In theory you are right, in practice I'm not so sure. I can buy a cellphone made anywhere in the world but I need my doctor to be local. How many companies offer a single insurance provider? Those companies are just as concerned with the cost as the quality is not more so. The gov't operates by a set of pre-determined rules so that bureaucrat only has to decide which situation is covered by which rule. There is no incentive to try and skimp on the care. The insurance bureaucrat may a bonus determined by how much care they don't provide. They often leave it to the consumer to fight for their rights.
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CDZ Why I support Universal healthcare, and why I don't.
- Thread starter iamwhatiseem
- Start date
progressive hunter
Diamond Member
- Dec 11, 2018
- 61,588
- 37,592
- 2,615
In theory you are right, in practice I'm not so sure. I can buy a cellphone made anywhere in the world but I need my doctor to be local. How many companies offer a single insurance provider? Those companies are just as concerned with the cost as the quality is not more so. The gov't operates by a set of pre-determined rules so that bureaucrat only has to decide which situation is covered by which rule. There is no incentive to try and skimp on the care. The insurance bureaucrat may a bonus determined by how much care they don't provide. They often leave it to the consumer to fight for their rights.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
Wrong.....the private healthcare companies have to attract customers, so they have to respond to customer needs, just like the people who make your cellphone and television......the government bureaucrat has no obligation and no risk when they make their decisions.........big difference.
No, I think it is the elected officials that have messed it all up. They get $ from big pharma and insurance companies protect them from competition. Other countries have gov't health care that is cheaper and better than ours. We also have the VA which does a very adequate job when compared to private ins.the unelected government bureaucrats have never been answerable to the people and the government is why theres no competition in HC,,If you don't want a bureaucrat making your health care decisions then you might want to avoid corporations and let people who are, at least in theory, answerable to the people and not the stockholders.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
I am not comfortable having some low IQ non caring career bureaucrat, whose boss is a corrupt politician elected by special interest groups, making decisions for me as important as health care.
I get quality products at a reasonable price created by corporations looking to make a profit all the time. In fact that is what makes our economy run. Health care is no different.
This bit about wanting the filthy government to take over health has nothing to do with cost or quality. It is greedy welfare queens wanting to get somebody else to be responsible for paying their bills.
It doesn't stop with health care. The Moon Bats want everything to be paid for by other people. Hell, now the greedy bastards are demanding that somebody else pick up the bill for their worthless degree college debt. They think they are somehow entitled to it although it didn't provide them with the skills necessary to pay back the debt. China Joe and the Ho ran on a platform to do just that.
Socialism is a serious mental illness and when a good portion of a country's population gets it then the country is usually destroyed.
Capitalist health care is great if there is competition. Even in cities there are limited options for emergency or hospital care, outside cites you take what you get.
Our system is terrible, we have the highest cost for only a middling return. Other countries are much healthier and happier with their health care.
so that proves government is why our HC is such an expensive system,,
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.In theory you are right, in practice I'm not so sure. I can buy a cellphone made anywhere in the world but I need my doctor to be local. How many companies offer a single insurance provider? Those companies are just as concerned with the cost as the quality is not more so. The gov't operates by a set of pre-determined rules so that bureaucrat only has to decide which situation is covered by which rule. There is no incentive to try and skimp on the care. The insurance bureaucrat may a bonus determined by how much care they don't provide. They often leave it to the consumer to fight for their rights.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
Wrong.....the private healthcare companies have to attract customers, so they have to respond to customer needs, just like the people who make your cellphone and television......the government bureaucrat has no obligation and no risk when they make their decisions.........big difference.
Isn't that what we all want?
thats funny cause I hear in canada it takes months for simple surgeries and you also have a high tax rate,, not to mention the government decides if you get it or not,,,
Our wait times for non-critical surgeries are longer than yours in some cases, but you too have wait times. Big business is anxious to process Americans through the hospitals as quickly as possible.
That is a factor that derates Canada's health care system down to being one of the lower countries on the universal health care ladder. But still rated higher than the US system by far. We need to get into factors that go into making the comparisons, and we can eventually do that if you continue to show some interest.
I called yesterday to get surgery on my thumb and I go next week,, can you say the same??
It would depend on the surgery required and also on the region in Canada that is applicable. In general, more than one week though, unless the surgery is needed immediately because of inverse effects that call for immediate attention. And so if such urgency exists with a thumb, in many cases a Canadian could get attention overnight.
