become the followers of what he wrote about Jesus, ressurection and salvation?

Paul did teach about Jesus, crucified; the resurrection; and salvation.

Did they not become the first Christians?

Paul did not teach in Jerusalem. The first Christians were from there before Paul ever believed in Christ. He was the latecomer.

 

[Meriweather]

Either you do know what Paul wrote, by reading his letters, or you do not know what he wrote at all, believing that it all actually comes from Jesus and the Apostles as you have said in previous posts.

You may want to stop while you are behind. Anyone who was read Paul's letter even an eighth as much as I have knows them better than you. You advertise how little you know them with every word you write.

Are you sure you wouldn't prefer to talk about your faith, the faith you know well?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Never said it was. I said Christianity has its roots in Judaism--and it does.



Once again, you have Paul all wrong. You know so little about him that you do not even know that he never--not once--mentioned Mary or Jesus' birth.

[Pick and choose whatever you wish to believe in and keep believing it. It will not change a thing as to who founded Christianity and why, and the consequences of it.]


Some argue that since what may be arguably the greatest evangelist and apologist of the Christian faith didn’t write about the virgin birth of Jesus that either he did not believe it or that he did not know about it. And that he was so knowledgeable it’s highly improbable that the latter is true. So, did Paul just not believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, conceived Him as a virgin?

One thing we must remember is that just because he didn’t mention it doesn’t mean that he didn’t believe it. That’s like the common argument that since Scripture doesnt speak of Jesus preaching against x, then He must not have considered x a sin. But the Bible says that “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” So just because we don’t know something didn’t happen doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Likewise, just because Paul didn’t mention something doesn’t mean that he didn’t believe or that it’s not true.

It’s, in fact, more possible that Paul did know and believe in the virgin birth. The physician, known as Luke, was a companion of Paul during Paul’s second and third missionary journeys. Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke and The Acts of the Apostles, speaks of being there with Paul when meeting with the Jerusalem church in Acts 21. And while Paul wrote 13 books of the New Testament (14 according to some scholars), Luke’s two books contain more volume than Paul’s.

The reason I mention Luke is because he wrote about the virgin birth. The Gospel of Luke, chapter 1, verses 26-34 reads, “Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”

Here we see that Luke clearly was aware of the virgin birth. Since we know that Luke and Paul were companions for quite a while, I believe it is safe to conclude that Paul also knew of the virgin birth. Also, Paul was no stranger to airing out his disagreements as he did in Galatians 2 about Peter. Luke also writes of Paul’s disagreement with Barnabas in Acts chapter 15. Therefore, I think it would be safe to assume that Paul or Luke would have written about a disagreement on the virgin conception of Jesus.

I also believe that Paul, in a roundabout way did mention the virgin birth. In the epistle to the Romans, Paul says, “Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures…” Paul, an educated man, knew the Hebrew scriptures, what we call the Old Testament. Paul calls himself a Pharisee in Acts 23:6 and Philippians 3:4-5. It was required of Pharisees to know the Hebrew Scriptures inside and out. Therefore, he knew the Old Testament book of the prophet Isaiah in which the virgin birth was first prophesied. Paul quoted Isaiah dozens of times in his writings so it wouldn’t be unwise to conclude that Paul also believed in that Jesus was conceived without an earthly father.

Therefore, by Paul being a friend of Luke and knowing the prophetic book of Isaiah, I would argue that Paul indeed believed in the virgin birth of Jesus. We need to be careful about not using the logical fallacy of arguing from absence (argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Paul and the Virgin Birth

Paul the Apostle in Prison “If the virgin birth is so important to Christians then why did the Apostle Paul not mention it any of his epistles?” The New Testament is comprised of 27 boo…

theologetics.org

 

[Meriweather]

You seriously do not care, which is understandable.

Believe what you will. It will not change what actually was.

What I don't care to do is unravel all your misconceptions. I understand Judaism better than you understand Christianity. What a mess you have made of it.

 

[Sixties Fan]

No, he did not write 'all' the letters.

Paul did teach about Jesus, crucified; the resurrection; and salvation.

Paul did not teach in Jerusalem. The first Christians were from there before Paul ever believed in Christ. He was the latecomer.

The Apostles were Jews. They never called themselves Christians or joined Christianity in any way, shape or form. They were actually against what Paul was doing, which was totally against Judaism's beliefs. Jews do not go around converting others to their beliefs. Paul did not care about that .

 

[Sixties Fan]

What I don't care to do is unravel all your misconceptions. I understand Judaism better than you understand Christianity. What a mess you have made of it.

