Zone1 Why do members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Baptize for the Dead?

[ding]

And that is your right to feel how you wish. We do not force baptism upon anyone. For those living, they must accept baptism while they are alive and there is no proxy baptism for the living. For those who are dead, they too have the choice to accept or reject baptisms performed in their behalf. If they choose to reject it, then the baptism is of no affect upon them and they are without baptism still. So if you don't believe in it, then it will have no affect upon you and if your ancestors don't believe it, it will have no affect upon them either. Only to those who accept it, whether living or dead, does it have any affect upon them. So why get all worked up about something that you don't even believe is a true doctrine of Jesus Christ? Are you saying that you believe it does have an effect upon you or your ancestors? You seem to be under the delusion of the first Catholics who wanted to force all to believe the way they believed. Free will is the true doctrine of Christ and we all have freedom to personally accept or reject baptism. Yes, we perform it for the dead because they are not capable but they still have the choice to accept it or reject it in the world of spirits and have their free will. It is not forced upon them and has no affect if they reject it.

Are you admitting that the LDS is performing proxy baptisms on deceased non-relatives of the LDS?

 

[onefour1]

Are you admitting that the LDS is performing proxy baptisms on deceased non-relatives of the LDS?

Admitting? From an LDS point of view we are all the spiritual offspring of God our Eternal Father in Heaven.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Through Adam and Eve we are all related and are relatives of each other. We consider all who have been born into this world with bodies of flesh and bones to be our literal brothers and sisters and we seek they all may have the opportunity to gain salvation into the kingdom of God. So even you brother or sister Ding are a precious offspring of the Father and are either my literal brother or sister in spirit. And as far as the flesh is concerned your are also my relative through my very great grandparents Adam and Eve. So NO! I do not consider you or any of the children of God on this earth to be a non-relative!

 

[ding]

Admitting? From an LDS point of view we are all the spiritual offspring of God our Eternal Father in Heaven.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Through Adam and Eve we are all related and are relatives of each other. We consider all who have been born into this world with bodies of flesh and bones to be our literal brothers and sisters and we seek they all may have the opportunity to gain salvation into the kingdom of God. So even you brother or sister Ding are a precious offspring of the Father and are either my literal brother or sister in spirit. And as far as the flesh is concerned your are also my relative through my very great grandparents Adam and Eve. So NO! I do not consider you or any of the children of God on this earth to be a non-relative!

So that is a yes.

Which directly contradicts what the LDS said in 2012.

"Word of the new measures and blocked accounts comes on the heels of a statement from top church officials that was read to congregations across the globe last weekend clarifying what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to proxy baptisms.

The statement said Mormons' "pre-eminent obligation is to seek out and identify our own ancestors."

"Without exception, church members must not submit for proxy temple ordinances [rituals] any names from unauthorized groups, such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims," the statement read. It warned that members who violate the rules could lose access to the system and added, "other corrective action may also be taken."

Mormons crack down on proxy baptisms; whistleblower's access blocked​

 

[onefour1]

So that is a yes.

Which directly contradicts what the LDS said in 2012.

Mormons crack down on proxy baptisms; whistleblower's access blocked​

Like I said, we consider all to be our relatives. However because of the butt hurt people who go out of their way to find offense in our practicing our religion, who seek to make such things a legal battle, we do postpone certain proxy baptisms until after Christ comes and rules on the earth. Then it will be permissible under the Lord's rule and by the end of the millennium all the dead who did not receive baptism earlier will have had the opportunity to receive it under Christ's rule. But for as long as we are permitted under the worldly laws governing us, we will do the work for the dead as commanded us by the Lord.

 

[ding]

Like I said, we consider all to be our relatives. However because of the butt hurt people who go out of their way to find offense in our practicing our religion, who seek to make such things a legal battle, we do postpone certain proxy baptisms until after Christ comes and rules on the earth. Then it will be permissible under the Lord's rule and by the end of the millennium all the dead who did not receive baptism earlier will have had the opportunity to receive it under Christ's rule. But for as long as we are permitted under the worldly laws governing us, we will do the work for the dead as commanded us by the Lord.

Sounds like double speak to me. If that were true there wouldn't have been explicit exceptions made for unauthorized groups such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims, right?

