Why do so many teachers leave the profession?

[Esmeralda]

The thing is you don't really understand it. There is no way someone goes into a university to sign up for a program in secondary education without specifiying a discipline or subject or content area. No one gets a degree in just education at the secondary level. You are confused by the language and the terms endorsement and necessary course requirements. It all means that a person gets a degree in the subject area which includes coursework in education, not the other way around. The bulk of your course work is in the subject area, not in education courses. The person who has a BS in Education with a math endorcement I can assure you has taken far more courses in math than in education. Secondary teachers who have a degree that says education with an endorcesment in a subject area take virtually the same courses in that subject area as those who get a degree in that subject area. If they didn't, they would be unfit to teach the subject area. The diplomas may have different wording, but the course of study is virtually the same except that those who did not study in a program that included education courses but want to teach have to then take more courses in order to become teachers.

There is no way you walk into an unieversity and say you want to get an 'education degree' at the secondary level without linking it to a specific discipline. Your can take some education courses, but you must do the course work in a specific field to get a degree. There is no four year degree at the secondary level in just 'education' by itself. It does not exist.

That's not what you said, and not what I was responding to.

You said this:

Do you not realize that teachers have degrees in those fields in addition to their education credentials? You don't teach in any of those disciplines without getting a degree in them.

It appears that you are attempting to move the goalposts.

What an individual goes to school for, and what the requirements to be a teacher are, are two different things.

You made the claim that teachers have to have degrees in their field (the subject they are teaching) to be able to teach in that field. That is a false statement, I've provided (as an example) the requirements to teach math in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

You (general "you" here) DO NOT have to have a degree in Mathematics to teach Mathematics at the secondary level. You can have any degree from an accredited institution (in any subject including "Education"). If that degree program did not include the required math coursework, or if you have not completed the required coursework as part of continuing education - then you can't get a teaching license (for math). On the other hand if you do have a non-subject degree, and either completed the required coursework or have taken the coursework as part of continuing education - you can get a license to teach (for math).


Again, it's not what degree program you attended in school that matters. It is not what the "degree is in" that matters. You can have any degree as long as it (or later coursework) meets the minimum requirements.


>>>>

I understand your point, but I am not meaning to change the goal posts. You are being pedantic. Originally, I was responding to the person who said teachers get degrees in education and not in serious or difficult fields of study, that a degree in education is lesser than a 'real' or serious degree. My point at that time was the same as it is now, which is that there is no such thing as a 4 year degree in only education, unless it is primary or elementary ed. In secondary education, one has to take virtually the same courses as anyone else getting a degree in that discipline. So though someone may get a degree in engineering, yet be able to teach math, he has still earned a serious degree. He adds certain courses so he can teach math, but does not need to repeat coursework he has already done whilst getting his degreee in engineering. Bottom line, he has done as much serious academic work as anyone else who has either a degree in math or engineering.

Taking another subject, say accounting. Someone may get a degree in education with an endorsement in accounting but also want to teach business. First off, to get the degree in education with an endorsement in accounting, he has done virtually as much coursework in accounting as someone who gets a degree in accounting, at the same levels, plus he has taken education courses. Then, in order to teach business, he must take additional business courses. He will not repeat courses he took to get his his accounting degree, so there will be fewer additional courses to take than it took to get the original degree in accounting, but he has still done as much serious coursework at university level as anyone with a business degree. For example, if this person wanted to enter an MBA program, he would be qualified to do so.

This 'degree in education' by itself alone, at the secondary level does not exist. The bulk of your course work is in the discipline, not in education courses. As I said, if not, you would not be fit to teach in that area.

What you don't seem to want to accept is that there is no such thing as a degree in 'education' in and of itself: not at secondary level: it is always linked to a specific field of study. The term 'endorsement' is confusing you, apparently, and making you think that the person has taken mostly education courses and then a few courses in a specific area. In fact it is the other way around. The bulk of your coursework is in the field of study, not in education. The education coursework is minimal compared to the amount of courses you have to take in a specific field to get that degree. Then once you have that degree, you can add other endorsements in other areas. This usually means less than a four year program because you will not be repeating course work your already completed to get your original degree.

All of which segues back to the OP: if 50% of teachers are leaving after 5 years, it is an indication they can do 'better' so to speak. They have just as many qualifications to work in the private sector as other professionals and will not have to deal with the sometimes overwhelming negatives of being a teacher in America.

