Who's to Blame: Big Government or Big Business?

[georgephillip]

According to Einstein, we are asking the wrong question.

"Who’s to Blame … Big Government or Big Business?

"Conservatives tend to believe that the captains of industry are virtuous and that the government can’t be trusted.

"Liberals tend to believe that government servants are virtuous and that corporations can’t be trusted.

"But the truth is that psychopaths are psychopaths … whether they’re in the private sector or government.

"And there is no such thing as representative government or free market capitalism anymore. Big corporate money has coopted the government; and ill-guided politicians have destroyed the free market."

Al also supplied one possible answer to this (False) dilemma:

"Albert Einstein said:

"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of the truth.

"Indeed, scientists have shown that people will go to absurd lengths - and engage in mental gymnastics – in order to cling to their belief in what those in authority have said.

"Part of the reason so many are so vulnerable to naive belief in authority is that we evolved in small tribes … and we assume that the super-elites are just like us.

"In reality, there are millions of psychopaths in the world … and they are largely running D.C. and on Wall Street."

Albert Einstein: ?A Foolish Faith In Authority Is The Worst Enemy Of The Truth? | Global Research

FLUSH the DC toilet in 2014!

 

[Clementine]

I totally agree that the problem is with people who hold certain mentalities and they are everywhere!

Many of the big companies in the private sector control Washington. Lobbyists always seem to get what they want. There are no lobbyists for the little people.

We need to get back to basics. Flushing the toilet is a good way to start, but there are years of fixing to be done. They need to go through each and every law and start throwing some out and changing others.

 

[Mac1958]

.

Good stuff.

Both ends are causing damage, and they're both pointing the finger at the other guy. The government could play a vital and valuable service by (1) committing more to effective regulation than control, and (2) understanding that "more" regulation doesn't necessarily translate to "better" regulation.

Capitalism invites corruption just as does government. Seems to me the key is finding a proper equilibrium between the two.

.

 

[candycorn]

Those who dont vote are the problem. Do we need a stoplight at Fourth and Main? There are two ways to find out. A costly study that isoften deemed wasteful or citizenry getting involved, storming neighborhood meetings and holding their elected officials accountable. We, as a group, have deferred to lawmakers to tell us what is best. While I tend to think that most want to do the right thing and would come up with good solutions, the best come from the people. Blaming the nameless, faceless always unpopular "them" is flat out lazy.

 

[nitroz]

Both are to blame.

But honestly, I blame big business more.
We need to have politicians who won't submit to big businesses, but yet remain conservative.

 

[occupied]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

 

[WelfareQueen]

I think both Liberals and Conservatives generally believe Big Business is corrupt. The difference is their view on Government.

Remember, Government is the entity that legalized slavery....denied women the right to vote....denied at least 1/2 the population basic civil rights for several centuries....and has variously stolen, poisoned, kidnapped or otherwise hurt millions of Americans up to the present day. Why anyone would be foolish enough to trust the Government is crazy in my opinion.

When liberals point to things they admire about Government....such as Brown vs Board of Education....it is inevitably pointing out Government fixes to problems or rights denied that the Government created in the first place.

 

[WelfareQueen]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

 

[OODA_Loop]

Those who dont vote are the problem. Do we need a stoplight at Fourth and Main? There are two ways to find out. A costly study that isoften deemed wasteful or citizenry getting involved, storming neighborhood meetings and holding their elected officials accountable. We, as a group, have deferred to lawmakers to tell us what is best. While I tend to think that most want to do the right thing and would come up with good solutions, the best come from the people. Blaming the nameless, faceless always unpopular "them" is flat out lazy.

Traffic signalization is not a democratic process

 

[eagle1462010]

Lobbying | OpenSecrets

Excellent site that talks about the Lobbying on Capital Hill...........
It tracks everyone up there from Political Contributions, Earmarks, and family members or staffers getting Lobbying Jobs for being Nice to their Political Donors.

The Corruption within this net is like a windshield being hit by a rock at 60mph. Creating a large spider web, which expands across the entire windshield.

The only thing to be done in order to fix the windshield is to replace it. However, all these CAREER POLITICIANS do is create more webs.

They all need to go, both sides. It was never intended to have Career Politicians, and now we have the best politicians MONEY CAN BUY.

Even when we fire some of them, they just find a new one to take their place and the cycle continues. Lesser of Two Evils Vote.