Did you know that nearly 2 1/2 times more Americans than Canadians leave their country for medical attention? (per capita adjusted of course)
If you are interested in learning, by all means stay the course. If you have a chip on your shoulder, you should leave now because it's not going to go well for you here, talking to a Canadian.
progressive hunter
Diamond Member
- Dec 11, 2018
- 61,588
- 37,592
- 2,615
sure they messed it up,, and thats the point they will never fix it by adding to it,,No, I think it is the elected officials that have messed it all up. They get $ from big pharma and insurance companies protect them from competition. Other countries have gov't health care that is cheaper and better than ours. We also have the VA which does a very adequate job when compared to private ins.the unelected government bureaucrats have never been answerable to the people and the government is why theres no competition in HC,,If you don't want a bureaucrat making your health care decisions then you might want to avoid corporations and let people who are, at least in theory, answerable to the people and not the stockholders.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
I am not comfortable having some low IQ non caring career bureaucrat, whose boss is a corrupt politician elected by special interest groups, making decisions for me as important as health care.
I get quality products at a reasonable price created by corporations looking to make a profit all the time. In fact that is what makes our economy run. Health care is no different.
This bit about wanting the filthy government to take over health has nothing to do with cost or quality. It is greedy welfare queens wanting to get somebody else to be responsible for paying their bills.
It doesn't stop with health care. The Moon Bats want everything to be paid for by other people. Hell, now the greedy bastards are demanding that somebody else pick up the bill for their worthless degree college debt. They think they are somehow entitled to it although it didn't provide them with the skills necessary to pay back the debt. China Joe and the Ho ran on a platform to do just that.
Socialism is a serious mental illness and when a good portion of a country's population gets it then the country is usually destroyed.
Capitalist health care is great if there is competition. Even in cities there are limited options for emergency or hospital care, outside cites you take what you get.
Our system is terrible, we have the highest cost for only a middling return. Other countries are much healthier and happier with their health care.
so that proves government is why our HC is such an expensive system,,
the ponly way they can fix it is to get out of the healthcare business,,
but unelected bureaucrats are the ones running it,,
progressive hunter
Diamond Member
- Dec 11, 2018
- 61,588
- 37,592
- 2,615
not when unelected bureacrats decide who lives or dies,,Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.In theory you are right, in practice I'm not so sure. I can buy a cellphone made anywhere in the world but I need my doctor to be local. How many companies offer a single insurance provider? Those companies are just as concerned with the cost as the quality is not more so. The gov't operates by a set of pre-determined rules so that bureaucrat only has to decide which situation is covered by which rule. There is no incentive to try and skimp on the care. The insurance bureaucrat may a bonus determined by how much care they don't provide. They often leave it to the consumer to fight for their rights.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
Wrong.....the private healthcare companies have to attract customers, so they have to respond to customer needs, just like the people who make your cellphone and television......the government bureaucrat has no obligation and no risk when they make their decisions.........big difference.
Isn't that what we all want?
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,044
- 52,328
- 2,290
In theory you are right, in practice I'm not so sure. I can buy a cellphone made anywhere in the world but I need my doctor to be local. How many companies offer a single insurance provider? Those companies are just as concerned with the cost as the quality is not more so. The gov't operates by a set of pre-determined rules so that bureaucrat only has to decide which situation is covered by which rule. There is no incentive to try and skimp on the care. The insurance bureaucrat may a bonus determined by how much care they don't provide. They often leave it to the consumer to fight for their rights.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
Wrong.....the private healthcare companies have to attract customers, so they have to respond to customer needs, just like the people who make your cellphone and television......the government bureaucrat has no obligation and no risk when they make their decisions.........big difference.
There is every incentive to skimp on care....just look at all the systems around the world.
What we need is more competition, not a government monopoly. Competition increases quality, access and lowers cost...
]
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.
Isn't that what we all want?
Mentioning the ACA just introduces rabid racism into the topic. You're quite right on most of what you're saying but stirring up racists isn't helpful.
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,044
- 52,328
- 2,290
]
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.
Isn't that what we all want?
Mentioning the ACA just introduces rabid racism into the topic. You're quite right on most of what you're saying but stirring up racists isn't helpful.
You are the one bringing race into the discussion.
progressive hunter
Diamond Member
- Dec 11, 2018
- 61,588
- 37,592
- 2,615
whats racist about it??]
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.
Isn't that what we all want?
Mentioning the ACA just introduces rabid racism into the topic. You're quite right on most of what you're saying but stirring up racists isn't helpful.
