Who's to Blame: Big Government or Big Business?

[WelfareQueen]

Sorry to kill your thread George....but no one who embraces Government power will be able to effectively answer the two posts above because they represent tyranny at it's finest.

My point remains...both big business and Government should be equally distrusted by the people. I think both Liberals and Conservatives generally distrust big business. Thank you both. Liberals imho are far less skeptical of Government power and far more trusting in this area than Conservatives. This is hurting America. I think you can easily hold liberal views and still be very skeptical and wary of Government power. I hope Liberalism eventually moves in this direction.

 

[Mac1958]

A regulation without the corresponding control is ineffective. Equally the control is ineffective if the regulation contains no meaningful penalty. In addition the control is ineffective if it is not monitored. The regulation, control, monitoring and penalty need to be in place if you want it to be "better" and that means that the funding must exist otherwise you have nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

Holy crap, lots of good points in these posts.

Seems to me the challenge is finding the points where government can effectively regulate (and yes, enforce) an efficient set of laws without creating too much of a drag on the dynamics of business. What we seem to do is kneejerk both towards and away from regulation depending on the political climate, and that's creating both holes and redundancies.

In other words, an ineffective mess.

.

 

[candycorn]

Those who dont vote are the problem. Do we need a stoplight at Fourth and Main? There are two ways to find out. A costly study that isoften deemed wasteful or citizenry getting involved, storming neighborhood meetings and holding their elected officials accountable. We, as a group, have deferred to lawmakers to tell us what is best. While I tend to think that most want to do the right thing and would come up with good solutions, the best come from the people. Blaming the nameless, faceless always unpopular "them" is flat out lazy.

Over simplified example.

But why the hell not................

1. How is it costly to ask for the DMV to do a computer check at this location to see if it really needs a stop light? Perhaps at this location a recent wreck has caused the death of some members of the community that ever one loved. Causing the neighbors to shout and yell that we need a traffic light.

It was meant to be over-simplified. Do we need a naval base in Italy? I really don't know if it would be better in Italy or Cyprus or Greece or Monaco or Morocco or Spain or France or Albania or where-ever. If I lived near 4th and Main, I could tell you more or less whether one is needed.

I would think the death of anyone whether they are loved or not would spur some sort of action.

As for the question, "how is it costly", it may be or may not be but in every case it would be cheaper to simply ask whoever is there most often (business, home, bus driver, etc...) their opinion.

2. County officials with a limited budget can only afford a few lights in their budget. They have to decide Where to add the traffic lights. So they do a report and find that at this intersection this has been the only Fatal Traffic accident in 2 decades..............Tell the neighbors that it isn't in the funding to put a light there............As they need to put a traffic light in other areas that are possibly getting 1 FATAL ACCIDENT A YEAR instead of a fluke accident at that location.

You're assuming there is an opportunity to tell the neighbors. When I lived in Houston, I took what they called Park and Ride busses. At the time they were considering spending something like a billion dollars on a new rail system that would run from downtown to the shopping district. I went to 2 public meetings. Counting me and the Stenographer, there were 8 people in the audience--there were something like 12 board members. As I recall, some of the 8 were there because it was cold outside and they were homeless. This is the problem.

Since their budget is cut by spending there. 20th and Main doesn't get a traffic light, even though it has 1 fatality a year, and has wrecks there often. But that community didn't protest. Didn't go bat shit crazy as the other.............

So the Mob Won. They pat themselves on the back and say look what we did.............


As the intersection down the road, which needed the light more, continues to kill people at a rate of 1 a year...............

That is the mob. Simple incidents, while tragic, running the show. Instead of looking at reason instead of RULING AND SPENDING BY THE MOMENT.

Which also shows the mentality of the left. Ignoring facts and figures for the Mob mentality.

I knew it would become some sort of partisan nonsense eventually. sigh! And people like you are NEVER to blame...are they?

 

[candycorn]

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

Holy crap, lots of good points in these posts.

Seems to me the challenge is finding the points where government can effectively regulate (and yes, enforce) an efficient set of laws without creating too much of a drag on the dynamics of business. What we seem to do is kneejerk both towards and away from regulation depending on the political climate, and that's creating both holes and redundancies.

