Why do the Left Wing Liberals Hate Corporations?

[Bern80]

What on Earth are you babbling about now?

I'm saying you make rather....interesting arguments for one who claims to not be a liberal.

You said my argument that liberals are not personally accountable was 'fail'. That implies that you DO think liberals hold themselves personally accountable. Personal accountability is found in people with a high degree of personal integrity and yet you claim you're not a liberal. Again, interesting. So interesting that one can only concude that you're either lieing or you are indeed just being disagreeable to be disagreeable. Given history in other threads, Im pretty sure it's the later.

 

[DiveCon]

Somebody else who wanted a safe, efficient means of getting from A to B. There wouldn't be ******* roads without government? You people really do need a nanny state I guess. Obviously you would pretty lost in life if government didn't wipe your ass.

Correct. No company would outlay millions of dollars ahead of time to get from, say, Orlando to Atlanta. They would not be able to even secure the land.

Go be a retard on another forum - we're full here.

You are clearly the retarded one if you think that's how a private company would build a road. Maybe if you used your brain to consider the logisitics and particulars you would realize how stupid what you just said is.

IF it were built by free enterprise, the builder would offer land holders whatever he needed to secure the land. He would build the road and charge a toll for its use.

hey dont ya know, there are no private roads in the USA

 

[Bern80]

The socialist left came out of the political closet when Obama was elected

I was calling myself a socialist before Obama ran

I was a Paul supporter back in '08

Paul? As in Ron Paul? You think he's a socialist? Again....interesting.

 

[Nosmo King]

Why?

Corporations are the greatest drivers of wealth creation in the history of mankind.

because they are outside their control. And , I think they are envious that those that do, do and the others that don't don't, either they are part of those that don't, or part of that set of folks who think they know more, feel 'more' than anyone else and have in their bottomless pit of narcissism, the virtue to match.

That's a shallow view, isn't it? Corporations are not accountable to anyone, are they? They ruin the economy by playing risky sxchemes with their capital, outsourcing jobs to Asia and then the leadership of these unaccountable corporations get the bulk of the profits through golden parachute deals and schemes to take the cream from the top and not 'trickling' it down the way the Conservatives have been duped into believing.

Corporations chafe at the notion of being good neighbors. They can't understand why they can't just dump this crap out back! After all, the CEOs house is two towns over and he'll never be affected by the pollution. Corporations put the screws to the workers by demanding gicve backs in the form of wages and otehr benefits they negociated for. I guess those wages and benefits just foster an air oof laziness among the workers, huh? Too bad that same line of thinking never extends to the executive suite.

 

[Jarhead]

Why?

Corporations are the greatest drivers of wealth creation in the history of mankind.

because they are outside their control. And , I think they are envious that those that do, do and the others that don't don't, either they are part of those that don't, or part of that set of folks who think they know more, feel 'more' than anyone else and have in their bottomless pit of narcissism, the virtue to match.

That's a shallow view, isn't it? Corporations are not accountable to anyone, are they? They ruin the economy by playing risky sxchemes with their capital, outsourcing jobs to Asia and then the leadership of these unaccountable corporations get the bulk of the profits through golden parachute deals and schemes to take the cream from the top and not 'trickling' it down the way the Conservatives have been duped into believing.

Corporations chafe at the notion of being good neighbors. They can't understand why they can't just dump this crap out back! After all, the CEOs house is two towns over and he'll never be affected by the pollution. Corporations put the screws to the workers by demanding gicve backs in the form of wages and otehr benefits they negociated for. I guess those wages and benefits just foster an air oof laziness among the workers, huh? Too bad that same line of thinking never extends to the executive suite.

Would you say that police officers are not worthy of our respect becuase they act with brutality; racial profile; are trigger happy; are dsihonest?

Why do I ask this?

You descirbed the actions of a very small percentage of corporations in the US....seeing as there are tens of thousands of them...yet you support the sentiment that "corporations are like this"....

Well, of the tens thousands of police officers, I described a very small percentage of them.

So tell me...is that how you view police officers?

 

[Nosmo King]

because they are outside their control. And , I think they are envious that those that do, do and the others that don't don't, either they are part of those that don't, or part of that set of folks who think they know more, feel 'more' than anyone else and have in their bottomless pit of narcissism, the virtue to match.

