Who's to Blame: Big Government or Big Business?

[Wry Catcher]

Look at Kosh here, He would do everything short of handing big business our first-born and totally tie the hands of government to do a thing about it. Now there is a load of misplaced trust

As to your statement that conservatives treasure democracy I just do not see any sign of that when it goes against what they wanted instead. Didn't get the president they wanted, talk of revolt. Didn't beat ACA, sabotage. Hippies protesting banks, call out the goon squad. They might treasure democracy but it is conditional on it coming out in their favor.

And the far left propaganda continues based on their hatred of anything that does not follow the far left dogma without question of hesitation.

Say something substantial to the conversation or shut the **** up. Liberal bashing is fine but try not to seem like such a total retard while doing it. Making the other conservatives look bad by association.

I doubt he makes other conservatives look bad, I suspect his posts are generally ignored and/or laughed at by both sides of the aisle.

 

[OODA_Loop]

the point I was trying to get across here is, how many time a day do we hear the right here call us Dems commies ... but none of them can ever define what a commie is...

The right of the collective over the individual right.

Government equalization of perceived wealth disparity through punitive taxation under the guise of social justice.

Provision by government beyond infrastructure, common defense and the general welfare and into sufficiency and sustainment entitlement.

The de-evolution of man's innate motivation to provide for himself and his own.

 

[occupied]

the point I was trying to get across here is, how many time a day do we hear the right here call us Dems commies ... but none of them can ever define what a commie is...

The right of the collective over the individual right.

Government equalization of perceived wealth disparity through punitive taxation under the guise of social justice.

Provision by government beyond infrastructure, common defense and the general welfare and into sufficiency and sustainment entitlement.

The de-evolution of man's innate motivation to provide for himself and his own.

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

The remarkably monolithic belief system of conservatives is so uniform across millions of republicans I often stop and marvel at the disconnect between your stated regard for the individual and your harsh treatment of anyone who breaks from the pack. I am especially incredulous at claims of individuality when you all gang up on a real anti-authoritarian.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Riddle me this.......................

1 Was Free Trade good for the country..........Yes or no.............

Yes, it opens our products to new markets and lets consumers buy stuff cheaper


2 Was creating Too Big to Fail Companies and Banks good for this country...........Yes or no........

Huh? Who did that? Is Apple too big? Google?

Better question: Does the government have any function at all making guarantees?


3 Was the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act good for this country...........Yes or no............

Needed to repeal FDIC insurance and the Federal Reserve as well


4 Are derivatives and Shadow Trading Good for this country...............Yes or no.........

Yes

5 Are interest payments on the debt good for the future of this country..........Yes or no

Only in moderation

6 Does printing currency to pay unfunded liabilities deflate the value of the dollar........Yes or no.......

Yes


7 We should have bailed out the banks after the crash, including over 16 TRILLION in discount window loans ....................Yes or no............

See repealing FDIC insurance above. When bankers risk their own money they tend to take far less risk than with public money


8 Capitalism doesn't work................Yes or no..........................

Capitalism rocks

9 We can balance the budget with spending reductions.............Yes or no...........

Yes. Eventually

10 Earmarks are good to attach to spending bills.............Yes or No..........

No

 

[OODA_Loop]

the point I was trying to get across here is, how many time a day do we hear the right here call us Dems commies ... but none of them can ever define what a commie is...

The right of the collective over the individual right.

Government equalization of perceived wealth disparity through punitive taxation under the guise of social justice.

Provision by government beyond infrastructure, common defense and the general welfare and into sufficiency and sustainment entitlement.

The de-evolution of man's innate motivation to provide for himself and his own.

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

60,933,500 voted for Romney in 2012. Many, many moderates.

Conservative tenets do not require you to follow personality.

Liberal / Progressive tenets are fluctuating and whimsy based therefore they need to be sold for you to follow and are hawked via cult of personality.

 

[occupied]

The right of the collective over the individual right.