 

[Skull Pilot]

"Teachers are some of the highest paid public servants, this means that THE PUBLIC pays for them."

And they SHOULD be paid handsomely. What is the problem with that? If you believe they are paid too much then why didnt you become one? The average teacher where I live makes $50,000. To me thats peanuts for what they do.

50 grand for less than 9 month's work.

You think that's not enough?

It is 10 months a year and most teachers work at least 10 hours a day because of homework, meetings, extra curricular activities, and coaching. And $50,000 is peanuts compared to other professionals with master's degrees, which is what most teacher have or have the equivalent of.

Bullshit.

Add in all the school holidays, teacher development days etc and we're lucky if it's 9 months. And why don't teachers do their so called development in the summer rather than missing class during the school year.

And it's no one's fault but theirs if they have to take work home. The school day is barely 6 hours long.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The thing is you don't really understand it. There is no way someone goes into a university to sign up for a program in secondary education without specifiying a discipline or subject or content area. No one gets a degree in just education at the secondary level. You are confused by the language and the terms endorsement and necessary course requirements. It all means that a person gets a degree in the subject area which includes coursework in education, not the other way around. The bulk of your course work is in the subject area, not in education courses. The person who has a BS in Education with a math endorcement I can assure you has taken far more courses in math than in education. Secondary teachers who have a degree that says education with an endorcesment in a subject area take virtually the same courses in that subject area as those who get a degree in that subject area. If they didn't, they would be unfit to teach the subject area. The diplomas may have different wording, but the course of study is virtually the same except that those who did not study in a program that included education courses but want to teach have to then take more courses in order to become teachers.

There is no way you walk into an unieversity and say you want to get an 'education degree' at the secondary level without linking it to a specific discipline. Your can take some education courses, but you must do the course work in a specific field to get a degree. There is no four year degree at the secondary level in just 'education' by itself. It does not exist.

That's not what you said, and not what I was responding to.

You said this:

Do you not realize that teachers have degrees in those fields in addition to their education credentials? You don't teach in any of those disciplines without getting a degree in them.

It appears that you are attempting to move the goalposts.

What an individual goes to school for, and what the requirements to be a teacher are, are two different things.

You made the claim that teachers have to have degrees in their field (the subject they are teaching) to be able to teach in that field. That is a false statement, I've provided (as an example) the requirements to teach math in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

You (general "you" here) DO NOT have to have a degree in Mathematics to teach Mathematics at the secondary level. You can have any degree from an accredited institution (in any subject including "Education"). If that degree program did not include the required math coursework, or if you have not completed the required coursework as part of continuing education - then you can't get a teaching license (for math). On the other hand if you do have a non-subject degree, and either completed the required coursework or have taken the coursework as part of continuing education - you can get a license to teach (for math).


Again, it's not what degree program you attended in school that matters. It is not what the "degree is in" that matters. You can have any degree as long as it (or later coursework) meets the minimum requirements.


>>>>

I understand your point, but I am not meaning to change the goal posts. You are being pedantic. Originally, I was responding to the person who said teachers get degrees in education and not in serious or difficult fields of study, that a degree in education is lesser than a 'real' or serious degree. My point at that time was the same as it is now, which is that there is no such thing as a 4 year degree in only education, unless it is primary or elementary ed. In secondary education, one has to take virtually the same courses as anyone else getting a degree in that discipline. So though someone may get a degree in engineering, yet be able to teach math, he has still earned a serious degree. He adds certain courses so he can teach math, but does not need to repeat coursework he has already done whilst getting his degreee in engineering. Bottom line, he has done as much serious academic work as anyone else who has either a degree in math or engineering.

Taking another subject, say accounting. Someone may get a degree in education with an endorsement in accounting but also want to teach business. First off, to get the degree in education with an endorsement in accounting, he has done virtually as much coursework in accounting as someone who gets a degree in accounting, at the same levels, plus he has taken education courses. Then, in order to teach business, he must take additional business courses. He will not repeat courses he took to get his his accounting degree, so there will be fewer additional courses to take than it took to get the original degree in accounting, but he has still done as much serious coursework at university level as anyone with a business degree. For example, if this person wanted to enter an MBA program, he would be qualified to do so.