"Without exception, church members must not submit for proxy temple ordinances [rituals] any names from unauthorized groups, such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims,"

 

[onefour1]

Sounds like double speak to me. If that were true there wouldn't have been explicit exceptions made for unauthorized groups such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims, right?

"Without exception, church members must not submit for proxy temple ordinances [rituals] any names from unauthorized groups, such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims,"

The exceptions were made because of the big stink people were making against our religion. It was ok to point our resources away from those who were making a stink since there are a great number of people who are dead who need baptism for the dead whose posterity are not making a stink and knowing that this great work for all mankind will be a primary focus of the Lord during his millennial reign upon the earth. So for now we can make peace with those who make a stink because we know that when the Lord rules, and he is in charge, those who were denied baptism by their posterity who are dead will then be given the chance under the Lord's rule. It will be a great work during the millennial kingdom of Christ.

 

[ding]

The exceptions were made because of the big stink people were making against our religion. It was ok to point our resources away from those who were making a stink since there are a great number of people who are dead who need baptism for the dead whose posterity are not making a stink and knowing that this great work for all mankind will be a primary focus of the Lord during his millennial reign upon the earth. So for now we can make peace with those who make a stink because we know that when the Lord rules, and he is in charge, those who were denied baptism by their posterity who are dead will then be given the chance under the Lord's rule. It will be a great work during the millennial kingdom of Christ.

My obligation has been satisfied.

 

[SaxonJackson]

Paradise is also a condition of happiness and peace. It's not just a place. Heaven is a place having a condition of paradise but so was the earth in the days of Adam and Eve before the fall and again it will be a paradise during the millennium of Christ's reign upon the earth.

The thief was promised "paradise." Do you really believe that he was denied Heaven? Is there any record of him every receiving a water baptism? What about babies who die in the crib? Are they denied Heaven because they didn't receive a water baptism?

 

[Cougarbear]

You told me what your church is doing and planning to do and they were caught performing proxy baptisms on non-relatives in 2012.

Stop it! The "Non" relatives were specific for Holocaust survivors. Aside from that, there are no restrictions. I keep telling you that I continue to do proxy baptisms as well as other work for the dead who are not relatives of mine. Relatives of those who submitted them have given full approval to have their work done for them. I have submitted names recently that the work has been done by people in other countries that I do not know and are not related.

And, let me again explain to you and other dense persons, during the Millennium, those who we haven't been able to get done will have their work done during the 1,000 years where Jesus will govern the world and decide the rules of the game. Not stupid bigoted humans.

I did make an error. I have been doing work for 48 years, not 40 years. I was baptized in 1977.

 

[Cougarbear]

My obligation has been satisfied.

Meaning what? Have you satisfied all required blessing like baptism from those who have the correct authority to do so? I doubt it.

 

[Cougarbear]

I don't want anyone in this existence speaking for me. It won't touch me on your planet, in your spirit world.

I am not even allowed in the place (and don't want to be) you will be speaking for me, that "sacred baptismal font inside one of your temples". It's disgusting. Again, why not grab me while I am alive, drag me into your temple and the sacred baptismal font, so when someone has the effrontery to speak for me, I can speak for myself and everyone can clearly hear me say, NO! that I believe in one baptism, and it is not yours.

So funny. You continue to twist the words of Onefour1 and myself. How many times must you hear this. No one is being forced to accept any of the Temple work we do. Not in this life nor in the spirit world. So, why do you want to be dragged into baptism? Yet, you keep insisting you will be forced. Why must you twist and continue to lie. It's like Ding. He does the same thing.

 

[Cougarbear]

Paradise is also a condition of happiness and peace. It's not just a place. Heaven is a place having a condition of paradise but so was the earth in the days of Adam and Eve before the fall and again it will be a paradise during the millennium of Christ's reign upon the earth.

The thief was specifically promised:


Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But Jesus did not ascend into heaven on that day and he told Mary on the 3rd day that he had not yet ascended to his Father in Heaven. So obviously the paradise that the thief experienced was not in heaven but was with Jesus as he preached the gospel to the dead in the world of spirits.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Paul in his teachings of the resurrection uses the ordinance of baptism for the dead to bolster his argument for the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

It's hilarious how people claim to believe the Bible as the word of God but reject much of it as well. By the way, excellent explanations. Anyone with an ounce of logic and reason would get it.

