Who really "won" WW2? Russia (Soviet Union) or US/Britain?

[CrusaderFrank]

The USSR won and won so much that Patton called the final disposition of Europe a huge strategic failure for the US and the Brits as it left way too much land in the hands of the USSR.

 

[Ringel05]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually Lend Lease was very important for the Soviets- no knock on the Russian people- because they were certainly heroic and their tanks were amongst the best in the world- but Lend Lease kept the Soviets eating- and moving

Don't know if all of this is accurate- but sounds about right


6,430 planes
3,734 tanks
10 mine sweepers
82 smaller boats
210,000 automobiles
3,000 anti aircraft guns
1,111 oerlikon guns
17,000 motor bikes
991 million cartridges
1.2 million Km telephone cable
245,000 military telephones
257 million oil refinery,electrical equipment
5.2 million boots
2 million tons of food (Cited from: Lend Lease to Russia WW2 Military History Forum)

They were happy to get it and it did fill some temporary shortfalls in certain areas but:

Soviet armaments production in Second World War 1939 - 1945.

The two primary items shipped that Stalin wanted more of (and did indeed help the Soviets) was food and raw materials. Food because the Ukraine has always been Russia's bread basket and was occupied by the invading Germans, raw materials because wartime production in the Soviet Union had hit a fever pitch and Stalin wanted to ensure there were no slowdowns.
Remember Stalin had moved almost every factory the Soviets had east of Moscow, he knew that ultimately he and Hitler would end up fighting each other and wanted to protect production.

 

[Syriusly]

The USSR won and won so much that Patton called the final disposition of Europe a huge strategic failure for the US and the Brits as it left way too much land in the hands of the USSR.

Hmmm which country is still in existence?

The U.S. or the USSR?

Pretty convincing argument that we 'won'.

 

[Syriusly]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually Lend Lease was very important for the Soviets- no knock on the Russian people- because they were certainly heroic and their tanks were amongst the best in the world- but Lend Lease kept the Soviets eating- and moving

Don't know if all of this is accurate- but sounds about right


6,430 planes
3,734 tanks
10 mine sweepers
82 smaller boats
210,000 automobiles
3,000 anti aircraft guns
1,111 oerlikon guns
17,000 motor bikes
991 million cartridges
1.2 million Km telephone cable
245,000 military telephones
257 million oil refinery,electrical equipment
5.2 million boots
2 million tons of food (Cited from: Lend Lease to Russia WW2 Military History Forum)

They were happy to get it and it did fill some temporary shortfalls in certain areas but:

Soviet armaments production in Second World War 1939 - 1945.

The two primary items shipped that Stalin wanted more of (and did indeed help the Soviets) was food and raw materials. Food because the Ukraine has always been Russia's bread basket and was occupied by the invading Germans, raw materials because wartime production in the Soviet Union had hit a fever pitch and Stalin wanted to ensure there were no slowdowns.
Remember Stalin had moved almost every factory the Soviets had east of Moscow, he knew that ultimately he and Hitler would end up fighting each other and wanted to protect production.

Oh the Soviets produced lots of stuff- like I said Soviet Armor was probably the best overall in the world in WW2- but Lend Lease kept them alive and kept them moving.

I just get tired of both sides ignoring the contributions made by the other- the Soviets shouldered the majority of combat against Nazi Germany- and also true- Allied Lend Lease shipments contributed to that- not Shermans- but trucks and fuel and food (and boots- 5,000,000,000 pairs of boots)

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The USSR won and won so much that Patton called the final disposition of Europe a huge strategic failure for the US and the Brits as it left way too much land in the hands of the USSR.

Hmmm which country is still in existence?

The U.S. or the USSR?

Pretty convincing argument that we 'won'.

I thought we were discussing WWII

 

[Syriusly]

The USSR won and won so much that Patton called the final disposition of Europe a huge strategic failure for the US and the Brits as it left way too much land in the hands of the USSR.

Hmmm which country is still in existence?