In other words, an ineffective mess.

.

The obvious solution (it doesn't solve the problem but the solution to money in pollitics) is to simply publicly fund elections; force media outlets to give free space/air time once every 2 years to federal level-candidates so they needn't take PAC money or lobbyist money or any other major contributions (the media ad space would be bought by public dollars). Also ban any out-of state/district donations, limit the dollar amounts, etc...

Then in November, 4 out of 10 of us on average will choose the course of our nation and likely 2 out of that 4 simply voting to spite the other Party's candidate.

Is this anyway to run a country?

 

[WelfareQueen]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

We the People are the government so we need to hold ourselves accountable for the government we currently have.

A regulation without the corresponding control is ineffective. Equally the control is ineffective if the regulation contains no meaningful penalty. In addition the control is ineffective if it is not monitored. The regulation, control, monitoring and penalty need to be in place if you want it to be "better" and that means that the funding must exist otherwise you have nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

I never said other administrations have have abused regulatory authority. However, none have done so remotely as much as the current administration. I am sure any reasonable person would agree with this. The "appointed officials" you mentioned under the current administration have either refused to testify, lied, or actively obfuscated at almost ever opportunity, thereby undermining your argument of oversight.

It is very hard to do oversight when virtually every appointed official lies to you as a matter of Administration policy. Examples: "The NSA does not spy on U.S. Citizens." "Healthcare.gov is on track and ready for a successful launch on Oct 1." "The website is just like kayak.com." "No one at the I.R.S. has singled out Conservative groups. Ever." Benghazi was the result of an internet video."


There are dozens of more examples of outright lies under this Administration I could cite that we both know about.

Is this the type of oversight you were mentioning? Your other ideas I like and agree with. Corporate money needs to get out of politics.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Traffic signalization is not a democratic process

It should be. Or do you simply trust the government to tell you that one belongs there or one doesn't belong there?


Irregardless, it was an example that hits close to home.

Traffic signalization is most often paid for by private developers who increase traffic and trip generation from their projects, either through direct construction or impact fees. It is done by warrant engineering studies.

e.g:

Developer to pay for traffic light in South Middleton Township

 

[candycorn]

Traffic signalization is not a democratic process

It should be. Or do you simply trust the government to tell you that one belongs there or one doesn't belong there?


Irregardless, it was an example that hits close to home.

Traffic signalization is most often paid for by private developers who increase traffic and trip generation from their projects, either through direct construction or impact fees. It is done by warrant engineering studies.

e.g:

Developer to pay for traffic light in South Middleton Township

Official Site of the City of Phoenix - Street Light Repair Request Form

 

[OODA_Loop]

Traffic signalization is not a democratic process

It should be. Or do you simply trust the government to tell you that one belongs there or one doesn't belong there?


Irregardless, it was an example that hits close to home.

Traffic signalization is most often paid for by private developers who increase traffic and trip generation from their projects, either through direct construction or impact fees. It is done by warrant engineering studies.

e.g:

Developer to pay for traffic light in South Middleton Township

Official Site of the City of Phoenix - Street Light Repair Request Form

The municipality maintains the infrastructure built and dedicated to the public by developers.

Your posted form is to repair street lights.

 

[bripat9643]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

We the People are the government so we need to hold ourselves accountable for the government we currently have.

No we aren't. That idea is pure liberal make-believe.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

This argument has been hashed out 1000 times - however it still is lost on most Americans.
Who is at "fault" - bis business or the government?
They are one and the same. Big business controls the government. Anyone denying that is simply clueless and/or fooling themselves.
Both parties are thoroughly in bed with corporate dollars.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

Holy crap, lots of good points in these posts.

Seems to me the challenge is finding the points where government can effectively regulate (and yes, enforce) an efficient set of laws without creating too much of a drag on the dynamics of business. What we seem to do is kneejerk both towards and away from regulation depending on the political climate, and that's creating both holes and redundancies.

In other words, an ineffective mess.

.

