Zone1 Why Does God Even Hate Homosexuality?

[buttercup]

People are born with many defects. Both mentally and physically. I don't get why some refuse to consider this thinking it implies that gives them the right to act on those impulses. It DOESNT. We all have our crosses to carry in this life. Fighting our baser natures is what builds our character THAT is why accepting and giving into those things God says not to do, is so destructive to the soul

I absolutely agree with you. I was talking about what THEY would claim. The problem is when society claims that a defect or genetic propensity for a certain behavior is a natural genetic thing, like gender, etc. THEY don't think of it as a defect, so they don't think there's anything to fight. That's why if Christians go along with the worldly lie that all gays were born that way, then we're giving weight to their claim that it's a natural genetic thing, which (she can correct me if I'm wrong) seems to be Foxfyre's position.

 

[Meriweather]

believe as you do, i.e. that they chose that condition

A small correction. I do not believe they chose the condition. The choice is having the condition, how does one respond. A rough analogy: Chicken pox is a condition no one chooses. But if someone does get chicken pox are they going to give in and scratch. By the same token, do we condemn those with scars from chicken pox due to scratching?

 

[Blues Man]

What need to disapprove of their choices?

This what the entire thread is about.

The religious and their disdain for those who are different. The moral superiority of the intolerant if you will.

Life is short and if 2 people can find love and be happy more power to them

Who cares if 2 adults no matter their gender are in a loving caring relationship of their own free wills?

 

[Blues Man]

You may be right. I always joke about my 'list'. A list I want to be able to take to Heaven to get answers for all the many many questions I have no answer for.

And when we get there I fully expect all of us to be really surprised at how much of our beliefs we got wrong.

I judge what people do and say, sometimes harshly, when it is obvious they are doing harm. And I caution people to be careful that they know all the facts before they accuse or condemn another because of the potential harm they may do by accusing or condemning them.

But my gay friends harm nobody that I have ever witnessed. Most are devout Christians and/or accept and encourage others in their Christian faith. And as they have never blatantly lied to me about anything that I've been aware of, I believe them when they tell me they did not choose to be gay. And they accept and tolerate that others, especially fundamentalist Christians, believe as you do, i.e. that they chose that condition. They might roll their eyes a bit but they would not condemn you for your belief.

So sure you are that heaven is your destiny are you?

Seems to me the people who are convinced they are going to heaven are the last people who should go. IF any heaven exists that is.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

That's why if Christians go along with the worldly lie that all gays were born that way, then we're giving weight to their claim that it's a natural genetic thing, which (she can correct me if I'm wrong) seems to be Foxfyre's position.

The world is gonna do what they do. That's not going to make me play games with what I believe are the facts. Whether you believe SOME were born that way, or it is a learned behavior, if a person claims to be seeking Christ, fighting the pull of that sin is a requirement. Just like I can't give into the sexual pulls that tempt me, neither can they or anyone else. God doesn't expect flawed human beings to live perfect lives, but He does expect you to fight the good fight.

The Word of God is clear on this matter. Nobody said it was the easy path, but it is required.

 

[Meriweather]

This what the entire thread is about.

You claimed I disapproved of their choice. Where did I disapprove of their choice? (Because this thread has also been about approving choice.)

 

[Foxfyre]

A small correction. I do not believe they chose the condition. The choice is having the condition, how does one respond. A rough analogy: Chicken pox is a condition no one chooses. But if someone does get chicken pox are they going to give in and scratch. By the same token, do we condemn those with scars from chicken pox due to scratching?

I do believe homosexuality is deviance from 'normal' as there is no known gene pool for it. And because nobody I know wanted to be gay--they just are and have come to accept that about themselves--I think maybe at some future time we may actually figure out what causes it and prevent it.

I feel the same way about those born autistic or with Tourette Syndrome or other conditions over which they had no choice, no control. These are not illnesses that can be prevented with a vaccine or treated with antibiotics, etc. People born with them either accept their condition and learn how to live productively with it or remain excluded from society and get little pleasure from life.

Of course the people of the Bible had no way to know about genes or genetic deviations. They considered women in their menstrual cycles to be 'unclean', the mentally ill to be possessed by demons. And they had no way to know that homosexuality is by and large not a choice and declared it sinful.

So again I allow everyone their beliefs so long as they do not act on those beliefs in a way that hurts/harms others. And I won't condemn or even criticize somebody who believes differently than I do.

