Zone1 Why are Christians opposed to abortion when God.....

[hobelim]

Sorry, I don't need a book to know what morality is.

I agree, but the fact remains that many of our secular laws are based on the most perverse literal interpretations of the divine commands possible which perpetuates a false notion of morality and crime and punishment instead of what it is actually about, cause and effect.

As I said, my God isn't obsessed with diet, fashion, or the sexual preferences of consenting adults, so in my view any secular law which criminalizes human sexuality is in itself immoral.

Are you one of those who think the non religious have no purpose or goals? Do you think we are amoral? If so, you are an arrogant fool as well as being wrong.

No and no. I think that is morally superior to not believe in a trinity that became a man (yet never existed) than it is to throw your mind in the trash and "just believe" in utter nonsense.

Your position based on logic and reasoning is actually fulfilling the requirements of kosher law

Would you like to see how?

 

[Foxfyre]

when God killed ALL babies in the great flood of Noah's Ark flood fame?

I write this not to anger people, if you're not interested in discussing it, then don't. Keep your religion to yourself and move on. I write this because I've had a conversation in another thread and thought it might be a good question to ask for those who want to test their religion against my lack of religion.

The ancient stories and myths (teaching allegories) of the Bible contain many instances in which God destroyed corrupt and evil civilizations and/or punished the people and the children were not exempt.
--The story of Noah
--The story of Sodom and Gomorrah
--The plague of the first born of Egypt
--Etc.

The Bible also repeatedly shows that children are a blessing and a cause to rejoice.

So what do critical thinkers take from this?
1. God is against sin because it harms people now or in the future and there will be consequences.

2. Children are a blessing to be encouraged, loved, protected, cherished.

I am not one who supports all the most draconian abortion laws that make even a reasonably necessary abortion difficult to get. At the same time, not one of us made it into this world without first being a fertilized egg, a zygote, an embryo, a fetus etc. that all humans are before they are able to care for themselves. The question of whether the unborn baby is viable is ridiculous because the new born baby is not viable without total human care and won't have the ability to provide for his/her needs for some years.

So if we value life at all, I believe the moral position is to value the life of the unborn as much as we do those who are born. I believe it is more often than not immoral for a healthy woman to have her healthy unborn child killed. And when abortion is medically necessary--and that will be a teensy percentage of all pregnancies--it can be the moral choice. But we must always understand that it is a human being that we are having killed.

 

[Meriweather]

Trust me. I have more than just a working knowledge of the bible. I was a Christian since childhood. Grew up in the church. I was even a deacon for some years. The first thing I did upon retirement was an indepth study of the new testiment in order to become a better Christian. After some time there, I moved on to the old testiment. Only then did I realize just how much i had always taken as truth was not. Don't pretend you don't know exactly what I'm talking about when I mention a particular flavor of Christianity. Give specifics that are used in your personal choice of what is to be strictly followed as truth and what can be ignored. Those specifics must be equally adhered too for all biblical stories, or they are just a convienience you use to ignore the parts you don't particularly like.

It doesn't matter what you, I, or anyone thinks. What matters is delving into what the author knew and intended--and what he did not know. What was his culture and customs. What knowledge did people take for granted that everyone knew? All this takes study. The worst thing we can do is assume that the author thought in subjective ways when his own language was anything but subjective. Nor was his culture anything close to Western Culture and what we assume everyone knows.

 

[Meriweather]

You aren't the one who decides what you believe? In that case, I'm wasting my time discussing it with you. All you can do is repeat what you have been told to believe. I already heard all that before we even started the discussion.

Sorry, but you are the one who is repeating what you have been told to believe. Your focus is too narrow for me.

 

[hadit]

Noah's story kinda is about killing babies. along with killing every other person and animal on earth, except a select few. I suppose that's probably hard to understand if you are used to just picking and choosing the parts you like. God killing all those people is the story. Otherwise, there is no story. Many athiests insist on viewinng god stories as they are actually told in the bible, without rewriting them to match what you think it should say. If his actions are those of a villain, what do you expect?

Actually, that's not quite right. It is about God bringing judgement on mankind after over 120 years in which they could have repented and secured a seat on the boat but chose to ignore everything God said and continue on with the evil. Focusing solely on the actual judgement that was passed is a fool's errand. In every case where God passed judgement, look at what the people were doing and how long they had been doing it before getting all incensed about the judgement that was passed. Then, consider how long WE have been doing evil and the judgement that is sure to come upon us.

And yes, when judgement comes, many will be shocked, surprised and appalled and will complain about it, completely ignoring the evil they've done and how long they persisted in it.

 

[hadit]

So many questions, but I have a little more time for now. The only way to have this conversation is in the framework of christians actually believing what is in the bible,and their justification of so many dichotomies.
1. Of course knowledge has grown.
2. Natural disasters exist.
3. My belief about god is immaterial. This is a discussion about what Christians believe and why. Specifically how they justify opposing abortion when the god they worship has been shown in the bible to have killed countless innocent living children.
3. In this specific case, the bible says he took aim and fired when he was in the mood. The flood story doesn't depict the natural death by normally expected causes of those caught in the flood.
4. Death is a natural part of life, but the bible gives many examples where he extended or ended people's lives at will. In this case, he intentionally ended all the lives on earth except for a select few.
5. There is no reason to believe a world wide flood ever happened, or that the story of Noah is anything more than an ancient legend, probably started by a real localized flood that was exaggerated. Again, in the confines of this discussion, that doesn't matter either. If Christians believe it happened, they have to justify all those deaths to maintain the myth of a loving, forgiving god, and to justify their opposition to abortion.

