Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[ding]

Christianity is a mental disease.

It's odd that you single out Christianity.

 

[ding]

Not what physicists say.

The fact of the matter is we do not know what happened the nanosecond before the universe came to be so we really don;t know if nothing existed before it.

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be discoverable that the creation of the material world was intentional.

God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create if it weren't created intentionally to produce intelligence.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All I have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

 

[Cougarbear]

Why do people have a need to believe in gods?

The normal life say 2,000 years ago was to sleep at night and get up and work during the day. The sun rose up and would give us warmth and light to do our work. We hope that the sun will come up every day after some time in the night time. We then give thanks for the warmth of the sun and the opportunities during the day. And, we give thanks for the opportunities during the night to rest and sleep. Is there someone or something that gives us the bright object in the sky? Whatever it is, the sun is good. We would know it's good when it gets cold and dangerous in the night time. All things have their opposites. Good has evil and we would be able to comprehend this and conceive this in our human minds.
We have a level of consciousness that animals don't have. We ask questions like "Why am I here?" Where did I come from?" Where am I going after this life?" Why do we conceptualize these questions and logically reason them out in a way that begs the question, is there a God(s)? So, I would ask, why do atheists have a need to believe there is no God(s)? Is it to be the opposition to believe God has allowed us to know about Him through prophets, apostles and the Holy Ghost? I would say yes. It isn't that we have a need to believe in God. It's because like the sun, the Godhead exists. Not in our earthly material world. But, he exists in the world of faith and knowledge of those who have observed the Godhead like prophets and apostles.

 

[ReinyDays]

Science is a creation of man and its been proved WRONG (falsified) more than its been validated by proving facts through experimentation known as the Scientific Method. You can falsify the creation model anytime you wish using the scientific method......if you can present the observable, reproducible, consistent evidences required by the scientific method.

Yeah ... trial-and-error involves much error ... so we try to make things fun ... I have no idea what a "creation model" is ... we have a creation story, but this is kinda useless for predicting future results ... there's no experiment we can conduct that will demonstrate a miracle ...

Most of the rest is about the biological sciences ... so there's a complexity there doesn't really allow simple discussion about scientific method ... evolution is what it is ... I've picked out my best bean plants and I'm saving those beans for next year's crop ... I see no reason to not apply scientific method to this ... if you want to throw out evolution, we'll need a replacement ... something that can be repeated, we can't really expect the Earth to "... bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the Earth after his kind ..." (Gen 1:24) ... again ...

Life evolving from dead non living matter is the fundamental and basic tentent of naturalism...i.e., the theory of evolution

Another example of falsification would be Stephen Hawing........who suggested that the Universe created itself from nothing using the laws of gravity. Reality: Gravity is something rather than nothing and it is subject to Quantifiation (measurment) because of its observable potential and the effects thereof. Where did the Law of Gravity come from?

If you want to deal in facts and truth..........try using APPLIED SCIENCE instead of the philsophy laced Theroretical Sciences that exist only in the confines of the human mind. There is something wrong when a theory does not allow for the possiblity of falsification...........AS YOU JUST DEMONSTRATED. What do you have or the PSEUDO'S have to hide? Perhaps its the addiction to the billions of dollars in government grants that makes theory a for profit industry instead of a SCIENCE which accepts all challenges.

Of course gravity is something ... it's a pseudo-force ... the prefix doesn't mean "does not exist" ... it just means we're treating it as a force, even though we know in some small detail it's not an actual force ... and this is very useful for human-sized things ... like our buildings and our space probes ... obviously we can measure it in the frame-of-reference we exist in ...

The problem is that this Newton's gravity as we perceive it doesn't explain Mercury's orbit around the Sun ... are we wrong to be curious? ...

Life evolving from dead non living matter is the fundamental and basic tentent of naturalism...i.e., the theory of evolution

There's a mathematical basis for this in the Modern Synthesis ... maybe that would help ...

=====

Galileo didn't invent the telescope, he invented a way to make money off the telescope ...
Newton didn't invent the calculus, he invented a way to make money off the calculus ...
Darwin didn't invent evolution, he invented a way to make money off evolution ...
and Hawkins didn't invent Dark Energy, he invented a way to make money off Dark Energy ...