Government equalization of perceived wealth disparity through punitive taxation under the guise of social justice.

Provision by government beyond infrastructure, common defense and the general welfare and into sufficiency and sustainment entitlement.

The de-evolution of man's innate motivation to provide for himself and his own.

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

60,933,500 voted for Romney in 2012. Many, many moderates.

Conservative tenets do not require you to follow personality.

Liberal / Progressive tenets are fluctuating and whimsy based therefore they need to be sold for you to follow and are hawked via cult of personality.

Speak english. I can tell you are trying to defend your faith but that post just made no sense.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

60,933,500 voted for Romney in 2012. Many, many moderates.

Conservative tenets do not require you to follow personality.

Liberal / Progressive tenets are fluctuating and whimsy based therefore they need to be sold for you to follow and are hawked via cult of personality.

Speak english. I can tell you are trying to defend your faith but that post just made no sense.

Numbers shoot your moderates assertion to shit.

Conservative tenets don't require you to follow personality, let alone blindly.

Progressive concepts require a bandwagon.

 

[candycorn]

Yes I threw in partisan Mob rule type tactics. Because they exist. In the heat of the moment people will spend money that might be spent better else where. I believe in making the best decisions with the money they have. I was not comparing data for LARGE tax expenditures but expenditures on the small item of a simple traffic light.

You immediately went large to a transit system budget to counter my argument showing large sums of money spent on something else, instead of smaller sums on lights. I'm thinking the Andy Griffith Show, and your thinking New York City..........

Our Gov't needs to stop thinking, OH it's only this much........Not much in the overall picture. This is the WRONG MENTALITY...........They need to understand that even SMALL expenditures on items eventually add up to Large sums............We need them to be fiscally responsible............but they only suck up to their donors.............

Again, the traffic like is a simple example to a much larger problem. It is an apple's to orange's equation. Our problem is much more significant.

It's no larger than a voter taking responsibility to become informed, vote for a candidate that she/he thinks will do a good job, holding that elected official responsible, and acting accordingly.

If we do that or at least get 2X as many people to do that, it doesn't matter what the lobbyists do; votes will speak louder than money; ask Meg Whitman or that wrestling promoter out in Connecticut.

It really is no larger than that. Except for one thing I have overlooked; stop blaming the "other guy" and worry about your self.

the problem you have here is money ... it talks the loudest ... where the lobbyists have the loudest mouths ... we all know how brain damaged republicans are, if they are lied to by a lobbyists they buy it cause the republicans said it was a good idea ... oh say like not having affordable health care

Regardless of the volume, it's whomever gets the plurality of votes that wins most elections. If the poor were to get out and vote, they'd be the greatest, most powerful voting block this nation has ever seen. Yet few vote.

If you want a great place to study go to any PTA meeting in a poor neighborhood. You and the teachers will be the only ones there. Right up until the State wants to close the school district or merge it with a district where the parents pay 1/2 assed attention. Then you see vocal involvement and engagement.

I heard the same non-sense from Ron Paul supporters last year during the primaries...if you get more votes, your guy will win. Nobody is rigging anything.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Look at Kosh here, He would do everything short of handing big business our first-born and totally tie the hands of government to do a thing about it. Now there is a load of misplaced trust

As to your statement that conservatives treasure democracy I just do not see any sign of that when it goes against what they wanted instead. Didn't get the president they wanted, talk of revolt. Didn't beat ACA, sabotage. Hippies protesting banks, call out the goon squad. They might treasure democracy but it is conditional on it coming out in their favor.

What a terrible attempt at rebuttal, You could back that up with some examples that come close to the 5 year infantile temper-tantrum that the TP manics have had or their instant hatred of everything occupy tried to accomplish. I know Bush pissed off a lot of people but there was no talk of rebellion or any attempt by democrats to destroy the government in response.

Spot on. ^^^

 

[Kosh]

And the far left propaganda continues based on their hatred of anything that does not follow the far left dogma without question of hesitation.