Government can be effective when it is properly funded and has the proper oversight. However there has been a systemic attempt to defund government and to deregulate it from being an effective means of control over business. To complain about the current state of government is to blame the symptom and not the cause.

And yes, you are spot on as far as the kneejerk regulation are concerned. This is another symptom of the above. Something happens and the question is asked as to why this was not properly regulated so the attention is focused on that for the short term while the long term dismantling continues apace in other areas.

We the People need to recognize the role that government plays as a useful and effective tool in a civilized society and fund it accordingly. But until we do so we will continue to suffer with the current problems.

 

[WelfareQueen]

1. Government is more than properly funded.


2. The Government is issuing more regulations than it has ever done in its history.


3. Government Oversight depends on Government Officials telling the truth. When Government officials routinely lie to the Congress or We the People as a matter of policy, everybody loses and oversight becomes a joke. Again, how can effective oversight occur when these are statements given to the American People....most of them under oath.


"The NSA does not spy on U.S. Citizens." "Healthcare.gov is on track and ready for a successful launch on Oct 1." "The website is just like kayak.com." "No one at the I.R.S. has singled out Conservative groups. Ever." Benghazi was the result of an internet video."

 

[Derideo_Te]

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

We the People are the government so we need to hold ourselves accountable for the government we currently have.

Everything you said is true...but there is one huge caveat. Who makes the regulations, who does the monitoring, enforces the penalties, etc? Are they accountable? If so...who are they accountable to?

The Obama Administration makes regulations that are often accountable to no one...are beyond the oversight and control of Congress...and are used as a much to punish perceived enemies as to favor those it likes. The I.R.S. scandal is an excellent case in point. The changing of Obamacare regs on a daily basis solely for political reasons is another. Using the EPA to punish industries you do not like is yet another. I could go on. All of this is a massive abuse of Governmental power.


The foremost Constitutional Lawyer in American, Jonathan Turley, who is also an avowed liberal, calls the regulation portion of the Obama Administration the fourth branch of Government, and says that it is completely unaccountable to the People, or the Congress. What is your answer to this problem?

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

I never said other administrations have have abused regulatory authority. However, none have done so remotely as much as the current administration. I am sure any reasonable person would agree with this. The "appointed officials" you mentioned under the current administration have either refused to testify, lied, or actively obfuscated at almost ever opportunity, thereby undermining your argument of oversight.

It is very hard to do oversight when virtually every appointed official lies to you as a matter of Administration policy. Examples: "The NSA does not spy on U.S. Citizens." "Healthcare.gov is on track and ready for a successful launch on Oct 1." "The website is just like kayak.com." "No one at the I.R.S. has singled out Conservative groups. Ever." Benghazi was the result of an internet video."


There are dozens of more examples of outright lies under this Administration I could cite that we both know about.

Is this the type of oversight you were mentioning? Your other ideas I like and agree with. Corporate money needs to get out of politics.

If you want to make this into a tit-for-tat partisan fingerpointing exercise then you can do that without my involvement. Neither side has "clean hands" when it comes to avoiding congressional oversight and congress is equally guilty of "playing politics" for purely partisan purposes. That is a complete waste of time and does nothing to find a solution. This is a symptom and not the cause.

If We the People want effective oversight by our representatives then we We the People need to ensure that our representatives are beholden to us and not monied special interests.

 

[eagle1462010]

Those who dont vote are the problem. Do we need a stoplight at Fourth and Main? There are two ways to find out. A costly study that isoften deemed wasteful or citizenry getting involved, storming neighborhood meetings and holding their elected officials accountable. We, as a group, have deferred to lawmakers to tell us what is best. While I tend to think that most want to do the right thing and would come up with good solutions, the best come from the people. Blaming the nameless, faceless always unpopular "them" is flat out lazy.

Over simplified example.

But why the hell not................

1. How is it costly to ask for the DMV to do a computer check at this location to see if it really needs a stop light? Perhaps at this location a recent wreck has caused the death of some members of the community that ever one loved. Causing the neighbors to shout and yell that we need a traffic light.

It was meant to be over-simplified. Do we need a naval base in Italy? I really don't know if it would be better in Italy or Cyprus or Greece or Monaco or Morocco or Spain or France or Albania or where-ever. If I lived near 4th and Main, I could tell you more or less whether one is needed.