What a joke you are to say that I do not understand Judaism and much less Christianity.

BELIEVE what you want, stop making believe that you actually know something beyond what you have fully believed in most of your life and are beyond learning anything else.

 

[Meriweather]

[Pick and choose whatever you wish to believe in and keep believing it. It will not change a thing as to who founded Christianity and why, and the consequences of it.]

You really do pluck things out of the blue, don't you. You have demonstrated no knowledge of Christianity....which may be why you think it is all about Paul.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You really do pluck things out of the blue, don't you. You have demonstrated no knowledge of Christianity....which may be why you think it is all about Paul.

Stay ignorant. It is what any religious Christian has said.

You do not want to know. That is beyond clear.

You do not know or care to know why Christians love to attack Jews, that is on you. I gave you all the answers to start think about it. But, you never will.

What would happen if it is true? Have an existential meltdown?


You will never think beyond what you know. Ever.

 

[Meriweather]

They were actually against what Paul was doing,

Read more.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Read more.

You have read nothing. You do not want to. You never will.

Reading what goes against your deep beliefs hurts your mind, as it has others. You are going to avoid it with all your might.

Have a nice day at Church tomorrow.

 

[Meriweather]

Stay ignorant.

You should have given me that advice fifty years ago.

It is what any religious Christian has said.

You do not want to know. That is beyond clear.

You do not know or care to know why Christians love to attack Jews, that is on you. I gave you all the answers to start think about it. But, you never will.

What would happen if it is true? Have an existential meltdown?


You will never think beyond what you know. Ever.

You do not know you advertise how little you know with all your posts. I've long since studied all of the above and in great more detail than I know you have--or at least that you have shown you have. You have much to learn, Grasshopper.

 

[Meriweather]

Have a nice day at Church tomorrow.

You mean tonight.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I was talking about Paul of Tarsus. The one who did invent Christianity by saying that he was one of the apostles, etc, etc.

There would not be Christianity without him being upset with Judaism for not getting what he wanted out of it.

There would not be attacks on Jews based on all of the lies he told to his followers in order to start a Jesus, actually Paul, following.

All the apostles preached the same thing. He was accepted by the church of God and it's apostles. You're a fool

 

[GMCGeneral]

Here's the thing. Yeshua can claim the title of Messiah because He IS the Sovereign G-d of Creation YHWH Himself, literally in the flesh. And made that claim stick with His bodily resurrection. Anyone who denies this is basically a Saducee.

 

[Ria_Longhorn]

Was Superman, like Jesus, Jewish?

"Superman’s possible Judaism shouldn’t be a surprise. The hero’s creators, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, were the children of Jewish immigrants. The comic book industry, where they spent a significant portion of their young careers, was created in New York by Jews like Max Ginsburg, Bob Kahn, and Jacob Kurtzberg, who hid their ethnicity behind names like Gaines, Kane, and Kirby. Over the years there have been scores of books and articles on the subject with punny names like Up, Up, and Oy Vey or "Mensch of Steel."

Why did Superman have to hide his identity . . . perhaps, for the reason that Ginsburg, Khan, and Kurtzberg had to?

Superman Is Jewish: The Hebrew Roots of America’s Greatest Superhero

Superman is America in that he was created by hard-working, exploited immigrants. An examination of the Jewish roots of the Man of Steel.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Hector12]

Lisa: Very few Jews, relatively, covert to Christianity. Even that fake “Jews for Jewish” group failed miserably in trying to get Jews to abandon their religion.

In a Jewish book store near to where I grew up I saw a book of famous Jews. One of them was Woody Allen. Woody Allen is an atheist whose movies celebrate promiscuity and sometimes wink at pedophilia. Nevertheless, most Jews consider Woody Allen to be one of them.

So why are Messianic Jews not considered to be authentically Jewish? Messianic Jews practice Judaism and recognize Jesus as the Messiah. All or most of the New Testament was written by people we would recognize as Messianic Jews.

I can understand why many Jews feel hostilely toward Messianic Jews. In the past Christians persecuted Jews and sometimes used force to try to convert them.

Nevertheless, Jews who feel hostilely toward Christians have been reading too many history books, and not enough newspapers. Today Christian antisemitism have virtually ceased to exist. In the United States Evangelical Christians are staunch supporters of Israel. Support for Israel easily segues to affection and respect for Jews. Once on his "Old Time Gospel Hour" Jerry Falwell described said of Jews "They are God's people."