The U.S. or the USSR?

Pretty convincing argument that we 'won'.

I thought we were discussing WWII

Yep- and if there was a winner(a questionable term for so many deaths and so much destruction), it was the United States.

Not only was the United States the most powerful country in the world at the end of the war, we were the only major industrial power with our entire industrial base humming, and our economy dominating.

The Soviets built a house of cards in Eastern Europe- which fell apart without the U.S. having to go to war.

 

[Ringel05]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually Lend Lease was very important for the Soviets- no knock on the Russian people- because they were certainly heroic and their tanks were amongst the best in the world- but Lend Lease kept the Soviets eating- and moving

Don't know if all of this is accurate- but sounds about right


6,430 planes
3,734 tanks
10 mine sweepers
82 smaller boats
210,000 automobiles
3,000 anti aircraft guns
1,111 oerlikon guns
17,000 motor bikes
991 million cartridges
1.2 million Km telephone cable
245,000 military telephones
257 million oil refinery,electrical equipment
5.2 million boots
2 million tons of food (Cited from: Lend Lease to Russia WW2 Military History Forum)

They were happy to get it and it did fill some temporary shortfalls in certain areas but:

Soviet armaments production in Second World War 1939 - 1945.

The two primary items shipped that Stalin wanted more of (and did indeed help the Soviets) was food and raw materials. Food because the Ukraine has always been Russia's bread basket and was occupied by the invading Germans, raw materials because wartime production in the Soviet Union had hit a fever pitch and Stalin wanted to ensure there were no slowdowns.
Remember Stalin had moved almost every factory the Soviets had east of Moscow, he knew that ultimately he and Hitler would end up fighting each other and wanted to protect production.

Oh the Soviets produced lots of stuff- like I said Soviet Armor was probably the best overall in the world in WW2- but Lend Lease kept them alive and kept them moving.

I just get tired of both sides ignoring the contributions made by the other- the Soviets shouldered the majority of combat against Nazi Germany- and also true- Allied Lend Lease shipments contributed to that- not Shermans- but trucks and fuel and food (and boots- 5,000,000,000 pairs of boots)

Wasn't my point, basically it would have taken the Soviets a little longer to finally start driving the Germans back and Lend Lease helped condense that time contributing to an earlier end to the war.
My point was by the time Lend Lease reached the Soviets in any real quantity they were already well on their way to finalizing their counterstrike and had already moved at least a million troops and tones of supplies from the eastern front against Japan west to face the Germans. Their factories were approaching full capacity and they had much of what they needed, but not everything. I'm not trying to play down the contribution Lend Lease had like Stalin did after the war, just saying it wasn't as much of a help or as little a help as some make it out to be.
German reports talk about Soviet troops existing on grass as their primary diet for days at a time and still being able to fight ferociously but mostly it was the food deliveries that did the most good.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually Lend Lease was very important for the Soviets- no knock on the Russian people- because they were certainly heroic and their tanks were amongst the best in the world- but Lend Lease kept the Soviets eating- and moving

Don't know if all of this is accurate- but sounds about right


6,430 planes
3,734 tanks
10 mine sweepers
82 smaller boats
210,000 automobiles
3,000 anti aircraft guns
1,111 oerlikon guns
17,000 motor bikes
991 million cartridges
1.2 million Km telephone cable
245,000 military telephones
257 million oil refinery,electrical equipment
5.2 million boots
2 million tons of food (Cited from: Lend Lease to Russia WW2 Military History Forum)

They were happy to get it and it did fill some temporary shortfalls in certain areas but:

Soviet armaments production in Second World War 1939 - 1945.

The two primary items shipped that Stalin wanted more of (and did indeed help the Soviets) was food and raw materials. Food because the Ukraine has always been Russia's bread basket and was occupied by the invading Germans, raw materials because wartime production in the Soviet Union had hit a fever pitch and Stalin wanted to ensure there were no slowdowns.
Remember Stalin had moved almost every factory the Soviets had east of Moscow, he knew that ultimately he and Hitler would end up fighting each other and wanted to protect production.