Say something substantial to the conversation or shut the **** up. Liberal bashing is fine but try not to seem like such a total retard while doing it. Making the other conservatives look bad by association.

I doubt he makes other conservatives look bad, I suspect his posts are generally ignored and/or laughed at by both sides of the aisle.

Are you looking in the mirror again?

Although your far left buddy proves that one must follow the far left mantra or be quiet.

Excellent example of the far left mindset.

 

[Wry Catcher]

the point I was trying to get across here is, how many time a day do we hear the right here call us Dems commies ... but none of them can ever define what a commie is...

The right of the collective over the individual right.

Government equalization of perceived wealth disparity through punitive taxation under the guise of social justice.

Provision by government beyond infrastructure, common defense and the general welfare and into sufficiency and sustainment entitlement.

The de-evolution of man's innate motivation to provide for himself and his own.

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

The remarkably monolithic belief system of conservatives is so uniform across millions of republicans I often stop and marvel at the disconnect between your stated regard for the individual and your harsh treatment of anyone who breaks from the pack. I am especially incredulous at claims of individuality when you all gang up on a real anti-authoritarian.

Wow. Clear, concise and spot on. Maybe the best two paragraphs ^^^ posted on this message board this year.

 

[Kosh]

the point I was trying to get across here is, how many time a day do we hear the right here call us Dems commies ... but none of them can ever define what a commie is...

The right of the collective over the individual right.

Government equalization of perceived wealth disparity through punitive taxation under the guise of social justice.

Provision by government beyond infrastructure, common defense and the general welfare and into sufficiency and sustainment entitlement.

The de-evolution of man's innate motivation to provide for himself and his own.

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

The remarkably monolithic belief system of conservatives is so uniform across millions of republicans I often stop and marvel at the disconnect between your stated regard for the individual and your harsh treatment of anyone who breaks from the pack. I am especially incredulous at claims of individuality when you all gang up on a real anti-authoritarian.

I bet you don't even know what a moderate is, unless you consider the far left to be moderates. If that is the case then you are as always wrong!

 

[Kosh]

The right of the collective over the individual right.

Government equalization of perceived wealth disparity through punitive taxation under the guise of social justice.

Provision by government beyond infrastructure, common defense and the general welfare and into sufficiency and sustainment entitlement.

The de-evolution of man's innate motivation to provide for himself and his own.

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

The remarkably monolithic belief system of conservatives is so uniform across millions of republicans I often stop and marvel at the disconnect between your stated regard for the individual and your harsh treatment of anyone who breaks from the pack. I am especially incredulous at claims of individuality when you all gang up on a real anti-authoritarian.

Wow. Clear, concise and spot on. Maybe the best two paragraphs ^^^ posted on this message board this year.

Yes far left propaganda is the best post of the year given by a far left Obama drone.

 

[Derideo_Te]

We the People need to recognize the role that government plays as a useful and effective tool in a civilized society and fund it accordingly. But until we do so we will continue to suffer with the current problems.

At a macro, 20,000-foot level, there are four variables here:

• The amount of funding to the government
• The efficiency of government spending
• The effectiveness of government spending
• The tipping point at which dependency on the government becomes a net negative to a society and culture

I'd guess many would agree about the variables, but not on the degrees of the variables.

.

Yes, I agree. The old saw about you get what you pay for applies. Underfunded governments tend to be more corrupt because government employees look for alternative ways to supplement their income. Governments where money can purchase power tend to be focused on doing what money wants. Governments that create dependency over and above the economy tend to be lethargic. So finding the right balance is no easy task.

 

[Kosh]

Bullshit, a commie to you people is simply anyone who has a slightly more moderate political position while ignoring your own horrible tendency to follow blindly.

60,933,500 voted for Romney in 2012. Many, many moderates.

Conservative tenets do not require you to follow personality.