That's a shallow view, isn't it? Corporations are not accountable to anyone, are they? They ruin the economy by playing risky sxchemes with their capital, outsourcing jobs to Asia and then the leadership of these unaccountable corporations get the bulk of the profits through golden parachute deals and schemes to take the cream from the top and not 'trickling' it down the way the Conservatives have been duped into believing.

Corporations chafe at the notion of being good neighbors. They can't understand why they can't just dump this crap out back! After all, the CEOs house is two towns over and he'll never be affected by the pollution. Corporations put the screws to the workers by demanding gicve backs in the form of wages and otehr benefits they negociated for. I guess those wages and benefits just foster an air oof laziness among the workers, huh? Too bad that same line of thinking never extends to the executive suite.

Would you say that police officers are not worthy of our respect becuase they act with brutality; racial profile; are trigger happy; are dsihonest?

Why do I ask this?

You descirbed the actions of a very small percentage of corporations in the US....seeing as there are tens of thousands of them...yet you support the sentiment that "corporations are like this"....

Well, of the tens thousands of police officers, I described a very small percentage of them.

So tell me...is that how you view police officers?

Police officers are held accountable for their actions. Corporations aren't. There are courts and internal affairs divisions to safeguard us from rogue cops. Corporations act with impungnity and whole communities suffer the consequences without means of appeal.

 

[Jarhead]

That's a shallow view, isn't it? Corporations are not accountable to anyone, are they? They ruin the economy by playing risky sxchemes with their capital, outsourcing jobs to Asia and then the leadership of these unaccountable corporations get the bulk of the profits through golden parachute deals and schemes to take the cream from the top and not 'trickling' it down the way the Conservatives have been duped into believing.

Corporations chafe at the notion of being good neighbors. They can't understand why they can't just dump this crap out back! After all, the CEOs house is two towns over and he'll never be affected by the pollution. Corporations put the screws to the workers by demanding gicve backs in the form of wages and otehr benefits they negociated for. I guess those wages and benefits just foster an air oof laziness among the workers, huh? Too bad that same line of thinking never extends to the executive suite.

Would you say that police officers are not worthy of our respect becuase they act with brutality; racial profile; are trigger happy; are dsihonest?

Why do I ask this?

You descirbed the actions of a very small percentage of corporations in the US....seeing as there are tens of thousands of them...yet you support the sentiment that "corporations are like this"....

Well, of the tens thousands of police officers, I described a very small percentage of them.

So tell me...is that how you view police officers?

Police officers are held accountable for their actions. Corporations aren't. There are courts and internal affairs divisions to safeguard us from rogue cops. Corporations act with impungnity and whole communities suffer the consequences without means of appeal.

why did you divert from my question?

I wouldn't do that to you. It shows a lack of respect.

So I will ask again.

Why do you categorize all corporations based on the actions of a few ?

Do you do the same thing as it pertains to Police Officers? Do you say "police officers are corrupt" or do you say "just a small percentage of police officers are corrupt"

 

[Nosmo King]

Would you say that police officers are not worthy of our respect becuase they act with brutality; racial profile; are trigger happy; are dsihonest?

Why do I ask this?

You descirbed the actions of a very small percentage of corporations in the US....seeing as there are tens of thousands of them...yet you support the sentiment that "corporations are like this"....

Well, of the tens thousands of police officers, I described a very small percentage of them.

So tell me...is that how you view police officers?

Police officers are held accountable for their actions. Corporations aren't. There are courts and internal affairs divisions to safeguard us from rogue cops. Corporations act with impungnity and whole communities suffer the consequences without means of appeal.

why did you divert from my question?

I wouldn't do that to you. It shows a lack of respect.

So I will ask again.

Why do you categorize all corporations based on the actions of a few ?

Do you do the same thing as it pertains to Police Officers? Do you say "police officers are corrupt" or do you say "just a small percentage of police officers are corrupt"

Maybe it's because of my personal experience with corporations. Jones and lauglin Steel, Bethlehem Steel, the U.S. Steel Corporation, Crucible Steel, Weirton Steel have all demonstrated no effort to preserve their operations here in this Ohio Valley that set those companies on thier way. They have all, each and every one of the aforementioned corporations, have wrung everything they can from the labor of this valley and shuttered their mills and move away. No appeal. No court of justice to go to.