Sorry, you are wrong. I've provided (as an example) the Virginia Teaching Requirements documents that disproves your original statement - you do not have to have a degree in the subject to teaching it. You do have to have completed minimum coursework requirements (either in another degree field or as continuing education).

At the end of the day, you do not have to have a degree in Math to teach Math.

This 'degree in education' by itself alone, at the secondary level does not exist. The bulk of your course work is in the discipline, not in education courses. As I said, if not, you would not be fit to teach in that area.

I never said it did. Although my degree is a Bachelor of Science in Education and yes it is a secondary degree program. My area was going to be Technology Education after I left the military.

Again though, you are shifting to coursework (which I've never disagreed with) and backing away from "have to have a degree in".

What you don't seem to want to accept is that there is no such thing as a degree in 'education' in and of itself: not at secondary level: it is always linking to a specific field of study.

Never claimed their was. That IS NOT, what I called you on. You said a person has to have a degree in the subject field to teach it at the secondary level.

That is false.

The term 'endorsement' is confusing you, apparently, and making you think that the person has taken mostly education courses and then a few courses in a specific area. In fact it is the other way around. The bulk of your coursework is in the field of study, not in education. The education coursework is minimal compared to the amount of courses you have to take in a specific field to get that degree. Then once you have that degree, you can add other endorsements in other areas. This usually means less than a four year program because you will not be repeating course work your already completed to get your original degree.

Again, you are now beginning to correctly phrase the discussion. It's not about what the degree is in, it's about the coursework that the individual completed.

A person can have a non-subject degree and yet have completed the correct coursework and will then be qualified to teach (at least under a provisional license while they complete their education courses).

I'm not "confused" at all, I understand that a person does not have to degree in a specific subject to teach that subject. What they must have is minimum levels of coursework (which is not a degree) to be able to teach the subject.

And I understand "endorsements" very will thank you very much as I deal with them on a regular basis. The license is a generic license to be able to teach, the endorsement provides that under that license what courses you are allowed to teach. The Commonwealth of Virginia (and I assume most states) maintains a matrix of what Endorsement Codes are allowed to teach what Course Codes. (Note: In Virginia there are some Course Codes were no specific endorsement is needed such as "Homeroom", "Study Skills", etc., you just have to have a license with any endorsement.)



>>>>

 

[Skull Pilot]

It must be awful having the entire summer off.

Also, getting all those benefits which most employees don't get must be horrible too.

So, if you think it is so wonderful and so easy and they get paid so well, why aren't you a teacher?

Because I can't stand doing the same thing over and over again.

Really how hard is teaching anything when you've done it for years?

It's not like freshman Algebra is going to be any different in 10 years

 

[ClosedCaption]

Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"

Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job

High Teacher Turnover Rates are a Big Problem for America?s Public Schools - Forbes

Discuss

Long hours?

Summers off, all those holidays etc. Most people would love that schedule.

You don't know the difference between long hours and days off.

One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"

Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job

High Teacher Turnover Rates are a Big Problem for America?s Public Schools - Forbes

Discuss

Long hours?

Summers off, all those holidays etc. Most people would love that schedule.

You don't know the difference between long hours and days off.

One has nothing to do with the other.

BOO HOO. It's a part time job.

No wonder our kids are such whiners. They're just copying their teachers.

 

[ClosedCaption]

"Teachers are some of the highest paid public servants, this means that THE PUBLIC pays for them."

And they SHOULD be paid handsomely. What is the problem with that? If you believe they are paid too much then why didnt you become one? The average teacher where I live makes $50,000. To me thats peanuts for what they do.

50 grand for less than 9 month's work.

You think that's not enough?

It is 10 months a year and most teachers work at least 10 hours a day because of homework, meetings, extra curricular activities, and coaching. And $50,000 is peanuts compared to other professionals with master's degrees, which is what most teacher have or have the equivalent of.

Not only that but they act as if hours don't equal time...Teachers spend a crazy amount of time in and on YOUR childrens education. 2 months off! 2 Months off!

But none, NOT ONE of the people crying would spend 10 hours a day with their own dam children not to mention 30 kids from OTHER people you don't know.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Long hours?

Summers off, all those holidays etc. Most people would love that schedule.

You don't know the difference between long hours and days off.

One has nothing to do with the other.

