Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Meriweather]

Let's turn the question around: why do you believe God is real?

I searched. And found. It started as a toddler. I told my parents that if God could make Himself known to Noah, etc., He could make Himself known to me. They laughed and said God did not do that any more. I said nothing, but I was determined. God would just have to do it again. It took years of determination.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't know, ask the infant amalekites.

Can I just ask the infants who passed away from SIDS? There have probably been a lot more of them. Or, maybe all those who ended life after years suffering from Alzheimer?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Long ago a Rabbi was asked to sum up the Bible. He responded: "Love God. Love your fellowman. The rest is just commentary."

Did he? Good for him.

I changed it just a tad for atheists: "Love goodness. Love your fellowman. God will take it from there."

Thanks for the dismissive back-handed slap. The patronizing is appreciated.

The rule is love. Keep it simple and don't get caught up in the details that make one crazy.

If it WERE that simple I'd be happy as a clam. And if you aren't particularly familiar with theology or the existence of other religions I can see how simple that sounds.

Can I ask when God "changed"? Because in the OT God doesn't quite operate like that.

Don't get me wrong: I LOVE the God of the NT. He seems like a genuinely nice guy. The God of the OT, on the other hand, well, ....

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I searched. And found. It started as a toddler. I told my parents that if God could make Himself known to Noah, etc., He could make Himself known to me. They laughed and said God did not do that any more. I said nothing, but I was determined. God would just have to do it again. It took years of determination.

...and? ARe you going to tell me how God manifested himself to you?

 

[Meriweather]

The God of the OT is brutal and bloodthirstly. A vicious partisan for a small tribe of near-desert dwellers and He glorifies them by encouraging them in the Bible to murder, kill and slaughter so that they might increase their lands.

We already discussed this. I know that is how some with a Western culture perspective and a modern English translation see it. They cannot get past it; it is where they are stuck. I am sorry about it, but it doesn't appear there is anything that can be done about it.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Can I just ask the infants who passed away from SIDS? There have probably been a lot more of them. Or, maybe all those who ended life after years suffering from Alzheimer?

To my knowledge God didn't COMMAND someone to kill these infants. And if one survived I don't recall God PUNISHING the parents of them for NOT killing them.

Re-read 1Sam15:3 et seq.

No, you have to ask God's victims how they feel about the experience. Not me. The innocent infants God told Samuel to tell Saul to slaughter. And when Saul failed to slaughter EVERY LIVING THING of Amalek God turned away from Saul.

I understand this is a VERY uncomfortable verse but it exists in the Bible and presumably those who know all about God think it is valuable information to keep in the bible.

I will never NOT be fascinated by how people square this circle.

 

[Meriweather]

The God of the OT is brutal and bloodthirstly. A vicious partisan for a small tribe of near-desert dwellers and He glorifies them by encouraging them in the Bible to murder, kill and slaughter so that they might increase their lands.

The God of the NT is a god of eternal love. He loves all people everywhere, no matter what.

The God of the OT is Ike beating Tina.
The God of the NT is Ike buying Tina flowers and assuring her he no longer beats.

Not how I see it.

 

[Meriweather]

Thanks for the dismissive back-handed slap. The patronizing is appreciated.

You missed the sincerity. The atheists in my family do not.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

We already discussed this. I know that is how some with a Western culture perspective and a modern English translation see it.

I'm sorry but that's just absurd. You've read the OT, correct? There is not "alternate" read to the commands to slaughter and utterly destroy. Give me a break. You would be on more solid ground if you simply denied that the OT was an accurate set of stories.

They cannot get past it; it is where they are stuck. I am sorry about it, but it doesn't appear there is anything that can be done about it.

Can you tell me what the stories of Joshua and the Israelite invasion of Caanan are actually about? Clearly you think all the murder at the hands of God's chosen people (often with God's express help) doesn't mean what the words say.

So let's take a simple one. Explain to me what the words of 1 Sam 15:3 ACTUALLY say.

Thanks.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Not how I see it.

Do you approve of the slaughter of the Amalekite infants and old women?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You missed the sincerity. The atheists in my family do not.

You were patronizing in saying god will take care of it. Sorry. If you can't take the heat you should be more mindful of what you say.

 

[Meriweather]

Don't get me wrong: I LOVE the God of the NT. He seems like a genuinely nice guy. The God of the OT, on the other hand, well, ....

You are determined to hang onto that English translation. Being a stubborn person myself, I understand that determination. After 'meeting' God (so-to-speak) and knowing the Old Testament had missed something, I began digging into what THEY had missed. Instead, after studying the language, cultures, and histories, I discovered what I has missed. You seem to have a sincere belief you haven't missed a thing. We go with what we have.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You are determined to hang onto that English translation.

Simple enough: just tell me what 1 Sam 15:3 ACTUALLY says in reality.

THanks.

 

[Meriweather]

...and? ARe you going to tell me how God manifested himself to you?

No. The Bible has many stories of God's manifestations. So do stories of Catholic saints and other Christians. My story(s) will just be more for you to dismiss, and for me, they are too precious to be dismissed. You need your own story. Then all the other stories make sense and are not so easily dismissed.

Besides, "How" God did it does not matter. I don't want you running off trying to pursue the How. I doubt that will get you what you seek.

(PS - This is why I don't pursue further research into non-Catholic Christianity. I do understand it very well, and I have rejected it. If the Catholic Church were to disappear, Judaism would be the faith to which I would turn.)

 

[Meriweather]

To my knowledge God didn't COMMAND someone to kill these infants. And if one survived I don't recall God PUNISHING the parents of them for NOT killing them.

Re-read 1Sam15:3 et seq.

No, you have to ask God's victims how they feel about the experience. Not me. The innocent infants God told Samuel to tell Saul to slaughter. And when Saul failed to slaughter EVERY LIVING THING of Amalek God turned away from Saul.

I understand this is a VERY uncomfortable verse but it exists in the Bible and presumably those who know all about God think it is valuable information to keep in the bible.

I will never NOT be fascinated by how people square this circle.

We have already discussed this. I have moved on and have nothing further to add. You already know I doubt God gave any such command, you have great faith that He did. Remember, the Jews hold the belief the Command came out of both Justice and Mercy. I am fine with all of our beliefs. We.don't.know. We weren't there.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you approve of the slaughter of the Amalekite infants and old women?

The fact you asked the question at all tells me you are already convinced I do. You believe God approved it, and if God approved it, then you must hold the very strong conviction that everyone who holds any belief in God obviously approves of the slaughter of infants and old women.

 

[Meriweather]

You were patronizing in saying god will take care of it. Sorry. If you can't take the heat you should be more mindful of what you say.

No I wasn't patronizing. It is a very strong conviction based on an incident I had with my atheist grandfather about a year after his passing.

Grin. If you think you are delivering "heat" you are going to have to ratchet it up a couple of dozen notches before you even come close. A misconception is not heat. It barely reaches lukewarm. I hope you are not offended when I correct your misconceptions about me? Because, if you are happier with your misconceptions of me than with the actual me, I would as soon move on.

 

[Meriweather]

Simple enough: just tell me what 1 Sam 15:3 ACTUALLY says in reality.

THanks.

Already discussed/answered.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Already discussed/answered.

I don't recall that. Please point to the post.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

The fact you asked the question at all tells me you are already convinced I do.

No. I simply want YOU to tell me what the Bible MEANS when it clearly states the obvious.

You believe God approved it, and if God approved it,

So the Bible is lying?

then you must hold the very strong conviction that everyone who holds any belief in God obviously approves of the slaughter of infants and old women.

Then you'll explain to me how one tells which parts of the Bible are LIES and which parts are truth.