And whole communities suffered the actions. 4,000 5,000 10,000 jobs lost and those paychecks that used to circulate between grocers and hardware stores and furniture stores and shoe stores are gone.

And they I read of investment houses that screwed the economy, effecting the central banks of the Untied States, Canada, Ireland and Iceland while the executives took outlandish boonuses.

I know there are some honest corporations. I know there are more honest cops than corrupt ones. But the political argument seems to be in praise of corporations at the detriment of plain working stiffs. It's hard for me to justify a love of unaccountable corporations after seeing fierst hand the damage they wreak all to enhance thier profit margins.

 

[Jarhead]

Police officers are held accountable for their actions. Corporations aren't. There are courts and internal affairs divisions to safeguard us from rogue cops. Corporations act with impungnity and whole communities suffer the consequences without means of appeal.

why did you divert from my question?

I wouldn't do that to you. It shows a lack of respect.

So I will ask again.

Why do you categorize all corporations based on the actions of a few ?

Do you do the same thing as it pertains to Police Officers? Do you say "police officers are corrupt" or do you say "just a small percentage of police officers are corrupt"

Maybe it's because of my personal experience with corporations. Jones and lauglin Steel, Bethlehem Steel, the U.S. Steel Corporation, Crucible Steel, Weirton Steel have all demonstrated no effort to preserve their operations here in this Ohio Valley that set those companies on thier way. They have all, each and every one of the aforementioned corporations, have wrung everything they can from the labor of this valley and shuttered their mills and move away. No appeal. No court of justice to go to.

And whole communities suffered the actions. 4,000 5,000 10,000 jobs lost and those paychecks that used to circulate between grocers and hardware stores and furniture stores and shoe stores are gone.

And they I read of investment houses that screwed the economy, effecting the central banks of the Untied States, Canada, Ireland and Iceland while the executives took outlandish boonuses.

I know there are some honest corporations. I know there are more honest cops than corrupt ones. But the political argument seems to be in praise of corporations at the detriment of plain working stiffs. It's hard for me to justify a love of unaccountable corporations after seeing fierst hand the damage they wreak all to enhance thier profit margins.

Do you see how you are allwoing your personal experience skew your thinking? What I bolded....you say "some" corporations, when, in fact, MOST corporations are not as you claim.

When I was young...and this is a true story....I had my brand new 5 speed schwinn stolen right out from under me. THey literally threw me off the bike....kicked me while I was down to keep me from getting up....and took it..leaving behind some beat up bike. There were four of them...all older by years....and they were all African American.

A year later, I was in Getty Square (Yonkers) leaving the dentist with my older sister and as we waited for my mom to pull the car around, my sister and I were mugged by 3 African Americans who beat me up as I tried to stop them from fondling my sister...and they also took my sisters pocketbook.

Yet, despite those two disturbing experiences with African Americans, I do not allow my personal expereinces skew my thinking as it pertains to African Americans. African Americans arent theives or muggers.....just those two groups of people were.

Nosmo....most corporations are ethical employers that pay fair wages, offer solid benefits, generate a profit and service the needs and wants of the people...yes .....MOST...

So why are you allowing your personal experiences with a few rogue corporations define ALL corporations?

DO you think that is fair?

 

[Nosmo King]

why did you divert from my question?

I wouldn't do that to you. It shows a lack of respect.

So I will ask again.

Why do you categorize all corporations based on the actions of a few ?

Do you do the same thing as it pertains to Police Officers? Do you say "police officers are corrupt" or do you say "just a small percentage of police officers are corrupt"

Maybe it's because of my personal experience with corporations. Jones and lauglin Steel, Bethlehem Steel, the U.S. Steel Corporation, Crucible Steel, Weirton Steel have all demonstrated no effort to preserve their operations here in this Ohio Valley that set those companies on thier way. They have all, each and every one of the aforementioned corporations, have wrung everything they can from the labor of this valley and shuttered their mills and move away. No appeal. No court of justice to go to.