BOO HOO. It's a part time job.

No wonder our kids are such whiners. They're just copying their teachers.

Wait, so you don't understand the difference between hours and vacation time and your response is "boohoo"?

Is that what your teacher said after you told her you didn't want to be in the 4th grade again?

 

[Skull Pilot]

You don't know the difference between long hours and days off.

One has nothing to do with the other.

BOO HOO. It's a part time job.

No wonder our kids are such whiners. They're just copying their teachers.

Wait, so you don't understand the difference between hours and vacation time and your response is "boohoo"?

Is that what your teacher said after you told her you didn't want to be in the 4th grade again?

I skipped 4th grade.

Teaching is not a full time job and quite frankly it's not that hard. Like I said it's not like basic math and reading have changed much.

 

[ClosedCaption]

50 grand for less than 9 month's work.

You think that's not enough?

It is 10 months a year and most teachers work at least 10 hours a day because of homework, meetings, extra curricular activities, and coaching. And $50,000 is peanuts compared to other professionals with master's degrees, which is what most teacher have or have the equivalent of.

Bullshit.

Add in all the school holidays, teacher development days etc and we're lucky if it's 9 months. And why don't teachers do their so called development in the summer rather than missing class during the school year.

And it's no one's fault but theirs if they have to take work home. The school day is barely 6 hours long.

You speak from ignorance..I dare you to find any Teacher anywhere that says they have a 6 hour work day. You wont because you make up anything to move on

 

[ClosedCaption]

BOO HOO. It's a part time job.

No wonder our kids are such whiners. They're just copying their teachers.

Wait, so you don't understand the difference between hours and vacation time and your response is "boohoo"?

Is that what your teacher said after you told her you didn't want to be in the 4th grade again?

I skipped 4th grade.

Teaching is not a full time job and quite frankly it's not that hard. Like I said it's not like basic math and reading have changed much.

Because you say so from the sidelines

 

[GHook93]

Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"

Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job

High Teacher Turnover Rates are a Big Problem for America?s Public Schools - Forbes

Discuss

What a crock of Shit! The average teacher's salary is $51K! Not what I would want to work, but good money no less. But keep in mind they pay next to nothing for grade A healthcare and little towards their fat retirement package (that bankrupts states and counties!

Yep teachers work 8-3, have to grade papers and test, get weekends off, winter break, government holidays, Spring break and SUMMER VACATION!!! Cry me a river! The long hour compliant is nothing more than the entitlement society rearing it's ugle head!

Public School Teacher Salary - Salary.com

If it lacks professionality that is their own doing. Fact of the matter is teachers have a fundmental job in our society, but the Unions have destroyed the profession. PCness has made the teacher's ability to teach very hard.

Furthermore, teachers get absolutely baseless protection in tenure, great salaries, get a ton of time off and highway robbery pension plans.

They shouldn't be complaining they should be grateful!

 

[ClosedCaption]

Did you know that saying "Crock of shit" means nothing and is not a point. And once again "because I want to believe" is not proof.

You couldn't find anything to back up anything you say. If it's so great why are so many leaving this super awesome, laid back, top dollar job within 5 years?

You couldn't make up a reason even if you trie...I'll take that back...You couldn't back up any reason for that with any proof.

 

[Mr. H.]

"Before 5 years"?
I think that's the point at which teachers are either given tenure or are fired through RIF (Reduction In Force). The reason 50% leave is that they are fired, rather than granted tenure. The reason they're fired is because it's cheaper to re-hire someone fresh out of college. They then give them the "5 year run" and then fire their asses.

It's a racket. I used to have such empathy for teachers when Mrs. H. got hired. Yes her days often extended late into the night working on lesson plans and grading papers. Sure the summers off were great, but it averaged out to a 40 hour week even considering those summers off.

Now- I could give a shit. It is a racket fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism.

LOL Everything in your post is complete fantasy. None of it has any bearing on the real world.

My guess is you either a) are a RIF survivor or b) in administration. No fantasy here, ma'am. I've seen it first hand. The fantasy is yours, and you perpetuate it because that is the job of academia - to retain their own jobs at all costs. Children be damned.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Far too many who complain about education were losers in the system as students.

 

[Mr. H.]

Far too many who complain about education were losers in the system as students.