I would think the death of anyone whether they are loved or not would spur some sort of action.

As for the question, "how is it costly", it may be or may not be but in every case it would be cheaper to simply ask whoever is there most often (business, home, bus driver, etc...) their opinion.

2. County officials with a limited budget can only afford a few lights in their budget. They have to decide Where to add the traffic lights. So they do a report and find that at this intersection this has been the only Fatal Traffic accident in 2 decades..............Tell the neighbors that it isn't in the funding to put a light there............As they need to put a traffic light in other areas that are possibly getting 1 FATAL ACCIDENT A YEAR instead of a fluke accident at that location.

You're assuming there is an opportunity to tell the neighbors. When I lived in Houston, I took what they called Park and Ride busses. At the time they were considering spending something like a billion dollars on a new rail system that would run from downtown to the shopping district. I went to 2 public meetings. Counting me and the Stenographer, there were 8 people in the audience--there were something like 12 board members. As I recall, some of the 8 were there because it was cold outside and they were homeless. This is the problem.

Since their budget is cut by spending there. 20th and Main doesn't get a traffic light, even though it has 1 fatality a year, and has wrecks there often. But that community didn't protest. Didn't go bat shit crazy as the other.............

So the Mob Won. They pat themselves on the back and say look what we did.............


As the intersection down the road, which needed the light more, continues to kill people at a rate of 1 a year...............

That is the mob. Simple incidents, while tragic, running the show. Instead of looking at reason instead of RULING AND SPENDING BY THE MOMENT.

Which also shows the mentality of the left. Ignoring facts and figures for the Mob mentality.

I knew it would become some sort of partisan nonsense eventually. sigh! And people like you are NEVER to blame...are they?

Yes I threw in partisan Mob rule type tactics. Because they exist. In the heat of the moment people will spend money that might be spent better else where. I believe in making the best decisions with the money they have. I was not comparing data for LARGE tax expenditures but expenditures on the small item of a simple traffic light.

You immediately went large to a transit system budget to counter my argument showing large sums of money spent on something else, instead of smaller sums on lights. I'm thinking the Andy Griffith Show, and your thinking New York City..........

Our Gov't needs to stop thinking, OH it's only this much........Not much in the overall picture. This is the WRONG MENTALITY...........They need to understand that even SMALL expenditures on items eventually add up to Large sums............We need them to be fiscally responsible............but they only suck up to their donors.............

Again, the traffic like is a simple example to a much larger problem. It is an apple's to orange's equation. Our problem is much more significant.

 

[Derideo_Te]

1. Government is more than properly funded.

Facts not in evidence.

2. The Government is issuing more regulations than it has ever done in its history.

3. Government Oversight depends on Government Officials telling the truth. When Government officials routinely lie to the Congress or We the People as a matter of policy, everybody loses and oversight becomes a joke. Again, how can effective oversight occur when these are statements given to the American People....most of them under oath.

"The NSA does not spy on U.S. Citizens." "Healthcare.gov is on track and ready for a successful launch on Oct 1." "The website is just like kayak.com." "No one at the I.R.S. has singled out Conservative groups. Ever." Benghazi was the result of an internet video."

Let me reiterate that if your only purpose is to bash the current the administration then this is a waste of my time. On the other hand if you truly want to come up with a genuine solution then let's focus on that instead.

 

[WelfareQueen]

We the People are the government so we need to hold ourselves accountable for the government we currently have.

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

I never said other administrations have have abused regulatory authority. However, none have done so remotely as much as the current administration. I am sure any reasonable person would agree with this. The "appointed officials" you mentioned under the current administration have either refused to testify, lied, or actively obfuscated at almost ever opportunity, thereby undermining your argument of oversight.

It is very hard to do oversight when virtually every appointed official lies to you as a matter of Administration policy. Examples: "The NSA does not spy on U.S. Citizens." "Healthcare.gov is on track and ready for a successful launch on Oct 1." "The website is just like kayak.com." "No one at the I.R.S. has singled out Conservative groups. Ever." Benghazi was the result of an internet video."