And whole communities suffered the actions. 4,000 5,000 10,000 jobs lost and those paychecks that used to circulate between grocers and hardware stores and furniture stores and shoe stores are gone.

And they I read of investment houses that screwed the economy, effecting the central banks of the Untied States, Canada, Ireland and Iceland while the executives took outlandish boonuses.

I know there are some honest corporations. I know there are more honest cops than corrupt ones. But the political argument seems to be in praise of corporations at the detriment of plain working stiffs. It's hard for me to justify a love of unaccountable corporations after seeing fierst hand the damage they wreak all to enhance thier profit margins.

Do you see how you are allwoing your personal experience skew your thinking? What I bolded....you say "some" corporations, when, in fact, MOST corporations are not as you claim.

When I was young...and this is a true story....I had my brand new 5 speed schwinn stolen right out from under me. THey literally threw me off the bike....kicked me while I was down to keep me from getting up....and took it..leaving behind some beat up bike. There were four of them...all older by years....and they were all African American.

A year later, I was in Getty Square (Yonkers) leaving the dentist with my older sister and as we waited for my mom to pull the car around, my sister and I were mugged by 3 African Americans who beat me up as I tried to stop them from fondling my sister...and they also took my sisters pocketbook.

Yet, despite those two disturbing experiences with African Americans, I do not allow my personal expereinces skew my thinking as it pertains to African Americans. African Americans arent theives or muggers.....just those two groups of people were.

Nosmo....most corporations are ethical employers that pay fair wages, offer solid benefits, generate a profit and service the needs and wants of the people...yes .....MOST...

So why are you allowing your personal experiences with a few rogue corporations define ALL corporations?

DO you think that is fair?

The options are boiling down to trust of the state or trust of the board room. I know the state is accountable for its actions. The board room isn't at all.

The political dichotomy is clear between the rights of rank and file workers or the decisions of a few executives. Now those executives have a clear political agenda and that is catering to the private sector above and beyond the needs and requirements of thier citizens.

The issue is quite simple. Are civil rights and personal freedoms more important than property rights? Is the dignity of the common man and his right to speak and strike and negociate along side his fellow man not worthy of the protection of law? What has a higher priority: civil rights or property rights? And, why should either one of them outweigh the other?

 

[Bern80]

Maybe it's because of my personal experience with corporations. Jones and lauglin Steel, Bethlehem Steel, the U.S. Steel Corporation, Crucible Steel, Weirton Steel have all demonstrated no effort to preserve their operations here in this Ohio Valley that set those companies on thier way. They have all, each and every one of the aforementioned corporations, have wrung everything they can from the labor of this valley and shuttered their mills and move away. No appeal. No court of justice to go to.

You think a court should MAKE a business stay open? How do you know why they moved? How do you know they simply couldn't afford to do business there anymore. And another thing you need to get out of your head. Your employer doesn't owe you ANYTHING other than the compensation YOU agreed to for the skills you provide them. That's it. No one owes you a job imperpetuity.

And whole communities suffered the actions. 4,000 5,000 10,000 jobs lost and those paychecks that used to circulate between grocers and hardware stores and furniture stores and shoe stores are gone.

Again see above. You aren't owed a job forever. It is YOUR responsibility to adapt to changes in the market. If that means steel companies need to leave then so be it. You need to adapt. To use a metaphor, just like every other organism on this planet, if you don't adapt to changes, you're gonna die.

I know there are some honest corporations. I know there are more honest cops than corrupt ones. But the political argument seems to be in praise of corporations at the detriment of plain working stiffs. It's hard for me to justify a love of unaccountable corporations after seeing fierst hand the damage they wreak all to enhance thier profit margins.

To an extent you're right. I do blame a lot of this on the labor class. Because you take for granted so much. You demand so much of your employer in return for so little. It should be a relatively simple concept; If you provide a skill to someone you deserve to be compensated for that with a wage of some type. But the avg. employer compensate people with so much more. Not only do they pay you to work for them, for a couple weeks or more out of the year they will also pay you to NOT work for them (vacation). They incure the bulk of the financial burden for your health care as well in many cases. You really want to talk fair is fair? Don't even try it. In fairness the ONLY thing an employer truly owes you is compensation for the work you provide him/her. That is the extent of the fair argument.