Except maybe when it comes to gross hypocrisy. I do tend to be pretty critical of that and find myself often asking for forgiveness for reacting badly to it.

 

[Foxfyre]

So sure you are that heaven is your destiny are you?

Seems to me the people who are convinced they are going to heaven are the last people who should go. IF any heaven exists that is.

How it is you are so sure of who will and will not be in Heaven? I have a relationship with a Savior who promises me eternal life. What do you have that makes you so certain?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

the mentally ill to be possessed by demons

I refuse to believe Jesus was "ignorant."

The problem in THIS day is that we ignore the SPIRITUAL component.

Jesus knew when a demon caused the person's problem. Today we reject this understanding

 

[Foxfyre]

^^^^People like this are ashamed of the Gospel, ashamed for calling out sin and proclaiming the truth! that a Holy G-d will NOT accept the unredeemed sinner into His presence, that only the shed blood of Christ will secure a soul's salvation for all who repent and believe.

Once more I refer those who are so sure they are more righteous than those they accuse to Matthew 23. I have no way of knowing, but just a gut feeling some need to read that Chapter again and again and again.

 

[Foxfyre]

I refuse to believe Jesus was "ignorant."

The problem in THIS day is that we ignore the SPIRITUAL component.

Jesus knew when a demon caused the person's problem. Today we reject this understanding

And yet nowhere in the Bible do we find any reference to mental illness other than those who were 'possessed by demons.' I believe Jesus had power to heal anybody of any condition. I believe He--more correctly those who represented Him in the scriptures--used language and metaphors that the people of that time had knowledge and experience to understand. To fully understand, we have to read the Scriptures through their eyes and not with how we interpret it with our own knowledge and experience.

Do I believe in demons? Yes I do. Do I believe Jesus had power to cast them out? Yes I do. Do I believe all mental illness comes from demons? No I do not.

 

[GMCGeneral]

Once more I refer those who are so sure they are more righteous than those they accuse to Matthew 23. I have no way of knowing, but just a gut feeling some need to read that Chapter again and again and again.

"Gut feelings" are not an accurate gauge. The only sure objective source is the Bible. As Christians, we are not to live our lives by our feelings, instead we are to allow the Word and the Holy Spirit control our hearts, minds and lives.

 

[Foxfyre]

"Gut feelings" are not an accurate gauge. The only sure objective source is the Bible. As Christians, we are not to live our lives by our feelings, instead we are to allow the Word and the Holy Spirit control our hearts, minds and lives.

I agree. And most of us fall way short of that standard. And we fall much further short of that standard when we are so sure we know what the Scriptures say and assume the other person does not.

 

[buttercup]

No. These laws deal with the topic of MEAT EATING, NOT PLANTS

Since God "allowed" imperfect people to do certain things in this imperfect world, He put these limits on WHICH animals HIS PEOPLE are permitted to eat.

Pork has many health problems for ALL Man, not just one race. No serious follower of Israels God is permitted to eat those things He said not to eat

Eating things like pork is one of those abominable practices the Catholic Church gave to the world

I know this is off topic, but I still wanted to reply. I understand that those laws had to do with meat eating, I didn't say anything about plants. ha. My point was that those laws were temporary, not eternal. (If they were eternal, then that would mean it is perfectly OK to eat certain animals for all of eternity and you and I both know that is not true.)

I had a feeling when I posted that that it likely would be misunderstood… because it kind of sounded like I was taking the mainstream Christian position that now because we're under a New Covenant, we can all eat whatever we want and God doesn't care, anything is on the menu! But as you know, that is absolutely not what I believe.

As you know, God doesn't change, his nature does not change, and God never wanted us to eat animals in the first place, and that desire for us to not exploit, harm and eat animals has never changed. But because of our hard hearts in this fallen world, God temporarily permits certain things, under certain restrictions or guidelines....things that are not what He wants. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that many of those dietary laws had more to do with cleanliness and health issues, as opposed to ethics. Certain animals are scavengers and not healthy for anyone to eat. So I do partially agree with you, on the point that the principles behind those laws are just as true today as ever… they are going by the wisdom of not eating things that cause us to be sick.

So maybe we disagree on whether or not those Mosaic laws are still in effect, but I don't need to believe that to be a Christian vegan, because I base my position on other things, as you know, like God's perfect will, as clearly stated in Genesis 1 and the prophetic scriptures... and of course, on the tons and tons of scriptures that command us to be merciful, to love others and do no harm to our neighbor, which includes the animals because God's love and mercy extends to animals, and they are indeed our neighbors.

