Why I Don't Believe

[alang1216]

The simple message of the cross of Christ.
18 I know very well how foolish it sounds to those who are lost, when they hear that Jesus died to save them. But we who are saved* recognize this message as the very power of God. 19 For God says, “I will destroy all human plans of salvation no matter how wise they seem to be, and ignore the best ideas of men, even the most brilliant of them.” 1 Corinthians 1:17-19

I see the mixed message as:

Jesus didn't die, he's eternal. He didn't die for our sins. He defined what is a sin and created man such that no one can pass the test. No one knows if they are truly saved or not. They hope their version of God's words is the correct one but by the time they know for sure it is too late to do anything about it. God doesn't care what we know, think, or do. If they guess the right set of scripture they win eternal rewards, if they are ignorant, guess wrong, honor what their father tells them (if their father is wrong), they are tortured for eternity. Oh and God loves them.

 

[alang1216]

our purpose in this life is to seek and find truth=GOD, ARE YOU EVEN LOOKING?

I definitely consider myself a seeker of truth. Your equation that that equals God appears unsupported by the evidence I see. I'm sure if I looked for God I'd find him. I'm equally sure that if I looked for ghosts, aliens, conspiracies, or Elvis I'd find them too. I think that says more about people than it does about God.

 

[hobelim]

our purpose in this life is to seek and find truth=GOD, ARE YOU EVEN LOOKING?

I definitely consider myself a seeker of truth. Your equation that that equals God appears unsupported by the evidence I see. I'm sure if I looked for God I'd find him. I'm equally sure that if I looked for ghosts, aliens, conspiracies, or Elvis I'd find them too. I think that says more about people than it does about God.

Congratulations!

you have just been punked by GISMO

 

[PostmodernProph]

You've obviously discussed virgin biths but if I recall my Greek and Roman mythology correctly, the gods were constantly impregnating mortals who would then give birth to a hero or demi-god. Heracles/Hercules was the son of Zeus and a mortal I believe. Sounds a lot like the story of Jesus to me.

really?.....parallel to the synoptic gospels in your recollection?.....

A mortal woman give birth to a child that doesn't have a mortal father. Yes I see an obvious parallel.

right.....and YHWH the unfaithful husband had sex with her a number of times and she eventually became pregnant?....would that be verse 2?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

The simple message of the cross of Christ.
18 I know very well how foolish it sounds to those who are lost, when they hear that Jesus died to save them. But we who are saved* recognize this message as the very power of God. 19 For God says, “I will destroy all human plans of salvation no matter how wise they seem to be, and ignore the best ideas of men, even the most brilliant of them.” 1 Corinthians 1:17-19

I see the mixed message as:

Jesus didn't die, he's eternal. He didn't die for our sins. He defined what is a sin and created man such that no one can pass the test. No one knows if they are truly saved or not. They hope their version of God's words is the correct one but by the time they know for sure it is too late to do anything about it. God doesn't care what we know, think, or do. If they guess the right set of scripture they win eternal rewards, if they are ignorant, guess wrong, honor what their father tells them (if their father is wrong), they are tortured for eternity. Oh and God loves them.

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

 

[alang1216]

right.....and YHWH the unfaithful husband had sex with her a number of times and she eventually became pregnant?....would that be verse 2?.....

Not sure what you're saying here???

You can look at two stories and see only the differences or you can look at two stories and see only the parallels. Or you can be intellectually honest and see both.

 

[alang1216]

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

 

[Genevieve]

We are spiritual beings. Souls. And for a period of time we inhabit an earthly body. We live on this planet, Earth, where humans have made up religions each meant to shame or guilt people into obeying the rules that humans have made up. These religions are pitted against each other and have, through the ages, added more and more rules of behavior and of accepting or not accepting other religions. Guilt and shame are great for crowd control.

You view religion through the perspective of Christianity. Judaism and pagan religions were all about getting rewards in this life. You wanted God/gods to like you and bring you good health, prosperity, sons, victory in war, etc. The genius of Christianity was eliminating the link between God/gods and gifts in this life. Christians get their rewards in the next life, not this one. If your sacrifice to a pagan god for a son was not granted or if your city god failed to defend your city from invaders it was obvious. A great crisis in Judaism came when Jews were conquered by foreigners. How could God let that happen to his people? If your rewards were not given until after you die how do you know if your God is real? You got to have faith.

Our Souls, though, are here to learn, to experience, to mature. When we die, whether we belong to a religion or not, whether we have been "good" or "bad", whether we believe or do not believe......... Soul escapes the body that is now dead and goes to a place of love and acceptance to be cleansed of the pains of earthly dwelling. In that place Soul goes over the life that has just ended, learns from its mistakes and its achievements and grows. If the body/person where Soul was dwelling did terrible things during its life, the soul is separated from other souls to recuperate.

This is what you wish life to be and that is fine for you. I can't believe in this "soul" mysticism without some kind of evidence. Your beliefs are no better or worse than anyone elses beliefs. The evidence points to us being expendable vessels for our genes and everything we do are meant to ensure their survival.

Nowhere did I say that my belief is the "only" belief.
Nowhere did I invite you to believe what I believe.
I offered a fourth possibility in addition to what was posted.

You read some things into my post that weren't there.

 

[PostmodernProph]

right.....and YHWH the unfaithful husband had sex with her a number of times and she eventually became pregnant?....would that be verse 2?.....

Not sure what you're saying here???