 

[Nosmo King]

Maybe it's because of my personal experience with corporations. Jones and lauglin Steel, Bethlehem Steel, the U.S. Steel Corporation, Crucible Steel, Weirton Steel have all demonstrated no effort to preserve their operations here in this Ohio Valley that set those companies on thier way. They have all, each and every one of the aforementioned corporations, have wrung everything they can from the labor of this valley and shuttered their mills and move away. No appeal. No court of justice to go to.

You think a court should MAKE a business stay open? How do you know why they moved? How do you know they simply couldn't afford to do business there anymore. And another thing you need to get out of your head. Your employer doesn't owe you ANYTHING other than the compensation YOU agreed to for the skills you provide them. That's it. No one owes you a job imperpetuity.

And whole communities suffered the actions. 4,000 5,000 10,000 jobs lost and those paychecks that used to circulate between grocers and hardware stores and furniture stores and shoe stores are gone.

Again see above. You aren't owed a job forever. It is YOUR responsibility to adapt to changes in the market. If that means steel companies need to leave then so be it. You need to adapt. To use a metaphor, just like every other organism on this planet, if you don't adapt to changes, you're gonna die.

I know there are some honest corporations. I know there are more honest cops than corrupt ones. But the political argument seems to be in praise of corporations at the detriment of plain working stiffs. It's hard for me to justify a love of unaccountable corporations after seeing fierst hand the damage they wreak all to enhance thier profit margins.

To an extent you're right. I do blame a lot of this on the labor class. Because you take for granted so much. You demand so much of your employer in return for so little. It should be a relatively simple concept; If you provide a skill to someone you deserve to be compensated for that with a wage of some type. But the avg. employer compensate people with so much more. Not only do they pay you to work for them, for a couple weeks or more out of the year they will also pay you to NOT work for them (vacation). They incure the bulk of the financial burden for your health care as well in many cases. You really want to talk fair is fair? Don't even try it. In fairness the ONLY thing an employer truly owes you is compensation for the work you provide him/her. That is the extent of the fair argument.

Why are you so quick to flush the middle class standard of living down the pipes? Hasn't that standard of living served you well? Should American labor be treated as a commodity? Should our standard of living rival India's, or should it be the other way around?

Have you ever heard of consessions made by labor to keep the mills open? I sure have! Everything from retirees now living without the benefits THEY FOUGHT AND NEGOCIATED FOR IN GOOD FAITH to lowering of wages and hours worked, just to keep the mill open. Then Presto! The mill shuts down anyway.

And even folks who never worked in the mill get screwed! Why? Because without a large employer, the value of the community goes down. Property values suffer and no one NO ONER will come and buy the house in McKee's Rocks PA because there's no work there. And the grocer's house, the furniture store employees house, the doctor's house all sit on a glutted market.

And then those folks can't move to some Sun Belt shithole because they can't get squat for their property.

And it's all labor's fault, eh? If that were even remotely true, the homes around here would all be mansions because those dastardly unuion workers wrung all they could out of poor old Jones and Lauglin Steel. please.

 

[Jarhead]

Maybe it's because of my personal experience with corporations. Jones and lauglin Steel, Bethlehem Steel, the U.S. Steel Corporation, Crucible Steel, Weirton Steel have all demonstrated no effort to preserve their operations here in this Ohio Valley that set those companies on thier way. They have all, each and every one of the aforementioned corporations, have wrung everything they can from the labor of this valley and shuttered their mills and move away. No appeal. No court of justice to go to.

And whole communities suffered the actions. 4,000 5,000 10,000 jobs lost and those paychecks that used to circulate between grocers and hardware stores and furniture stores and shoe stores are gone.

And they I read of investment houses that screwed the economy, effecting the central banks of the Untied States, Canada, Ireland and Iceland while the executives took outlandish boonuses.

I know there are some honest corporations. I know there are more honest cops than corrupt ones. But the political argument seems to be in praise of corporations at the detriment of plain working stiffs. It's hard for me to justify a love of unaccountable corporations after seeing fierst hand the damage they wreak all to enhance thier profit margins.

Do you see how you are allwoing your personal experience skew your thinking? What I bolded....you say "some" corporations, when, in fact, MOST corporations are not as you claim.