Liberal / Progressive tenets are fluctuating and whimsy based therefore they need to be sold for you to follow and are hawked via cult of personality.

Speak english. I can tell you are trying to defend your faith but that post just made no sense.

Says one who's religious life is dictated by the political far left.

 

[Kosh]

We the People need to recognize the role that government plays as a useful and effective tool in a civilized society and fund it accordingly. But until we do so we will continue to suffer with the current problems.

At a macro, 20,000-foot level, there are four variables here:

• The amount of funding to the government
• The efficiency of government spending
• The effectiveness of government spending
• The tipping point at which dependency on the government becomes a net negative to a society and culture

I'd guess many would agree about the variables, but not on the degrees of the variables.

.

Well one of the biggest problems in government has been over sight, in many cases there really isn't any over sight. Obamacare is a prime example.

There is a huge spending problem in Washington and so far neither party seems to be to interested in getting it under control.

 

[kiwiman127]

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

We the People are the government so we need to hold ourselves accountable for the government we currently have.

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

I never said other administrations have have abused regulatory authority. However, none have done so remotely as much as the current administration. I am sure any reasonable person would agree with this. The "appointed officials" you mentioned under the current administration have either refused to testify, lied, or actively obfuscated at almost ever opportunity, thereby undermining your argument of oversight.

It is very hard to do oversight when virtually every appointed official lies to you as a matter of Administration policy. Examples: "The NSA does not spy on U.S. Citizens." "Healthcare.gov is on track and ready for a successful launch on Oct 1." "The website is just like kayak.com." "No one at the I.R.S. has singled out Conservative groups. Ever." Benghazi was the result of an internet video."


There are dozens of more examples of outright lies under this Administration I could cite that we both know about.

Is this the type of oversight you were mentioning? Your other ideas I like and agree with. Corporate money needs to get out of politics.

Why not stay above your hate for Obama, I'm no fan either, but as pointed out previously, it's not just Obama, other presidents are equally responsible and they lied to you too. Congress? They spend more time raising money than they do legislating and they equally share the blame for this mess and that'd be BOTH PARTIES.
Otherwise good job.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Yes far left propaganda is the best post of the year given by a far left Obama drone.

Liberals did not learn life truisms, which most learn by 5 years old.

Following becomes second nature to those who lack a moral compass and self-accountability.

The Obama administration plays to this masterfully.

 

[occupied]

60,933,500 voted for Romney in 2012. Many, many moderates.

Conservative tenets do not require you to follow personality.

Liberal / Progressive tenets are fluctuating and whimsy based therefore they need to be sold for you to follow and are hawked via cult of personality.

Speak english. I can tell you are trying to defend your faith but that post just made no sense.

Numbers shoot your moderates assertion to shit.

Conservative tenets don't require you to follow personality, let alone blindly.

Progressive concepts require a bandwagon.

OMG! primary the RINOs out next election if they do not vote right.
"Real Americans" believe X.

Sorry if you are known by your most reactionary examples of conservatism but I'm not the one who lets people like Michelle Bachman near a microphone. Get rid of the plutocrat loving loons who lead you and I might be inclined to believe that there is some sane rationality left in conservative Amurka.

 

[Wry Catcher]

We the People need to recognize the role that government plays as a useful and effective tool in a civilized society and fund it accordingly. But until we do so we will continue to suffer with the current problems.

At a macro, 20,000-foot level, there are four variables here:

• The amount of funding to the government
• The efficiency of government spending
• The effectiveness of government spending
• The tipping point at which dependency on the government becomes a net negative to a society and culture

I'd guess many would agree about the variables, but not on the degrees of the variables.

.

Yes, I agree. The old saw about you get what you pay for applies. Underfunded governments tend to be more corrupt because government employees look for alternative ways to supplement their income. Governments where money can purchase power tend to be focused on doing what money wants. Governments that create dependency over and above the economy tend to be lethargic. So finding the right balance is no easy task.

Two well balanced comments, thanks to both of you.