Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Cardinal Carminative]

It's you who is wrong. The Bible and I are right because it's the truth and science backs it up.

Does science back up the Bible? Maybe once in a while. It's obvious that the Bible was written by humans and humans sometimes correctly interpret something.

But the Bible also drops the ball quite often in areas where the science doesn't line up. Take the Genesis order of creation. The order doesn't even remotely line up with when the various things show up in the actual rock record. In the case of one thing, photosynthesizing plants, appear before the sun.

Bats are also classified as birds in the Bible.

The Bible does a reasonably good job (with filtering) of explaining many things about human nature and often gives us good rules to live by (again, when you remove the God-ordained slaughters of innocents like the Amalekite women and children etc.)

But it's always dodgy to try to link the Bible and Science. The Bible brooks no disagreement while science operates precisely because of disagreement.

 

[onefour1]

It's in the Ark of the Covenant -- Where Is the Ark of the Covenant?. What was inside the Ark of the covenant? | 10 Commandments | Manna

Anyway, the tablets were found as fragments...

"What happened to the tablets of the Ten Commandments?


The tablets likely hung over an ancient synagogue that was either destroyed by the Romans between A.D. 400 and 500, or by the Crusaders five to seven centuries later, Michaels said. Original article on Live Science."

Has the original 10 commandments been found? – Worldsrichpeople.com

www.worldsrichpeople.com

OTOH, what happened to the original evolution documents?

I believe the ark of the covenant is in heaven. John the Revelator saw it in one of his visions:

Revelation 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[james bond]

We don't know exactly how the universe came to be all we have is a working theory and that is based on the time just after when we think the universe came to be

The god theory is no more proven than the big bang theory

You keep getting it wrong because you believe in a lie.

 

[james bond]

Does science back up the Bible? Maybe once in a while. It's obvious that the Bible was written by humans and humans sometimes correctly interpret something.

But the Bible also drops the ball quite often in areas where the science doesn't line up. Take the Genesis order of creation. The order doesn't even remotely line up with when the various things show up in the actual rock record. In the case of one thing, photosynthesizing plants, appear before the sun.

Bats are also classified as birds in the Bible.

The Bible does a reasonably good job (with filtering) of explaining many things about human nature and often gives us good rules to live by (again, when you remove the God-ordained slaughters of innocents like the Amalekite women and children etc.)

But it's always dodgy to try to link the Bible and Science. The Bible brooks no disagreement while science operates precisely because of disagreement.

Science backs up the Bible in so many ways while nothing for evolution.

 

[james bond]

I believe the ark of the covenant is in heaven. John the Revelator saw it in one of his visions:

Revelation 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Yes, that is one and probably the best verse in the Bible as to its true location. However, I believe there is an earthly one that Moses constructed.

"Interestingly, Revelation 11:19 mentions the ark as being in heaven: “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.” This verse has led some to speculate that the ark was taken up to heaven to be preserved there. But the ark that John sees in his vision of heaven is probably not the same ark that Moses constructed. We know that the articles in the tabernacle were “copies of the heavenly things” (Hebrews 9:23) and that the sanctuary itself was but “a copy and shadow of what is in heaven” (Hebrews 8:5). Revelation 11 deals with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, which ushers in a final round of judgments upon the earth. John’s glimpse of the ark is probably meant as a reminder that God has not forgotten His people, that He is present with them, and that true worship will soon be restored."

What happened to the Ark of the Covenant? | GotQuestions.org

What happened to the Ark of the Covenant? Where is the Ark of the Covenant? Did the Prophet Jeremiah hide the Ark of the Covenant in the caverns beneath Jerusalem?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Science backs up the Bible in so many ways while nothing for evolution.

I tend not to watch someone else's favorite videos but I'm willing to bet I know all the critiques you have of "evolution" and I bet I am familiar with almost all of the "scientific evidence" you have of the Bible. I have been reading in this area for a few decades now. Even back when I was still a Christian!

I would be hard-pressed to accept much of any of these points given my education and my general lack of religious faith.

I can, however, understand the drive one has to make sure reality aligns with the holy writ, even if it means twisting what the words in the holy writ mean or if it means denying what is manifestly clear in the actual physical evidence.

If I felt my immortal soul was on the line for having the wrong thoughts I, too, would join you. Thankfully I have worked to free myself of that mindset.

 

[ding]

That is a restatement of the "first uncaused cause". It posits that all things that happen have a predicate cause. So it requires a FIRST uncaused cause. A first thing ("cause") which must exist. That existence is, itself, "uncaused", in other words it doesn't have to have a predicate cause....no one to "create" it.