When I was young...and this is a true story....I had my brand new 5 speed schwinn stolen right out from under me. THey literally threw me off the bike....kicked me while I was down to keep me from getting up....and took it..leaving behind some beat up bike. There were four of them...all older by years....and they were all African American.

A year later, I was in Getty Square (Yonkers) leaving the dentist with my older sister and as we waited for my mom to pull the car around, my sister and I were mugged by 3 African Americans who beat me up as I tried to stop them from fondling my sister...and they also took my sisters pocketbook.

Yet, despite those two disturbing experiences with African Americans, I do not allow my personal expereinces skew my thinking as it pertains to African Americans. African Americans arent theives or muggers.....just those two groups of people were.

Nosmo....most corporations are ethical employers that pay fair wages, offer solid benefits, generate a profit and service the needs and wants of the people...yes .....MOST...

So why are you allowing your personal experiences with a few rogue corporations define ALL corporations?

DO you think that is fair?

The options are boiling down to trust of the state or trust of the board room. I know the state is accountable for its actions. The board room isn't at all.

The political dichotomy is clear between the rights of rank and file workers or the decisions of a few executives. Now those executives have a clear political agenda and that is catering to the private sector above and beyond the needs and requirements of thier citizens.

The issue is quite simple. Are civil rights and personal freedoms more important than property rights? Is the dignity of the common man and his right to speak and strike and negociate along side his fellow man not worthy of the protection of law? What has a higher priority: civil rights or property rights? And, why should either one of them outweigh the other?

You see this is where we most certainly disagree.
Do you know why I treat my employees with respect? Becuase if I dont, they will leave me for an employer that does.
I do not need them to threaten me to get my respect. If they did? I would respect them even less.
Do you know why some employees in my time did not get my respect? Becuase they had an attitude of job entitlement and spent more time looking for reasons to complain than they did attending to their responsibilities that I was paying them for.
Finally, I am not infirnging on anyones civil rights as an employer. If they are not happy with their job; their salary; their work environment; me...they are free to quit and get another job.

But why should MY civil rights be infirnged upon as an employer and be told that I may suffer big losses if I do not give in to their demands?

 

[Bern80]

The options are boiling down to trust of the state or trust of the board room. I know the state is accountable for its actions. The board room isn't at all.

That is as totally ass backwards of thinking as it gets. It is the government that doesn't have the incentive to be accontable. A private busienss does. A private business can't stay in business screwing over it's customers. Government can, has and does. Government does't have the financial incentive to be accountable. Private business does.

The political dichotomy is clear between the rights of rank and file workers or the decisions of a few executives. Now those executives have a clear political agenda and that is catering to the private sector above and beyond the needs and requirements of thier citizens.

No shit sherlock. The problem is not with them. It's with YOU. You are expecting something of a business you have no right to expect of them. Or are you so altruistic that your singular goal in being a business owner would be to provide for other people? People go into business to provide for themselves first. If the business is succesfull it will provide for other people as a bi-product. But it is NOT their goal not their responsbility to provide for your standard of living, period. That's YOUR job.

The issue is quite simple. Are civil rights and personal freedoms more important than property rights? Is the dignity of the common man and his right to speak and strike and negociate along side his fellow man not worthy of the protection of law? What has a higher priority: civil rights or property rights? And, why should either one of them outweigh the other?

They don't. Those are rights you should have. You can negotiate till your blue in the face. You DON'T get to tell a business how they have to run a business or how the have to compensate you however. If a company really does violate your civil rights, you take them to court.

 

[Bern80]

Why are you so quick to flush the middle class standard of living down the pipes? Hasn't that standard of living served you well? Should American labor be treated as a commodity? Should our standard of living rival India's, or should it be the other way around?

Have you ever heard of consessions made by labor to keep the mills open? I sure have! Everything from retirees now living without the benefits THEY FOUGHT AND NEGOCIATED FOR IN GOOD FAITH to lowering of wages and hours worked, just to keep the mill open. Then Presto! The mill shuts down anyway.