 

[Cougarbear]

Give it up, it is a despicable practice . That is all I am going to say. (I didn't read any further.)

So, baptism is a despicable practice??? Even if Jesus himself stated that the only way to end up in Heaven with him and the Father is being baptized by water AND of the spirit (Holy Ghost)? It doesn't say water OR spirit. And, means in addition to. So, both are required to enter into the Heaven, the Kingdom of God.

 

[Cougarbear]

I disagree that physical, water baptism is necessary for entrance into the Kingdom. A soldier who has no family may accept Christ during battle then die in battle. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is greater than water baptism.

Remember, too, that one of the thieves who was crucified along with Jesus accepted Him while on the cross. Christ told him that he would be with Him in paradise.

Luke 23:43, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

This man was admitted into paradise without a water baptism.

No, the baptism by fire (the spirit or holy ghost) is not greater. The conjunction between the water and spirt is the conjunction "And". "And" means in addition to. Not one or the other. Not one is greater than the other then.

 

[SaxonJackson]

No, the baptism by fire (the spirit or holy ghost) is not greater. The conjunction between the water and spirt is the conjunction "And". "And" means in addition to. Not one or the other. Not one is greater than the other then.

The Holy Spirit is God. The Creator is ALWAYS above the created.

 

[Cougarbear]

The Holy Spirit is God. The Creator is ALWAYS above the created.

I'm sorry that you reject the Bible. That you reject the Christ when he said to be baptized by water and of the spirit. Why do you reject being baptized by water when Jesus Christ himself was baptized by water? So, are you God? Are you an Apostle? Are you a Prophet? Then why are you above the Bible you claim is the word of God?

 

[Robert W]

Strawman arguments.

You wanted to know if we were planning to baptize everyone who has died. What you strawman argued is genealogy and submission for proxy baptism and other works necessary. Two separate issues.

1. We plan to baptize everyone. Most people who have died will not be baptized before the Millennium. Physically impossible. Most will happen during the Millennium. Got it!

2. Genealogy and submission for their ancestral lines will keep everyone busy until the Millennium. And, there are laws in some countries that prohibit certain lines like Jewish Holocaust survivors from being proxy baptized. I was born Jewish. I’ve baptized or had someone baptized who are dead and Holocaust survivors because they are my family and direct to me. The law allows this. However, I can also direct the Church to have someone else baptize them.

Two separate issues. In fact, my orthodox Jewish cousin has done a lot of genealogy on our lines too. He is well aware of this and even knows I’ve done some baptisms. He asked me about it and I said if what we do is necessary and directed by Jehovah, then you would want me to do the work. If Jehovah didn’t, then the baptisms and other works would have absolutely no affect whatsoever on the spirits of the dead. So why get upset about it. He agreed. Any rational person would agree. If you are upset, you then agree the work affects the dead spirits.

Many non-LDS seem to get this irrational idea we will lay in wait for the hearse to pass us and stalk it to the graveyard. Dad and mom did tons of temple work for the dead.

 

[Robert W]

I don't want anyone in this existence speaking for me. It won't touch me on your planet, in your spirit world.

I am not even allowed in the place (and don't want to be) you will be speaking for me, that "sacred baptismal font inside one of your temples". It's disgusting. Again, why not grab me while I am alive, drag me into your temple and the sacred baptismal font, so when someone has the effrontery to speak for me, I can speak for myself and everyone can clearly hear me say, NO! that I believe in one baptism, and it is not yours.

Sounds like Christ is not for you.

 

[Cougarbear]

Many non-LDS seem to get this irrational idea we will lay in wait for the hearse to pass us and stalk it to the graveyard. Dad and mom did tons of temple work for the dead.

There are actually people who think that.

 

[ding]

Many non-LDS seem to get this irrational idea we will lay in wait for the hearse to pass us and stalk it to the graveyard. Dad and mom did tons of temple work for the dead.

That's not my issue. My issue is that your church is being disingenuous with their policy by not being forthright or transparent. It's not about proxy baptism for relatives. Its about proxy baptisms for every person who has ever or will ever live. It's the secrecy that I find appalling.

Do I agree with the practice? No. I think it's idiotic. It's insulting to God's intelligence. But then again, so are most dogmatic beliefs of most religions to some degree or another if they limit God's power.