Well, I've only been to college once so cut me some slack.
Education happens at the higher echelons as they dictate what takes place in classrooms. Even as a substitute teacher I saw such bullshit goings-on with principals, superintendents, and administrators. More so when the wife got hired on as a teacher.

It's a protected enclave populated by friends, relatives, and often-times fellow church-goers. Nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism rule the day.

 

[AmyNation]

In Ohio, if teachers don't retire now, they have to wait 5 years or take a serious cut to their retirement. Many are getting out early because of it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Far too many who complain about education were losers in the system as students.

Well, I've only been to college once so cut me some slack.
Education happens at the higher echelons as they dictate what takes place in classrooms. Even as a substitute teacher I saw such bullshit goings-on with principals, superintendents, and administrators. More so when the wife got hired on as a teacher.

It's a protected enclave populated by friends, relatives, and often-times fellow church-goers. Nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism rule the day.

That is true in many places, particularly small towns and less populated areas, which make the school system the number one employer.

The keys are parents and teachers. The first have the votes, the second have the path. If the two groups work together, they can have a first-rate system.

Oh, about "fellow church-goers"? An East Texas school district in eastern Nacogdoches County always elected the baptist board of deacons as the the school board. Surprisingly, in this case, the school turns out some first rate students.

 

[Mr. H.]

Admittedly, I'm quite bitter about the school board ruining my wife's career, then replacing her with a crony.
Yes, so much is up to parents. To attend board meetings and ask questions. Review the resumes of new hires and check backgrounds of principals, admins, and supers.
Why is a teacher with multiple years of experience passed over for a new graduate?
In this town, the new hire was related to a friend in administration.

But I'll stick to my assertion that 50% don't last because they are shown the door rather than be granted tenure.

 

[Samson]

The thing is you don't really understand it. There is no way someone goes into a university to sign up for a program in secondary education without specifiying a discipline or subject or content area. No one gets a degree in just education at the secondary level. You are confused by the language and the terms endorsement and necessary course requirements. It all means that a person gets a degree in the subject area which includes coursework in education, not the other way around. The bulk of your course work is in the subject area, not in education courses. The person who has a BS in Education with a math endorcement I can assure you has taken far more courses in math than in education. Secondary teachers who have a degree that says education with an endorcesment in a subject area take virtually the same courses in that subject area as those who get a degree in that subject area. If they didn't, they would be unfit to teach the subject area. The diplomas may have different wording, but the course of study is virtually the same except that those who did not study in a program that included education courses but want to teach have to then take more courses in order to become teachers.

There is no way you walk into an university and say you want to get an 'education degree' at the secondary level without linking it to a specific discipline. Your can take some education courses, but you must do the course work in a specific field to get a degree. There is no four year degree at the secondary level in just 'education' by itself. It does not exist.

That's not what you said, and not what I was responding to.

You said this:

Do you not realize that teachers have degrees in those fields in addition to their education credentials? You don't teach in any of those disciplines without getting a degree in them.

It appears that you are attempting to move the goalposts.

What an individual goes to school for, and what the requirements to be a teacher are, are two different things.

You made the claim that teachers have to have degrees in their field (the subject they are teaching) to be able to teach in that field. That is a false statement, I've provided (as an example) the requirements to teach math in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

You (general "you" here) DO NOT have to have a degree in Mathematics to teach Mathematics at the secondary level. You can have any degree from an accredited institution (in any subject including "Education"). If that degree program did not include the required math coursework, or if you have not completed the required coursework as part of continuing education - then you can't get a teaching license (for math). On the other hand if you do have a non-subject degree, and either completed the required coursework or have taken the coursework as part of continuing education - you can get a license to teach (for math).


Again, it's not what degree program you attended in school that matters. It is not what the "degree is in" that matters. You can have any degree as long as it (or later coursework) meets the minimum requirements.


>>>>

"Moving the goal-posts" is really the only possible way anyone could argue that teaching is a "profession."

But why bother? Why is it so completely necessary for teachers to be so "recognized?" No other profession must so consistantly look itself in the mirror each morning and chant reassuringly, "You are a professional, and people like you!"

It is because they realize:
1. They skated through their post-high-school degree
2. They received a job with practiaclly no experience
3. They receive a starting salary that puts most other civil servants to shame
4. They are only in the vaugest sense accountable for achieving anything