Makes me proud to be an American ...

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

God is the ultimate realization for an individual who seeks answers to all questions. I agree that organized religion has been corrupted by bad people at times. But that should never stop an individual from seeking the ultimate answer to all questions.

God Is the Anti-Christ

What kind of God would let people sin In His Name? Free will doesn't go that far; no real God would allow His Own religion to be abused to harm His believers.

 

[Blues Man]

The normal life say 2,000 years ago was to sleep at night and get up and work during the day. The sun rose up and would give us warmth and light to do our work. We hope that the sun will come up every day after some time in the night time. We then give thanks for the warmth of the sun and the opportunities during the day. And, we give thanks for the opportunities during the night to rest and sleep. Is there someone or something that gives us the bright object in the sky? Whatever it is, the sun is good. We would know it's good when it gets cold and dangerous in the night time. All things have their opposites. Good has evil and we would be able to comprehend this and conceive this in our human minds.
We have a level of consciousness that animals don't have. We ask questions like "Why am I here?" Where did I come from?" Where am I going after this life?" Why do we conceptualize these questions and logically reason them out in a way that begs the question, is there a God(s)? So, I would ask, why do atheists have a need to believe there is no God(s)? Is it to be the opposition to believe God has allowed us to know about Him through prophets, apostles and the Holy Ghost? I would say yes. It isn't that we have a need to believe in God. It's because like the sun, the Godhead exists. Not in our earthly material world. But, he exists in the world of faith and knowledge of those who have observed the Godhead like prophets and apostles.

Pretty much in line with how I believe religions evolved.

Humans invented gods to explain things they feared and didn't understand

Every ancient culture had some sort of thunder god and gods that controlled the sea and sky etc.

as we came to understand these things those gods were discarded and now we are left with one god that is used to explain the biggest mystery and to comfort us from our worst fear

 

[Synthaholic]

It's odd that you single out Christianity.

Not really. It is the one that is doing the most damage to Americans. If I was a Palestinian I would say Judaism. If I was an Iranian, I would say Islam.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

God is the ultimate realization for an individual who seeks answers to all questions.

Seems more like it is a refuge for those who are tired of asking questions and want to pretend they have the answers.

 

[Blues Man]

Seems more like it is a refuge for those who are tired of asking questions and want to pretend they have the answers.

A god did it is the equivalent of because I said so

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

A god did it is the equivalent of because I said so

Even worse, really. When "you say so", there is a chance you could change your mind.

If you think God says so, there will be no possible change.

 

[ding]

Not really. It is the one that is doing the most damage to Americans. If I was a Palestinian I would say Judaism. If I was an Iranian, I would say Islam.

Damage? What damage is that?

 

[Clyde 154]

Yeah ... trial-and-error involves much error ... so we try to make things fun ... I have no idea what a "creation model" is ... we have a creation story, but this is kinda useless for predicting future results ... there's no experiment we can conduct that will demonstrate a miracle ...

Most of the rest is about the biological sciences ... so there's a complexity there doesn't really allow simple discussion about scientific method ... evolution is what it is ... I've picked out my best bean plants and I'm saving those beans for next year's crop ... I see no reason to not apply scientific method to this ... if you want to throw out evolution, we'll need a replacement ... something that can be repeated, we can't really expect the Earth to "... bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the Earth after his kind ..." (Gen 1:24) ... again ...



Of course gravity is something ... it's a pseudo-force ... the prefix doesn't mean "does not exist" ... it just means we're treating it as a force, even though we know in some small detail it's not an actual force ... and this is very useful for human-sized things ... like our buildings and our space probes ... obviously we can measure it in the frame-of-reference we exist in ...

The problem is that this Newton's gravity as we perceive it doesn't explain Mercury's orbit around the Sun ... are we wrong to be curious? ...

Life evolving from dead non living matter is the fundamental and basic tentent of naturalism...i.e., the theory of evolution

There's a mathematical basis for this in the Modern Synthesis ... maybe that would help ...