And even folks who never worked in the mill get screwed! Why? Because without a large employer, the value of the community goes down. Property values suffer and no one NO ONER will come and buy the house in McKee's Rocks PA because there's no work there. And the grocer's house, the furniture store employees house, the doctor's house all sit on a glutted market.

And then those folks can't move to some Sun Belt shithole because they can't get squat for their property.

And it's all labor's fault, eh? If that were even remotely true, the homes around here would all be mansions because those dastardly unuion workers wrung all they could out of poor old Jones and Lauglin Steel. please.

So what's your solution? Make a business stay open even if it can't make any money for the sake jobs. How the hell is that gonna work?

I'm not flushing the middle class. I'm telling you the respsonsibility is on you to adapt if what it takes to be middle class changes. Get it through your skull. NO ONE OWES YOU A MIDDLE CLASS STANDARD OF LIVING. NO ONE OTHER THAN YOU IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING THAT TO YOU. YOU ARE NOT OWED THE SAME JOB FOR LIFE.

 

[Nosmo King]

Why are you so quick to flush the middle class standard of living down the pipes? Hasn't that standard of living served you well? Should American labor be treated as a commodity? Should our standard of living rival India's, or should it be the other way around?

Have you ever heard of consessions made by labor to keep the mills open? I sure have! Everything from retirees now living without the benefits THEY FOUGHT AND NEGOCIATED FOR IN GOOD FAITH to lowering of wages and hours worked, just to keep the mill open. Then Presto! The mill shuts down anyway.

And even folks who never worked in the mill get screwed! Why? Because without a large employer, the value of the community goes down. Property values suffer and no one NO ONER will come and buy the house in McKee's Rocks PA because there's no work there. And the grocer's house, the furniture store employees house, the doctor's house all sit on a glutted market.

And then those folks can't move to some Sun Belt shithole because they can't get squat for their property.

And it's all labor's fault, eh? If that were even remotely true, the homes around here would all be mansions because those dastardly unuion workers wrung all they could out of poor old Jones and Lauglin Steel. please.

So what's your solution? Make a business stay open even if it can't make any money for the sake jobs. How the hell is that gonna work?

I'm not flushing the middle class. I'm telling you the respsonsibility is on you to adapt if what it takes to be middle class changes. Get it through your skull. NO ONE OWES YOU A MIDDLE CLASS STANDARD OF LIVING. NO ONE OTHER THAN YOU IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING THAT TO YOU. YOU ARE NOT OWED THE SAME JOB FOR LIFE.

The Conservativ e policies of kow towing to the corporations. Outsourcing, tax breaks for moving out of America, lax regulations over investments and bonus structures. If the Conservatives had thought as much about rank and file Americans as theyh had about the corporations funding their campaigns, perhaps we would still have a vibrant middle class.

 

[Jarhead]

I dont know Nosmo...

Seeing as there are strict guidelines as it pertains to entitlements, I am not so sure that it is not the democrats that are destroying the middle class.

For example.....Many are faced with the following decision:

Get a job and make 40K but lose certain entitlements..

Or

Collect unemployment of 20K a year; work for your cousin Trevor banging up sheetrock for 10 bucks an hour off the books for anohter 25K a year and get welfare to cover other food and other needs....

So what is better?

40K less 20% taxes (total 32K) wioth no welfare or 45K less 20% of ONLY the unemployment giving you a net of 41K with food and some housing covered by welfare.

Hmmm....32K no welfare........41K AND welfare....what to do...what to do.

 

[Nosmo King]

I dont know Nosmo...

Seeing as there are strict guidelines as it pertains to entitlements, I am not so sure that it is not the democrats that are destroying the middle class.

For example.....Many are faced with the following decision:

Get a job and make 40K but lose certain entitlements..

Or

Collect unemployment of 20K a year; work for your cousin Trevor banging up sheetrock for 10 bucks an hour off the books for anohter 25K a year and get welfare to cover other food and other needs....

So what is better?

40K less 20% taxes (total 32K) wioth no welfare or 45K less 20% of ONLY the unemployment giving you a net of 41K with food and some housing covered by welfare.

Hmmm....32K no welfare........41K AND welfare....what to do...what to do.