And I have repeatedly done just that. If you continue to insist the flood was just a capricious act of God striking out at innocent mankind, it is because you ignore what I've been saying this whole time. It took Noah 120 years to build the boat and man kept right on committing evil while he did so.

 

[hobelim]

And yes, when judgement comes, many will be shocked, surprised and appalled and will complain about it, completely ignoring the evil they've done and how long they persisted in it.

When judgement comes? Haven't the judgments of God been revealed from the beginning?

If you do this, worship a man, pray to a block of wood, bow down to a city, or if you eat the flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate, crawl on their belly, etc., you will surely die.

Anyone who sets aside this instruction has their reward already. There is no waiting. They have all died, unaware, from sin that is as obvious as a white boulder in the middle of a plowed field.

The way to rise to eternal life has been made straight and clear. What is anyone waiting for?

 

[BULLDOG]

It doesn't matter what you, I, or anyone thinks. What matters is delving into what the author knew and intended--and what he did not know. What was his culture and customs. What knowledge did people take for granted that everyone knew? All this takes study. The worst thing we can do is assume that the author thought in subjective ways when his own language was anything but subjective. Nor was his culture anything close to Western Culture and what we assume everyone knows.

Well make up your mind. Was the flood story subjective allegory or not?

 

[BULLDOG]

Sorry, but you are the one who is repeating what you have been told to believe. Your focus is too narrow for me.

Nope. You are more aligned with what I was taught to believe than anything I have written here.

 

[BULLDOG]

Actually, that's not quite right. It is about God bringing judgement on mankind after over 120 years in which they could have repented and secured a seat on the boat but chose to ignore everything God said and continue on with the evil. Focusing solely on the actual judgement that was passed is a fool's errand. In every case where God passed judgement, look at what the people were doing and how long they had been doing it before getting all incensed about the judgement that was passed. Then, consider how long WE have been doing evil and the judgement that is sure to come upon us.

And yes, when judgement comes, many will be shocked, surprised and appalled and will complain about it, completely ignoring the evil they've done and how long they persisted in it.

Exactly what evil had those babies done to deserve death by drowning? Lots of them were probably not even old enough to hold up their own head. If they had 120 years to change their evil behavior, would they still be babies?

 

[hadit]

Exactly what evil had those babies done to deserve death by drowning? Lots of them were probably not even old enough to hold up their own head. If they had 120 years to change their evil behavior, would they still be babies?

God said all of mankind was to be wiped out. If those parents cared about their children, they would have made sure they were safe on the boat. Obviously, they did not care that much. Ultimately, all are warned and all have responsibility for themselves and for those in their care. I think you have a problem with God bringing justice. When judgment comes to the United States, do you think saying, "But I wasn't a bad person" is going to protect you? And remember, death isn't the worst thing that can happen to someone.

 

[Meriweather]

Well make up your mind. Was the flood story subjective allegory or not?

I have said this several times: The flood was the setting. What specific lesson for humanity is being presented to humanity? Think about how Noah is presented. When did he first speak? What did he say? How does that drive home the lesson/theme being given to us by the author?

 

[Meriweather]

You are more aligned with what I was taught to believe than anything I have written here.

Not from what I've seen. What I see is what we were discussing at the beginning of a middle school level...from there we grew.

 

[BULLDOG]

I have said this several times: The flood was the setting. What specific lesson for humanity is being presented to humanity? Think about how Noah is presented. When did he first speak? What did he say? How does that drive home the lesson/theme being given to us by the author?

Ok. You say the story of Noah is just an allegory,and not an accurate depiction of a real event. It would be inaccurate to judge a god's behavior based on a fairy tale. so for the remainder of this conversation I won't. What about passover? Was that also just another made up story intended to make a point? What about instructions on how to treat your enemies, their wives, and children after a battle? More fairy tales? Please point out anything in the bible that you do believe is an accurate depiction of real events.

 

[Meriweather]

Ok. You say the story of Noah is just an allegory,

No, that is not what I said.

 

[Meriweather]

It would be inaccurate to judge a god's behavior based on a fairy tale.

Now we are back to you believing that with a blink of an eye or something, God sends natural disasters to target specific people. Convince me that God sends natural disasters.

 

[Meriweather]

What about passover? Was that also just another made up story intended to make a point? What about instructions on how to treat your enemies, their wives, and children after a battle? More fairy tales? Please point out anything in the bible that you do believe is an accurate depiction of real events.

How are they "made up"?

 

[BULLDOG]

No, that is not what I said.

Well make up your mind. Is it a literal depiction of events or not?

 

[BULLDOG]

Now we are back to you believing that with a blink of an eye or something, God sends natural disasters to target specific people. Convince me that God sends natural disasters.

We aren't discussing what I believe. We are discussing what Christians say they believe. Expecting consistency in what Christians believe is not too much to ask, especially if they want our laws to reflect their religion.

 

[Meriweather]

Well make up your mind. Is it a literal depiction of events or not?

It is certainly not a fairy tale! True stories are told in different ways, and that way is not in the style of a news report and Encyclopedic information. Several places in the Bible remind us God's ways are not our ways, and that includes emotions. We also learn God's nature is holy, loving, good, and perfect.

It is difficult, almost impossible, for human's to imagine that a Supreme Being can look upon the worst of human behavior and not feel opposition. In English this translate into some kind of temper tantrum

For whatever reason, you want God to be an ogre or a villain in a fairy tale. Or, that if the story of Noah is not an Encyclopedic report it must be a fairy tale. The intent of the Bible and its accounts is to teach us.