You can look at two stories and see only the differences or you can look at two stories and see only the parallels. Or you can be intellectually honest and see both.

sorry.....not seeing virgin birth parallels at all.....immortal father parallels?....Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh......Hercules as an incarnation of Zeus?....not so much.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......and saying they believe the exact opposite of what they believe makes a shitty argument.....

 

[alang1216]

Nowhere did I say that my belief is the "only" belief.
Nowhere did I invite you to believe what I believe.
I offered a fourth possibility in addition to what was posted.

You read some things into my post that weren't there.

No need to be defensive, I was only trying to say why I didn't include your fourth possibility.

 

[alang1216]

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......and saying they believe the exact opposite of what they believe makes a shitty argument.....

My post was really saying what the Paul left out. For example, Paul said Jesus died but the opposite is also true, Jesus didn't die, he's eternal.

 

[alang1216]

sorry.....not seeing virgin birth parallels at all.....immortal father parallels?....Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh......Hercules as an incarnation of Zeus?....not so much.....

We see what we want to see and don't see what we don't want to see. Human nature.

 

[PostmodernProph]

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......and saying they believe the exact opposite of what they believe makes a shitty argument.....

My post was really saying what the Paul left out. For example, Paul said Jesus died but the opposite is also true, Jesus didn't die, he's eternal.

incorrect.....he died, he rose again......that is the opposite of "he didn't die"......

 

[sealybobo]

spider man is fictional. He also didn't create everything

No strictly true, Spiderman has created work and wealth for many people!
An imaginary character earning dollars for those who spread his word, rather like those millionaire evangelists!

Boss would say one person came up with Spider Man but every tribe in human history has always believed in god(s) so that's the difference between spider man and god.

Do you believe that proves god exists? Just because every society on the planet believes in god(s)? I don't. I think the human mind being superstitious, curious and having a healthy fear of the unknown is why we came up with god(s).

But you are right. Just because we came up with god(s) doesn't mean he/they are real, just like Spidy isn't real just because someone came up with the character.

 

[alang1216]

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......and saying they believe the exact opposite of what they believe makes a shitty argument.....

My post was really saying what the Paul left out. For example, Paul said Jesus died but the opposite is also true, Jesus didn't die, he's eternal.

incorrect.....he died, he rose again......that is the opposite of "he didn't die"......

Semantics. If he is not dead he didn't die. To me death is the end, finito. If Jesus existed before he lived and he existed after he "died" he is immortal and both life and death are meaningless terms to an immortal. To say he died is like me saying I changed my clothes because my wife didn't like my shirt. A nice gesture but pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things.

 

[amrchaos]

why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them?

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

I think you missed the part where he said
"ONE religion is true and the rest were false."

So, if we consider the fact that there are numerous other religions, and the people in those religion are just as you and I, why would god let them grow up learning that false religion and then judge them.

And by the way, he does not finish that argument--it is intuitively implied that god would not do that.

Your argument suggest that God looked at the human condition, seen all these lies floating around and the people believing them and said "My truth is so obvious, only the fools are being misled! There is nothing I need to do"

That sounds a bit like an indifferent God.

 

[PostmodernProph]

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......

that would, of course, be the exact opposite of what Christian texts state.....

Of course.

exact opposites make shitty parallels......and saying they believe the exact opposite of what they believe makes a shitty argument.....

My post was really saying what the Paul left out. For example, Paul said Jesus died but the opposite is also true, Jesus didn't die, he's eternal.

incorrect.....he died, he rose again......that is the opposite of "he didn't die"......

To me death is the end, finito.

/shrugs.....should we care?......

 

[PostmodernProph]

why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them?

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

And by the way, he does not finish that argument--it is intuitively implied that god would not do that.

the next time you see him, ask if your intuition was on the mark.....

 

[amrchaos]

spider man is fictional. He also didn't create everything

No strictly true, Spiderman has created work and wealth for many people!
An imaginary character earning dollars for those who spread his word, rather like those millionaire evangelists!

Boss would say one person came up with Spider Man but every tribe in human history has always believed in god(s) so that's the difference between spider man and god.

Do you believe that proves god exists? Just because every society on the planet believes in god(s)? I don't. I think the human mind being superstitious, curious and having a healthy fear of the unknown is why we came up with god(s).

But you are right. Just because we came up with god(s) doesn't mean he/they are real, just like Spidy isn't real just because someone came up with the character.

Let us not forget the more important question: Did they come up with the same God?

That answer is no. In fact, in what one culture would call a god, another would call a king or ruler(Romans and Greeks had rulers proclaiming themselves Gods as well.) God is not defined the same everywhere, which is a problem with that argument.

In fact, the fallacy of the argument is equivocation. Every god has to be defined as the same in order for it to be true. The Jewish definition of God do not apply in most cultures.

Here is another way to use that argument. There are numerous Gods. That is why different cultures believe in different gods. It is also why polytheism is true and monotheism is false since it is obvious that there have to be more than one God in order to have enough gods for all these religions.

The fallacy here is assuming humans are infallible (really an appeal to a false authority but nicely cloaked). Even though we may believe and act as if something exists that does not mean it exist!!

A pretty example of humans believing and acting as if something exist but actually does not are little kids and Santa Claus. Kids are humans. Many have learned about Santa from a well trusted authority(their parents first of all), and there are even rituals and practices for kids surrounding Santa.

Yet, Santa Claus does not exist.

Note, we have numerous cases of people believing something exists and actually does. Like the Sun, Moon, raining days, people they love and talk to, etc , etc. But it is important to demonstrate a case where the object in question does not exist and we know it does not exist. There just not that many of those cases.