It cost a lot of money to keep someone alive. No question it’s better for Medicare and hospice when someone dies In a day or two Rather than three weeks. They don’t want you to live past 30 days. It’s funny we all wish they would give us a pill that puts us to sleep and we don’t wake up, but we won’t give the pill to our loveone who’s dying. We hold on as long as we can.Hospice in home.Cheapness. We went through it with my mom. Is it worse when the person is put into hospice? It shouldn’t be. If you have to give up Medicare to get hospice, that shouldn’t be a downgrade it should be an upgrade. And give them enough morphine that it will kill them. Stop the needless sufferingMedicare is God awful.Universal coverage can also include public/private partnerships, such as our current Medicare / Medicare Supplement / Medicare Advantage program, which could be tweaked to work for all Americans. It would also be individual and portable, include dynamic choice, free market competition and innovation, and take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American employers.
Right now, we have SIX (6) different healthcare delivery/payment systems, none of which communicates directly with the others:
I wonder how many people really think that's a smart "system".
- Medicare
- Medicaid
- VA
- Group
- Individual
- Indigent
When my father passed away with brain cancer 3 years ago this month.... I truly got a glimpse at just how bad medicare is.
At one point, and more than once... he was lying in the emergency room in extreme pain but not getting medication because of Medicare's archaic and unmerciful policies between Medicare and Hospice care. It is a fucking, vile evil set up.
I hope you and yours do not have to experience it.
And then after my father passed away, it left his wife... my mother... buried in red tape that you need a lawyer to figure out.
It is impersonal, uncaring and without care about what people are going through.
It shouldn't be called Medicare... it should be called Medifuckyou if you get terminally ill
What was Medicare's archaic and unmerciful policies that prevented him from receiving meds for pain?
Most of the time a person who is admitted to hospice you have to give up all other meds except for pain relief. His post wasn't clear he mentioned ER and hospice. So ER denied relief or hospice? IV morphine is not that expensive but then again Medicare approved cost is much lower than what a hospital or hospice would charge. Was it a hospice facility or hospice in home?
You are correct, when you sign on to receive hospice care, which is wonderful, you are prohibited to receive any sort of life sustaining care. Which on the surface sounds okay. But in many cases, "comfort care" and sustaining care cross paths. Like I said, he would get dehydrated which can and does cause all manner of painful and uncomfortable symptoms. It is absurd that they won't even allow simple IV meds, that are not expensive and work very quickly.
He got sick in late October, and died in January. But got bad-bad in December.
My father died eventually of starvation. Which is what kills a great many people in hospice care. Dad lost the ability to swallow, but was still fairly conscious and aware. I want everyone to think about that. He knew what was going on. He knew he was wasting away. He knew he was going to die, not from the illness, but from the inability to simply receive intravenous vitamins/glucose etc. so he could at least die peacefully.
So we had to choose to kill him.
The day before we put him in the nursing home, he was sitting up and interacting with us. He could sort of speak, not because of mental decline, but because of his brain tumor. He was aware, smiled at us...and could kind of laugh at something funny....to what physical capacity he could still laugh. HE WAS CONCIOUS.
But he could not stay in the hospital. Because medicare won't pay for it.
So we sent him to a nursing home. They basically gave him enough morphine to shut everything down. He never regained consciousness and died in just over 24 hours. Where 24 hours before he was a living, conscious human being. Aware and interacting with his family. But medicare will not pay fot that. But they will gladly pay for the morphine to kill you.
They asked if we wanted to put my grandmother on a neck breather. They had to take the tube out of her throat. Do we want to have the machine breath for her via the neck and she’ll live for months maybe a year that way? Fuck no. Take the tube out. If she can’t breath on her own she’ll die. Ok fine. She wouldn’t want to be bed ridden with a breathing machine hooked up to her neck.
[QUOTE="2aguy, post: 26236989, member: 50072"
There is every incentive to skimp on care....just look at all the systems around the world.
What we need is more competition, not a government monopoly. Competition increases quality, access and lowers cost...
[/QUOTE]
The free market capitalist system should work.
BUT IT HASN'T WORKED IN AMERICA!
Keep on trying and maybe Trump will magically reappear out of the clouds in 2024. Sent by baby jesus maybe??
If you want to stop feeling bad, get the chip off your shoulder and then follow along with your finger as you learn the truth from a commie. Right?
There is every incentive to skimp on care....just look at all the systems around the world.
What we need is more competition, not a government monopoly. Competition increases quality, access and lowers cost...
[/QUOTE]
The free market capitalist system should work.