This pre-supposes that 40k job is there. What if it isn't? What if the ONLY job is minimum wage and no health care? Could a minimum wage job provide for the needs of a family AND pay for a health care premium? And are the unemployed, while stigmatized as lazy by the Conservative 'pundits', really lazy, shiftless people lulled into complacency by an unemployment check? Have the unemployed any self respect, or is that quality erased by unemployment insurance? And if the unemployed must move to a new state to secure work, what do you suppose the market conditions are like for them selling their home? The situation isd bleak in _______. No jobs as the factory is now in Siongapore. All the other denizens of the town are trying to sell and move too. So, housing values plummet and the unemployed, along with having no regular income, are faced with loosing money on their biggest investment, the home they built and raised a family in.

And the Republican response? Eliminate unemployment benefits. Really? Democrats ruining the middle class?

 

[Jarhead]

I dont know Nosmo...

Seeing as there are strict guidelines as it pertains to entitlements, I am not so sure that it is not the democrats that are destroying the middle class.

For example.....Many are faced with the following decision:

Get a job and make 40K but lose certain entitlements..

Or

Collect unemployment of 20K a year; work for your cousin Trevor banging up sheetrock for 10 bucks an hour off the books for anohter 25K a year and get welfare to cover other food and other needs....

So what is better?

40K less 20% taxes (total 32K) wioth no welfare or 45K less 20% of ONLY the unemployment giving you a net of 41K with food and some housing covered by welfare.

Hmmm....32K no welfare........41K AND welfare....what to do...what to do.

This pre-supposes that 40k job is there. What if it isn't? What if the ONLY job is minimum wage and no health care? Could a minimum wage job provide for the needs of a family AND pay for a health care premium? And are the unemployed, while stigmatized as lazy by the Conservative 'pundits', really lazy, shiftless people lulled into complacency by an unemployment check? Have the unemployed any self respect, or is that quality erased by unemployment insurance? And if the unemployed must move to a new state to secure work, what do you suppose the market conditions are like for them selling their home? The situation isd bleak in _______. No jobs as the factory is now in Siongapore. All the other denizens of the town are trying to sell and move too. So, housing values plummet and the unemployed, along with having no regular income, are faced with loosing money on their biggest investment, the home they built and raised a family in.

And the Republican response? Eliminate unemployment benefits. Really? Democrats ruining the middle class?

OK Nosmo. I realize you will look at what I say and say "he could be making it up"....but the best I can do is say "may my children suffer if I am lying"..

As a business consultant, part of what I do is help my clients make staffing decisions...we recruit people for the open positions.

We have a very large national client. They have a very sound business model and as a result they are growing as their competitoion peters out...so we have been involved in a very aggressive recruiting mode for them for the past 8 months.

When we recruit people who are on unemployment and 6 months or less intop collecting unemployemnt we have over a 50% "no show" rate as it pertians to simply showing up for the interview. Of the 48% that do show up, less than 25% accept the job if offered as they insist on a higher salary than they were earning on their previous position. Invariably, they are offered about the same as they were earning...sometimes a little more.

Of those that are unemployment longer than 6 months, we have a 26% no show rate.....and closer to a 60% acceptance rate.

On those where unemployment has run out? Less than a 4% no show rate and a 100% acceptance rate.

Of those that are currently employed when offered the opportunity for an interview? A 0% no show rate...a 9% cancellation rate....and a 78% acceptance rate.

The salaries we offer are market salaries. Benefits are 66.67% paid for by employer.

No...as a correction...conservaitves do not see the unemployed as lazy. maybe liberals do and that is why they claim conservaitves do...but we dont.

Instead, we see them as having found a way to maximize lifestyle...and we understand why they do it.

We know many of them care collecting unemployment and working off the books...we know many of them do this which allows them to remain ON THE books within the poverty level and therefore get the entitlements without actually having to live poor.

We see many of them gaming the game

 

[George Costanza]

Why?

Corporations are the greatest drivers of wealth creation in the history of mankind.

I don't hate corporations. Hell, it was corporations that made it possible for me to own lots of things near and dear to me - my cars, my computer, my cameras, my iPad, etc., etc.

What I don't like, is corporations who produce all these great things for us, at the expense of the workers who actually do the production work. You know, employees?

So long as corporations are fair to their workers, I have no complaint. When they cease to do that, then I have complaints.