=====

Galileo didn't invent the telescope, he invented a way to make money off the telescope ...
Newton didn't invent the calculus, he invented a way to make money off the calculus ...
Darwin didn't invent evolution, he invented a way to make money off evolution ...
and Hawkins didn't invent Dark Energy, he invented a way to make money off Dark Energy ...

Makes me proud to be an American ...

You have no idea what the creation model is? "EXACTLY". Its the prima facie based explaination that explains the existence of this reality based upon Logic and Reason...........an alternative model that proves the theory of evolution lacking in physical evidence to sustain its hypothesis of a self creating reality that denies the requirement that every effect within physical reality requires a superior cause....i.e., a CREATOR.

Science......real science that is applicable using the Scientific Method of experimentation that requires, Observation, Reprodubcile consesent conclusions of FACTS in Evidence more than Confirmed the information located in the Book of Genesis in relation to how life is reproduced on earth. Pasteur concluded through a series of experiments that ABIOGENSIS as propagated by Darwin was false and life could never have "evolved" from non living matter such as the scum found on ponds. Pasteur concluded that life on earth could only be reproduced from pre-existing life forms of the SAME SPECIES (no evolution or changing from species to another). Genesis concluded the same thing......Life comes from pre-existing life within the same species....."......each after its own kind" -- Genesis 1:24, 6:20

 

[fncceo]

It makes no difference to me if you're an atheist, or agnostic.
Not sure why people get upset over Christians beliefs or any other religious beliefs.

Getting upset over what the neighbors are doing is what separates us from the animals and makes us human ...

 

[ding]

You have no idea what the creation model is? "EXACTLY". Its the prima facie based explaination that explains the existence of this reality based upon Logic and Reason...........an alternative model that proves the theory of evolution lacking in physical evidence to sustain its hypothesis of a self creating reality that denies the requirement that every effect within physical reality requires a superior cause....i.e., a CREATOR.

Science......real science that is applicable using the Scientific Method of experimentation that requires, Observation, Reprodubcile consesent conclusions of FACTS in Evidence more than Confirmed the information located in the Book of Genesis in relation to how life is reproduced on earth. Pasteur concluded through a series of experiments that ABIOGENSIS as propagated by Darwin was false and life could never have "evolved" from non living matter such as the scum found on ponds. Pasteur concluded that life on earth could only be reproduced from pre-existing life forms of the SAME SPECIES (no evolution or changing from species to another). Genesis concluded the same thing......Life comes from pre-existing life within the same species....."......each after its own kind" -- Genesis 1:24, 6:20

Evolution isn't inconsistent with a creator.

Do you believe that God created the universe?

 

[ding]

Why do we need God?

For peace through the storm. If you can't see how God works in our lives then there is a better than even chance that you don't have peace through the storm.

 

[ReinyDays]

You have no idea what the creation model is? "EXACTLY". Its the prima facie based explaination that explains the existence of this reality based upon Logic and Reason...........an alternative model that proves the theory of evolution lacking in physical evidence to sustain its hypothesis of a self creating reality that denies the requirement that every effect within physical reality requires a superior cause....i.e., a CREATOR.

Science......real science that is applicable using the Scientific Method of experimentation that requires, Observation, Reprodubcile consesent conclusions of FACTS in Evidence more than Confirmed the information located in the Book of Genesis in relation to how life is reproduced on earth. Pasteur concluded through a series of experiments that ABIOGENSIS as propagated by Darwin was false and life could never have "evolved" from non living matter such as the scum found on ponds. Pasteur concluded that life on earth could only be reproduced from pre-existing life forms of the SAME SPECIES (no evolution or changing from species to another). Genesis concluded the same thing......Life comes from pre-existing life within the same species....."......each after its own kind" -- Genesis 1:24, 6:20

Do you consider DNA as prima facie evidence? ... because with this we have both inherited characteristics and a mechanism for small changes generation to generation ... if not then the rest of this, and in fact all of science, will not make any sense to you ... if you want Creationalism to replace Evolution, you'll need to do something about the Chemistry ...