And so it continues...........Down the path to Hell for the future of our country. Those on the take don't care. They are getting rich down this path to Hell, and to Hell with the rest of our country.

 

[occupied]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

Because the government at least has the potential to act in the interests of the people and often does. It's when they start acting in the interests of the already powerful that the real problems occur, changing the banking laws to accommodate too-big-to-fail, or failing to prosecute the resultant banking fraud, for instance. They are the only handle the regular person has on the independently powerful for a redress of grievances, without them we might as well just be a feudal society serving the rich as powerless serfs.

 

[eagle1462010]

Those who dont vote are the problem. Do we need a stoplight at Fourth and Main? There are two ways to find out. A costly study that isoften deemed wasteful or citizenry getting involved, storming neighborhood meetings and holding their elected officials accountable. We, as a group, have deferred to lawmakers to tell us what is best. While I tend to think that most want to do the right thing and would come up with good solutions, the best come from the people. Blaming the nameless, faceless always unpopular "them" is flat out lazy.

Over simplified example.

But why the hell not................

1. How is it costly to ask for the DMV to do a computer check at this location to see if it really needs a stop light? Perhaps at this location a recent wreck has caused the death of some members of the community that ever one loved. Causing the neighbors to shout and yell that we need a traffic light.

2. County officials with a limited budget can only afford a few lights in their budget. They have to decide Where to add the traffic lights. So they do a report and find that at this intersection this has been the only Fatal Traffic accident in 2 decades..............Tell the neighbors that it isn't in the funding to put a light there............As they need to put a traffic light in other areas that are possibly getting 1 FATAL ACCIDENT A YEAR instead of a fluke accident at that location.

The neighbors get ticked and create a MOB mentality over the single incident. Get the news in on it showing pictures of those killed at 4th and Main. Snowballing into a massed demonstration to get a traffic light there. Finally, due to the constant bickering the Country gives in and decides to put the traffic light in at that location.

Since their budget is cut by spending there. 20th and Main doesn't get a traffic light, even though it has 1 fatality a year, and has wrecks there often. But that community didn't protest. Didn't go bat shit crazy as the other.............

So the Mob Won. They pat themselves on the back and say look what we did.............


As the intersection down the road, which needed the light more, continues to kill people at a rate of 1 a year...............

That is the mob. Simple incidents, while tragic, running the show. Instead of looking at reason instead of RULING AND SPENDING BY THE MOMENT.

Which also shows the mentality of the left. Ignoring facts and figures for the Mob mentality.

 

[WelfareQueen]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

Because the government at least has the potential to act in the interests of the people and often does. It's when they start acting in the interests of the already powerful that the real problems occur, changing the banking laws to accommodate too-big-to-fail, or failing to prosecute the resultant banking fraud, for instance. They are the only handle the regular person has on the independently powerful for a redress of grievances, without them we might as well just be a feudal society serving the rich as powerless serfs.

Okay...I kinda of agree in a very qualified way...although business can and does occasionally do some good in the community. But your response still doesn't get to the issue of trust.

Why do you implicitly trust Government more than Business? Is it because with Government theoretically you can redress grievances? (Really, only if you have a lot of money, time, and lawyers. You can do the same with business). You can also redress a grievance with business by not shopping with them anymore.

I am not seeing any reason to trust Government any more than business. Both are completely in bed with the other. Neither really gives a shit about the powerless and never has. IMO if liberal leaning folks were as skeptical about Government as the rest of us, America would be a far better place. But to be fair, I applaud liberals regarding their skepticism of big business. That has truly helped America. But the skepticism regarding both entities should be equal. It is certainly equally deserved.

 

[Derideo_Te]

.

Good stuff.

Both ends are causing damage, and they're both pointing the finger at the other guy. The government could play a vital and valuable service by (1) committing more to effective regulation than control, and (2) understanding that "more" regulation doesn't necessarily translate to "better" regulation.

Capitalism invites corruption just as does government. Seems to me the key is finding a proper equilibrium between the two.

.

A regulation without the corresponding control is ineffective. Equally the control is ineffective if the regulation contains no meaningful penalty. In addition the control is ineffective if it is not monitored. The regulation, control, monitoring and penalty need to be in place if you want it to be "better" and that means that the funding must exist otherwise you have nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

 

[Derideo_Te]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

We the People are the government so we need to hold ourselves accountable for the government we currently have.

 

[eagle1462010]

Free Trade and massive Trade Deficits..............