There are dozens of more examples of outright lies under this Administration I could cite that we both know about.

Is this the type of oversight you were mentioning? Your other ideas I like and agree with. Corporate money needs to get out of politics.

If you want to make this into a tit-for-tat partisan fingerpointing exercise then you can do that without my involvement. Neither side has "clean hands" when it comes to avoiding congressional oversight and congress is equally guilty of "playing politics" for purely partisan purposes. That is a complete waste of time and does nothing to find a solution. This is a symptom and not the cause.

If We the People want effective oversight by our representatives then we We the People need to ensure that our representatives are beholden to us and not monied special interests.

I have been agreeing with most of your points. I am not doing a tit for tat. What I am addressing specifically is your claim that the mass of Government regulation is directly accountable to oversight. I have given a number of specific examples where legitimate oversight is impossible when Government officials routinely lie to Congress or WE the People.

 

[WelfareQueen]

The Government is taking in more revenue than it ever has. Revenue is not the problem....spending is. Both parties have responsibility in this area. U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time


The U.S. Government is issuing more regulation under Obama than any President in U.S. History.


"President Obama is “shattering all records” for imposing costly regulations on business, and Senate Democrats’ elimination of the filibuster to oppose presidential nominees will only worsen the problem, U.S. Chamber of Commerce President Thomas J. Donohue said Tuesday."



Chamber chief laments 'avalanche' of Obama regulations - Washington Times


Since you wanted links there you go. Government needs massive reform, we both agree. Oversight is impossible when Government officials lie to Congress and we the people as a matter of administration policy.

 

[occupied]

You are correct imho. I deeply distrust both entities, and they are far too intermingled. So tell me....why do you see Government as a force for good...and business as a force for evil? If both are basically the same, shouldn't each deserve an equal amount of skepticism and distrust?

Because the government at least has the potential to act in the interests of the people and often does. It's when they start acting in the interests of the already powerful that the real problems occur, changing the banking laws to accommodate too-big-to-fail, or failing to prosecute the resultant banking fraud, for instance. They are the only handle the regular person has on the independently powerful for a redress of grievances, without them we might as well just be a feudal society serving the rich as powerless serfs.

Okay...I kinda of agree in a very qualified way...although business can and does occasionally do some good in the community. But your response still doesn't get to the issue of trust.

Why do you implicitly trust Government more than Business? Is it because with Government theoretically you can redress grievances? (Really, only if you have a lot of money, time, and lawyers. You can do the same with business). You can also redress a grievance with business by not shopping with them anymore.

I am not seeing any reason to trust Government any more than business. Both are completely in bed with the other. Neither really gives a shit about the powerless and never has. IMO if liberal leaning folks were as skeptical about Government as the rest of us, America would be a far better place. But to be fair, I applaud liberals regarding their skepticism of big business. That has truly helped America. But the skepticism regarding both entities should be equal. It is certainly equally deserved.

I do not trust the government at all because I believe that we as a people have been betrayed into accepting a plutocracy and calling it capitalism, some even concider it a patriotic duty to allow the financially powerful as much freedom as possible to exploit us, so they will create more jobs I suppose. Look at what happens when people band together to call on the government to do something about the plutocrat problem (OWS), they get the riot police. Now look at what happens when people band together to say hands off big business lower the capital gains, slash corporate taxes and regs, they get congressmen elected. You may put this difference down to other things but to me it is clear that plutocrats only felt threatened by one and were probably responsible for the other.

Now is also a good time to bring up the inexplicable revulsion many conservatives have to the word "democracy", it has to the result of pro plutocracy propaganda. Americans used to treasure the concept and now we have Americans who think of themselves as patriotic almost spitting on it as they shrilly shout that we are a republic, as if that is somehow exclusive of democracy.

That more than anything has convinced me that we may have already lost the battle to have the government we need and instead have the one we deserve for giving up on democracy.

 

[eagle1462010]

The current system is one where government employees are accountable to appointed officials who are subject to congressional oversight and the rule of law. In turn We the People elect congressional representatives.