That is EXACTLY what you were talking about. It is standard issue theology 101. Aquinas's list of possible proofs of God.

If you think existence cannot come from non-existence then you either:

1. Think God does not exist
or
2. You think God did not necessitate a "beginning" (ie has always existed)

Which is it?

I already told you, eternal and unchanging.

And what was Aquinas argument as to why it requires a First uncuased cause?

 

[ding]

That is little more than psychobabble new-age junk. I know you think that the Copenhage Interp of Quantum makes your comment "true" but that isn't really how it works. Or if it does, there's no way for you to know it.

Incorrect. You literally proved you believe that reality is made manifest by mind in post #178 when you asked the question "how do you know you would not exist?"

 

[ding]

Unevidenced claim = meaningless

Is it?

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

 

[ding]

Fancy smash-up of words. Standard issue new age stuff. Has no meaning.

How else would you describe something (which is in reality no thing) that is eternal and unchanging? The words "source" and "matrix" seem appropriate to me.

 

[ding]

Utter meaningless mental noodling.

Pondering the origin questions is anything but that. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It sharpens one's intelligence.

 

[ding]

You would be surprised that other people have quite different experience of the world than YOU do.

Yes, people do react differently. So not everyone's responses are the same. But they usually end up in the same place eventually... acceptance. It's a process that works better with a connection to God so that something good can come from something bad.

So non-Christians can't be good? Or did you mean to say that?

Why would I have a problem with saying that? Only good can come from worshiping and giving thanks - however they see fit - to one's creator. Humility is a successful behavior.

 

[BreezeWood]

I knew you couldn't handle the truth. The original ones from God to Moses are in the Ark of the Covenant. The tablets to the people were destroyed by the Romans and that's why they're in fragments. You need to die before you understand the truth because of your stupidity. Your logo alone exposes you as a fraud and delusional.

there were two sets, bond ...

no the phonies writen by moses - and were destroyed by moses - before anyone was able to read them, by who made them up.


... they were the only copy, except the makebelieve bond story -



of the "peoples" copy destroyed by the romans ... they also never existed.

* so what are those in the desert books, there is no original to verify them even the phony original copy moses destroyed himself.

 

[BreezeWood]

I believe the ark of the covenant is in heaven. John the Revelator saw it in one of his visions:

Revelation 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

what purpose would the tablets serve in heaven when supposedly they were given to moses who then blew them up ...

- - how everyone is suppose to worship the phony jewish monotheistic god if no one was ever allowed to read them. and somehow have been included word for word in all three desert documents.

 

[onefour1]

what purpose would the tablets serve in heaven when supposedly they were given to moses who then blew them up ...

- - how everyone is suppose to worship the phony jewish monotheistic god if no one was ever allowed to read them. and somehow have been included word for word in all three desert documents.

Who knows? Maybe God is preserving them to come forth at a later time from those who would seek to destroy what actually happened in the Bible. Maybe they stand as a reminder to those who have passed on that God really did create them and give them to Moses and that eternally this is being established as truth.

 

[Dayton3]

Was it the Christians job in the 1700's and 1800's to stand up for slaves for being treated like glorified apes and not human beings and murdered if they got out of line?

If not, what are they good for?.

Fighting immorality of a secular world is not the be all, end all purpose of Christianity

 

[Synthaholic]

Christianity is a mental disease.

Need more proof?



Meister

 

[Blues Man]

You keep getting it wrong because you believe in a lie.

I don't believe in any theory that isn;t actuall proven fact.

We do not know how the universe came to be and we may never know

I don't really have a problem with that so I don't need to make up gods to explain things I might never know

 

[jehanne1431]

Why do people have a need to believe in gods?

Because by “nature” we are more than curious what happens when we die. . While so many others think providing for their retirement years is of far greater importance.
I am certain God exists from empirical evidence, alone, and many other educated folks are not. . Cannot comprehend that every bit as much as you cannot comprehend us.

 

[Blues Man]

Because by “nature” we are more than curious what happens when we die. . While so many others think providing for their retirement years is of far greater importance.
I am certain God exists from empirical evidence, alone, and many other educated folks are not. . Cannot comprehend that every bit as much as you cannot comprehend us.

I think I understand why people need gods.

Your first sentence is one of the major reasons.

I'm not an atheist but many think I am because I am completely indifferent on the subject of gods. I don't think it matters if gods exist or not.