DNA cannot be used to explain anything Pasteur or Darwin said ... I don't know why you're so angry with these 19th Century scientists ... they were good for their day, when sails still ruled the seas ... today we use the Modern Synthesis, which uses DNA as the encoding for cell structure ... the success of the mRNA vaccines testify to the truth of these genetic matters ... Pasteur and Darwin didn't even know about polypeptides until 1902 ... these were the dark ages of biochemistry ...

 

[ding]

Do you consider DNA as prima facie evidence? ... because with this we have both inherited characteristics and a mechanism for small changes generation to generation ... if not then the rest of this, and in fact all of science, will not make any sense to you ... if you want Creationalism to replace Evolution, you'll need to do something about the Chemistry ...

DNA cannot be used to explain anything Pasteur or Darwin said ... I don't know why you're so angry with these 19th Century scientists ... they were good for their day, when sails still ruled the seas ... today we use the Modern Synthesis, which uses DNA as the encoding for cell structure ... the success of the mRNA vaccines testify to the truth of these genetic matters ... Pasteur and Darwin didn't even know about polypeptides until 1902 ... these were the dark ages of biochemistry ...

Do you believe a creator is necessarily inconsistent with evolution?

 

[Clyde 154]

Evolution isn't inconsistent with a creator.

Do you believe that God created the universe?

Evolution is "inconsistent" with the actual content of the Word of God. I accept the Holy Scriptures as inspired by the God of Creation. Apparently you do not.

If evolution is true......then God's word is made into a lie at best and proof that it was not, every word, inspired of God (2 Tim. 3:16)

Look at the book of Genesis and attempt to apply evolution as taught to our children. According to Genesis 1, the formless earth was created first prior to the creation of the stars (Gen.1 1:14-18) Accroding to evolution and the BIG BANG........the earth was created some 9 billion years after the stars were formed.

According to the actual content of the Bible, the earth was initially covered with water (Gen.1:2,6) Evolution declares the earth had no water when created, it consisted of nothing but molten lava.

The Big Bang suggests that our Sun formed roughly 3.9 billion years before the first land based plants first evolved on earth, The Biblical model of creation declares that plants were formed on day 3 and the Sun formed on day 4. If there was a Gap (due to evolution requiring billions and millions of years) between day 3 and day 4 or if each day represents millions of years............how did the plants survive without sunlight for those millions of years? (plants require photosyntheiss to live)

Many of those same plants require insects for pollination but flying creatures were not created until 2 days (billions of years later according to those who accept the fairy tale known as evolution) after the plants were created.

The Big Bang declares that fish preceeded the evolution of fruit trees by hundreds of millions of years while the Bible declares the fruit trees were created 2 days prior to the swimming creatures (Genesis 1:12,1:21)

Today the Darwin cultists declare that dinosaurs evoluved into Birds. The Bible declares that flying creatures were created on day 5..........and land creatures created on day 6 (Genesis 1:21, 1:24)

Bottom Line? The Bible does not allow for evolution or the injection of billions of years for days in Genesis 1. Either evolution is correct or the Holy Word of God is correct. Both cannot be true, both cannot be false according to the laws of logic such as the law of the excluded middle.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Because Something does not come from Nothing

Boob-Tube Babble

Your God comes from nothing, so same difference. And "comes from" begs the question; the world could also have been there forever, with no beginning and no end.

For the McMedia muddleheads who misuse it (and whose ignorant and dysfunctional grammar Netrixers follow religiously), here's an example of the real meaning of "beg the question":
God wouldn't let us believe in Him if He didn't exist.

 

[Cougarbear]

Pretty much in line with how I believe religions evolved.

Humans invented gods to explain things they feared and didn't understand

Every ancient culture had some sort of thunder god and gods that controlled the sea and sky etc.

as we came to understand these things those gods were discarded and now we are left with one god that is used to explain the biggest mystery and to comfort us from our worst fear

Ya, you kind of missed my pivot towards the Godhead making themselves known to the people. And, yes, most people in the earth probably create their own religion based on observations and needs to understand. But, there is a Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost that does let us know they exist and to have faith in them.