This alleged "massive abuse of Governmental power" is not unique to the current administration. It was rampant in the prior administration and those that preceded it. Making this into a partisan issue weakens your argument.

If you want to fix the system the answer is a wall of separation between politicians and those with money. Elections must be funded by the taxpayers and each candidate gets exactly the same amount provided they meet a minimum qualification for support. They are banned from using funding of their own and no corporations are allowed to fund advertising or bankroll advocates for a candidate. The voting record of all politicians must be compared to lobbyist interests that had contact with them and no one who has held office must be allowed to work for any corporation that has benefited from any legislation that the politician voted for. This must apply equally to family and all holdings must be open to public scrutiny at all times. The penalty for violations is a minimum 10 year term for all parties involved without parole.

Holy crap, lots of good points in these posts.

Seems to me the challenge is finding the points where government can effectively regulate (and yes, enforce) an efficient set of laws without creating too much of a drag on the dynamics of business. What we seem to do is kneejerk both towards and away from regulation depending on the political climate, and that's creating both holes and redundancies.

In other words, an ineffective mess.

.

Government can be effective when it is properly funded and has the proper oversight. However there has been a systemic attempt to defund government and to deregulate it from being an effective means of control over business. To complain about the current state of government is to blame the symptom and not the cause.

And yes, you are spot on as far as the kneejerk regulation are concerned. This is another symptom of the above. Something happens and the question is asked as to why this was not properly regulated so the attention is focused on that for the short term while the long term dismantling continues apace in other areas.

We the People need to recognize the role that government plays as a useful and effective tool in a civilized society and fund it accordingly. But until we do so we will continue to suffer with the current problems.

Properly funded.....................Just the Feds spend around 3.7 Trillion a year on a budget.............When you add in the State and local expenditures to the system you are looking at 40% of the GDP on Gov't for all levels...........................Leaving only 60% of the private sector to pay the bills, which is exactly why we have to borrow so much money to pay for Gov't.

Charts of Past Spending - UsGovernmentSpending.com

Now get to the interest payments on the debt................

415 BILLION for interest payments for 2013 and continues to rise...........

Government - Interest Expense on the Debt Outstanding

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects that, under current law, debt held by the public will exceed $16 trillion by 2020, reaching nearly 70 percent of GDP. CBO also projects that interest rates will go up. The combination of rising debt and rising interest rates is projected to cause net interest payments to balloon to nearly $800 billion, or 3.4 percent of GDP, by 2020.

CBO | Federal Debt and Interest Costs

 

[Derideo_Te]

I never said other administrations have have abused regulatory authority. However, none have done so remotely as much as the current administration. I am sure any reasonable person would agree with this. The "appointed officials" you mentioned under the current administration have either refused to testify, lied, or actively obfuscated at almost ever opportunity, thereby undermining your argument of oversight.

It is very hard to do oversight when virtually every appointed official lies to you as a matter of Administration policy. Examples: "The NSA does not spy on U.S. Citizens." "Healthcare.gov is on track and ready for a successful launch on Oct 1." "The website is just like kayak.com." "No one at the I.R.S. has singled out Conservative groups. Ever." Benghazi was the result of an internet video."


There are dozens of more examples of outright lies under this Administration I could cite that we both know about.

Is this the type of oversight you were mentioning? Your other ideas I like and agree with. Corporate money needs to get out of politics.

If you want to make this into a tit-for-tat partisan fingerpointing exercise then you can do that without my involvement. Neither side has "clean hands" when it comes to avoiding congressional oversight and congress is equally guilty of "playing politics" for purely partisan purposes. That is a complete waste of time and does nothing to find a solution. This is a symptom and not the cause.

If We the People want effective oversight by our representatives then we We the People need to ensure that our representatives are beholden to us and not monied special interests.

I have been agreeing with most of your points. I am not doing a tit for tat. What I am addressing specifically is your claim that the mass of Government regulation is directly accountable to oversight. I have given a number of specific examples where legitimate oversight is impossible when Government officials routinely lie to Congress or WE the People.

Reagan lied to congress, so did Clinton, Bush jr and Cheney and a host of others. This is not news and is merely throwing up partisan smoke.