I am a Christian who admires Jews, respects Judaism, and loves Israel. I consider Messianic Judaism to be an authentic Jewish sect. Christianity began as a Jewish sect. The first leader of Christianity after the Crucifixion was Saint James, who was Jesus' next oldest brother.

Saint James obeyed Torah and worshiped at the Temple of Jerusalem every day. Pharisees respected his Jewish piety and tried to save his life when Sadducees plotted to kill him. Unfortunately the Sadducees succeeded.

When a Jew and a Christian get married they often decide to compromise on religion. Too frequently the compromise is that they practice neither religion. I think Messianic Judaism would be a better compromise.

 

[Hector12]

As has already been said, for Talmudic Jews (and they are the vast majority), the basic teaching is the Talmud, which is above the Torah and the Tanakh (Old Testament),

The Talmud includes commentary on the Hebrew Bible (AKA, the Christian Old Testament). In no way to Jews consider the Talmud to be more authoritative than the Jewish Bible.

 

[Lisa558]

In a Jewish book store near to where I grew up I saw a book of famous Jews. One of them was Woody Allen. Woody Allen is an atheist whose movies celebrate promiscuity and sometimes wink at pedophilia. Nevertheless, most Jews consider Woody Allen to be one of them.

So why are Messianic Jews not considered to be authentically Jewish? Messianic Jews practice Judaism and recognize Jesus as the Messiah. All or most of the New Testament was written by people we would recognize as Messianic Jews.

I can understand why many Jews feel hostilely toward Messianic Jews. In the past Christians persecuted Jews and sometimes used force to try to convert them.

Nevertheless, Jews who feel hostilely toward Christians have been reading too many history books, and not enough newspapers. Today Christian antisemitism have virtually ceased to exist. In the United States Evangelical Christians are staunch supporters of Israel. Support for Israel easily segues to affection and respect for Jews. Once on his "Old Time Gospel Hour" Jerry Falwell described said of Jews "They are God's people."

I am a Christian who admires Jews, respects Judaism, and loves Israel. I consider Messianic Judaism to be an authentic Jewish sect. Christianity began as a Jewish sect. The first leader of Christianity after the Crucifixion was Saint James, who was Jesus' next oldest brother.

Saint James obeyed Torah and worshiped at the Temple of Jerusalem every day. Pharisees respected his Jewish piety and tried to save his life when Sadducees plotted to kill him. Unfortunately the Sadducees succeeded.

When a Jew and a Christian get married they often decide to compromise on religion. Too frequently the compromise is that they practice neither religion. I think Messianic Judaism would be a better compromise.

If you want to be technical, any person born of a Jewish mother is Jewish. But if a Jew believes that a mortal man was a deity, he is running counter to the very tenet of Judaism - that there is one and only G-d - and he is therefore not a practicing Jew.

The reason I feel hostility toward Jews for Jesus is that they are very sneaky in their approach in an attempt to “reel one in.” They befriend practicing Jews under false pretenses. I myself was lassoed by one of them. It was only when the “concert” the guy invited me to descended into songs of “Yeshua, Yeshua,” that I realized I had been roped in to some surreal Jews for Jesus event.

One simply deceives himself by believing that Jesus was the Messiah while simultaneously convincing himself he is a practicing Jew.

Rather than muddy the waters with false Jews who believe in Jesus, I would prefer they just go ahead and convert to Christianity.

 

[Zincwarrior]

And THANK you Baron for your very Judeophobic, Jew hating, Antisemitic rant .


Jews are wrong. Christians are right.

Convert or die.


We got it.


Christians have been killing Jews, just because they are Jews, since the greatest lie about Jews was ever told in the 1st Century CE.


Keep it up, Baron. Be the Jew hater your mind cannot stop being.


Let us have MORE Jews attacked and killed.

He is a Russobot.

 

[Hector12]

If you want to be technical, any person born of a Jewish mother is Jewish. But if a Jew believes that a mortal man was a deity, he is running counter to the very tenet of Judaism - that there is one and only G-d - and he is therefore not a practicing Jew.

The reason I feel hostility toward Jews for Jesus is that they are very sneaky in their approach in an attempt to “reel one in.” They befriend practicing Jews under false pretenses. I myself was lassoed by one of them. It was only when the “concert” the guy invited me to descended into songs of “Yeshua, Yeshua,” that I realized I had been roped in to some surreal Jews for Jesus event.

One simply deceives himself by believing that Jesus was the Messiah while simultaneously convincing himself he is a practicing Jew.

Rather than muddy the waters with false Jews who believe in Jesus, I would prefer they just go ahead and convert to Christianity.

I respectfully disagree.