Corps have outsourced the jobs overseas due to Free Trade Agreements. It has literally caused us to lose millions of jobs.............

Commerce Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Commerce Clause describes an enumerated power listed in the United States Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). The clause states that the United States Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." Courts and commentators have tended to discuss each of these three areas of commerce as a separate power granted to Congress.[1] It is not uncommon to see the individual components of the Commerce Clause referred to under specific terms: The Foreign Commerce Clause, the Interstate Commerce Clause,[2] and the Indian Commerce Clause.

Our Gov't has sold out to the corp's in it's responsibility to Regulation of Commerce. For over 200 years we have negotiated Trade Agreements with Foreign Countries. Most of the time it worked, balancing some forms of Protectionism versus losing Trade with other countries. While we cannot take a stance of Full Protectionism, we cannot go completely the opposite way with Free Trade.

We need to take the middle ground and not reward Corps for leaving, while balancing tariffs on foreign goods to ensure that our costs on products go too high. Prime example is China. Laughable EPA standards, Very Low Labor costs, yet we push our companies to extreme's on regulations and tell them to compete with countries like China. They simply have no choice but to leave as well.

And thus our jobs leave, and money circulation leaves as well. Costing us millions of jobs.

Do Free-Trade Agreements Create Jobs?

Ross Perot famously said we would hear a “giant sucking sound” as NAFTA took jobs from the US and he was right. According to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) briefing paper Heading South: U.S.-Mexico trade and job displacement after NAFTA, “As of 2010, U.S. trade deficits with Mexico totaling $97.2 billion had displaced 682,900 U.S. jobs.” (That is net jobs, taking into account jobs gained.)

The EPI study did not look into NAFTA’s effect on US wages (but a 2001 EPI study found wage decreases). Clearly, however, NAFTA enabled companies to close American factories and move production to low-wage factories, putting downward pressure on everyone’s wages.

Public Citizen’s document, NAFTA’s Broken Promises 1994-2013: Outcomes of the North American Free Trade Agreement points out that over one million Mexican campesino farmers were driven out of business (and likely driven north to the US) by subsidized US corn from our giant industrialized farms.

 

[WelfareQueen]

.

Good stuff.

Both ends are causing damage, and they're both pointing the finger at the other guy. The government could play a vital and valuable service by (1) committing more to effective regulation than control, and (2) understanding that "more" regulation doesn't necessarily translate to "better" regulation.

Capitalism invites corruption just as does government. Seems to me the key is finding a proper equilibrium between the two.

.

A regulation without the corresponding control is ineffective. Equally the control is ineffective if the regulation contains no meaningful penalty. In addition the control is ineffective if it is not monitored. The regulation, control, monitoring and penalty need to be in place if you want it to be "better" and that means that the funding must exist otherwise you have nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

 

[WelfareQueen]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

We the People are the government so we need to hold ourselves accountable for the government we currently have.

Please see post above. There are significant portions of the Government where We the People do not have control or oversight. Ex: EPA regulations. HHS Regulations. etc. What redress do We the People have for Obama ruling by Executive fiat and changing obamacare regs on a daily basis to suit his political purposes.

This is not how our Government was designed to operate.

 

[candycorn]

Those who dont vote are the problem. Do we need a stoplight at Fourth and Main? There are two ways to find out. A costly study that isoften deemed wasteful or citizenry getting involved, storming neighborhood meetings and holding their elected officials accountable. We, as a group, have deferred to lawmakers to tell us what is best. While I tend to think that most want to do the right thing and would come up with good solutions, the best come from the people. Blaming the nameless, faceless always unpopular "them" is flat out lazy.

Traffic signalization is not a democratic process

It should be. Or do you simply trust the government to tell you that one belongs there or one doesn't belong there?


Irregardless, it was an example that hits close to home.

 

[Derideo_Te]

.

Good stuff.

Both ends are causing damage, and they're both pointing the finger at the other guy. The government could play a vital and valuable service by (1) committing more to effective regulation than control, and (2) understanding that "more" regulation doesn't necessarily translate to "better" regulation.

Capitalism invites corruption just as does government. Seems to me the key is finding a proper equilibrium between the two.

.

A regulation without the corresponding control is ineffective. Equally the control is ineffective if the regulation contains no meaningful penalty. In addition the control is ineffective if it is not monitored. The regulation, control, monitoring and penalty need to be in place if you want it to be "better" and that means that the funding must exist otherwise you have nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.