 

[Meriweather]

I do believe homosexuality is deviance from 'normal' as there is no known gene pool for it. And because nobody I know wanted to be gay--they just are and have come to accept that about themselves--I think maybe at some future time we may actually figure out what causes it and prevent it.

Society's issue (both pro and con) with homosexuality may be how much choice is involved when acting upon homosexual tendencies.

 

[Foxfyre]

I know this is off topic, but I still wanted to reply. I understand that those laws had to do with meat eating, I didn't say anything about plants. ha. My point was that those laws were temporary, not eternal. (If they were eternal, then that would mean it is perfectly OK to eat certain animals for all of eternity and you and I both know that is not true.)

I had a feeling when I posted that that it likely would be misunderstood… because it kind of sounded like I was taking the mainstream Christian position that now because we're under a New Covenant, we can all eat whatever we want and God doesn't care, anything is on the menu! But as you know, that is absolutely not what I believe.

As you know, God doesn't change, his nature does not change, and I believe that God never wanted us to eat animals in the first place, and that desire for us to not exploit, harm and eat animals has never changed. But because of our hard hearts in this fallen world, God temporarily permits certain things, under certain restrictions or guidelines....things that are not what He wants. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that many of those dietary laws had more to do with cleanliness and health issues, as opposed to ethics. Certain animals are scavengers and not healthy for anyone to eat. So I do partially agree with you, on the point that the principles behind those laws are just as true today as ever… they are going by the wisdom of not eating things that cause us to be sick.

So maybe we disagree on whether or not those Mosaic laws are still in effect, but I don't need to believe that to be a Christian vegan, because I base my position on other things, as you know, like God's perfect will, as clearly stated in Genesis 1 and the prophetic scriptures... and of course, on the tons and tons of scriptures that command us to be merciful, to love others and do no harm to our neighbor, which includes the animals because God's love and mercy extends to animals, and they are indeed our neighbors.

The Apostle Paul, raised as a Pharisee and at one time determined to stamp out any Christian beliefs (i.e. 'heresy') among the Jews, struggled mightily with the concept of grace and liberation from the Old Testament Law vs his respect and conditioning to follow that Law. Time and again in his letters to the congregations, he would leave the O.T. law and then feel compelled to rescue it to some degree.

I suspect those letters though may have been known to Luke attributed as the author of the Book of Acts. And I think might have influenced Chapters 10 and 11 of Acts to illustrate Peter's struggle to balance the liberty the Gospel offers the people vs strict obedience to the O.T. Law.

 

[buttercup]

The world is gonna do what they do. That's not going to make me play games with what I believe are the facts. Whether you believe SOME were born that way, or it is a learned behavior, if a person claims to be seeking Christ, fighting the pull of that sin is a requirement. Just like I can't give into the sexual pulls that tempt me, neither can they or anyone else. God doesn't expect flawed human beings to live perfect lives, but He does expect you to fight the good fight.

The Word of God is clear on this matter. Nobody said it was the easy path, but it is required.

I don't think it has to do with playing games, but about not saying things that could mislead people. There needs to be clarity, if Christians say "Yes, some gays were born that way" then I think that in the same sentence it should be made clear that that doesn't mean it is natural or what God designed, in the same way that being born with a genetic propensity for alcoholism doesn't mean that it's a healthy natural thing to be an alcoholic.

But anyway, I definitely agree with your point that fighting the pull of any sinful behavior is required, and that just because we are all flawed beings doesn't mean we should throw our arms up in the air and do whatever we want, I mean, I think that goes without saying.

 

[GMCGeneral]

I agree. And most of us fall way short of that standard. And we fall much further short of that standard when we are so sure we know what the Scriptures say and assume the other person does not.

As believers we need to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach us His Word. That gives us not only the confidence, but the right and authority under G-d to proclaim His Word to a hurting and sin infested world.

 

[Foxfyre]

As believers we need to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach us His Word. That gives us not only the confidence, but the right and authority under G-d to proclaim His Word to a hurting and sin infested world.

All the more reason not to assume we are smarter than the other person informed by that same Holy Spirit.

 

[GMCGeneral]

All the more reason not to assume we are smarter than the other person informed by that same Holy Spirit.

No, it is not the reason to keep quiet about the Gospel.