BUT IT HASN'T WORKED IN AMERICA!
Keep on trying and maybe Trump will magically reappear out of the clouds in 2024. Sent by baby jesus maybe??
If you want to stop feeling bad, get the chip off your shoulder and then follow along with your finger as you learn the truth from a commie. Right?
progressive hunter
Diamond Member
- Dec 11, 2018
- 61,588
- 37,592
- 2,615
[QUOTE="2aguy, post: 26236989, member: 50072"
There is every incentive to skimp on care....just look at all the systems around the world.
What we need is more competition, not a government monopoly. Competition increases quality, access and lowers cost...
The free market capitalist system should work.
BUT IT HASN'T WORKED IN AMERICA!
Keep on trying and maybe Trump will magically reappear out of the clouds in 2024. Sent by baby jesus maybe??
If you want to stop feeling bad, get the chip off your shoulder and then follow along with your finger as you learn the truth from a commie. Right?
[/QUOTE]
free market and government ran capitalism are two different things,,
- Oct 31, 2012
- 54,991
- 54,501
- 3,605
And ONLY the health care in the US came up with a vaccine.In theory you are right, in practice I'm not so sure. I can buy a cellphone made anywhere in the world but I need my doctor to be local. How many companies offer a single insurance provider? Those companies are just as concerned with the cost as the quality is not more so. The gov't operates by a set of pre-determined rules so that bureaucrat only has to decide which situation is covered by which rule. There is no incentive to try and skimp on the care. The insurance bureaucrat may a bonus determined by how much care they don't provide. They often leave it to the consumer to fight for their rights.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
Wrong.....the private healthcare companies have to attract customers, so they have to respond to customer needs, just like the people who make your cellphone and television......the government bureaucrat has no obligation and no risk when they make their decisions.........big difference.
There is every incentive to skimp on care....just look at all the systems around the world.
What we need is more competition, not a government monopoly. Competition increases quality, access and lowers cost...
Very telling.
Competition is great but tricky in this instance. Do you have extra hospital beds over what is needed so people can choose, at least for non-emergency procedures? Do you allow a drug company to charge whatever they can for a critical medicine? Look at the recent insulin debacle. Who sets prices? Doctors, hospitals, insurance companies? Will people in rural areas pay more since there may be fewer doctors and hospitals?What we need is more competition, not a government monopoly. Competition increases quality, access and lowers cost...
While I like the free market, it is not always the best choice.
Who elected those insurance company bureaucrats?not when unelected bureacrats decide who lives or dies,,Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.
Isn't that what we all want?
progressive hunter
Diamond Member
- Dec 11, 2018
- 61,588
- 37,592
- 2,615
thats a stupid question,,,Who elected those insurance company bureaucrats?not when unelected bureacrats decide who lives or dies,,Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.
Isn't that what we all want?
we chose to do business with them,, not forced to at the point of a gun,,,
We probably threw the most money at our drug companies. I'll give Trump credit for that.And ONLY the health care in the US came up with a vaccine.In theory you are right, in practice I'm not so sure. I can buy a cellphone made anywhere in the world but I need my doctor to be local. How many companies offer a single insurance provider? Those companies are just as concerned with the cost as the quality is not more so. The gov't operates by a set of pre-determined rules so that bureaucrat only has to decide which situation is covered by which rule. There is no incentive to try and skimp on the care. The insurance bureaucrat may a bonus determined by how much care they don't provide. They often leave it to the consumer to fight for their rights.Surveys of Vets have shown that they think as highly of their VA care as people who use private insurance. You may think it is good to have a large, for-profit corporation making your health care decisions for you, essentially death, panels based, at least in part, on their bottom line but I'm not real comfortable with it.The various scandals I have witnessed at the government run VA is enough for me to oppose UHC.
No where to run and no one to run to for help when health care screws you over,...…………………... not if, WHEN!
Wrong.....the private healthcare companies have to attract customers, so they have to respond to customer needs, just like the people who make your cellphone and television......the government bureaucrat has no obligation and no risk when they make their decisions.........big difference.
There is every incentive to skimp on care....just look at all the systems around the world.
What we need is more competition, not a government monopoly. Competition increases quality, access and lowers cost...
Very telling.
They are often the only game in town since most of us get health insurance through our employer.thats a stupid question,,,Who elected those insurance company bureaucrats?not when unelected bureacrats decide who lives or dies,,Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which was to have the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.
Isn't that what we all want?
we chose to do business with them,, not forced to at the point of a gun,,,
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