Oh the Soviets produced lots of stuff- like I said Soviet Armor was probably the best overall in the world in WW2- but Lend Lease kept them alive and kept them moving.

I just get tired of both sides ignoring the contributions made by the other- the Soviets shouldered the majority of combat against Nazi Germany- and also true- Allied Lend Lease shipments contributed to that- not Shermans- but trucks and fuel and food (and boots- 5,000,000,000 pairs of boots)

All of which was great, but did not keep the Soviets alive. They would have won if it took ten years, which is what all the Lend Lease folks are ignoring. They would not have given up.

With the Soviets typing up the Germany troops, the invasions of North Africa, Sicily, and western Europe were made possible.

The war created the two greatest powers the world has ever seen.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Ringel05 has the right of it, guys.

 

[Oldstyle]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually the two things that we sent them that they really appreciated were locomotives and trucks, Ringel! We provided thousands of locomotives and rail cars by the tens of thousands. We provided several hundred thousand trucks. It's all well and good to produce materials in factories to the east of Moscow but if you can't move them to where they were needed then of what use are they?

 

[Ringel05]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually the two things that we sent them that they really appreciated were locomotives and trucks, Ringel! We provided thousands of locomotives and rail cars by the tens of thousands. We provided several hundred thousand trucks. It's all well and good to produce materials in factories to the east of Moscow but if you can't move them to where they were needed then of what use are they?

like I clarified in a later post I wasn't trying to do a Stalin and almost completely discount Lend Lease, I was simply showing that some overstate just as some understate.
Ya might want to read those posts.

 

[rightwinger]

The Soviets defeated Hitler

The US defeated Japan

 

[JakeStarkey]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually the two things that we sent them that they really appreciated were locomotives and trucks, Ringel! We provided thousands of locomotives and rail cars by the tens of thousands. We provided several hundred thousand trucks. It's all well and good to produce materials in factories to the east of Moscow but if you can't move them to where they were needed then of what use are they?

Nice assertions but mean nothing if you can prove they were not moving sufficient gear in the first place. The fact is, they were. I saved you the research. With LL, they were able to move it faster.

 

[Oldstyle]

The biggest problem that the Soviets had at the beginning of World War II was that Stalin had decimated the Soviet Officer Corps with a series of purges that killed most of the senior staff. Many historians view the military pact between the Soviets and Germany as an attempt by Stalin to buy time because he realized that his military was woefully unprepared to go to war with Hitler.

 

[MarathonMike]

Agree with Figaro that the Soviets deserve credit due to their sheer will and enormous sacrifice. German arrogance also factored as they assumed an easy victory and did not prepare for a brutal winter that sealed their defeat.

 

[xdangerousxdavex]

we just keep forgetting to keep our victories in our pocket...

What do you mean? Someone stole our victory? Soviet Union fought more, suffered more, and finally won. Second Front was opened just in the end of WWII.

 

[quorthon]

English, American and Soviet army all fought together and contained the Nazi predator. Without any of the sides of the union the war would be lost or prolonged and then would bring more deaths and heartache for the next generations.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The war certainly would have been prolonged.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Japan-Germany are doing a lot better than UK-USA.

Seems historically valid, countries which lose wars often do better in the long-term than the victors. Ancient Rome won war after war until it collapsed. See USA heading that route now.

When you win the war, you're expected to be magnanimous and rebuild the loser. That's expensive. Meanwhile, the loser does extremely well being given grants and gifts to rebuild and not seek war again by the global community. Meantime, the victor already in debt for the war proper isn't getting those same handouts and just going further into debt.

 

[rightwinger]

The western Nazi air forces were not scheduled for the Eastern Offensive.

You would be better making the argument that the German military forces would have been better off taking Gibralter through Span and Malta with Italy before moving to the Middle East.

With all due respect, Jake...without "Lend Lease" from the West...it's highly doubtful that the Soviets would have driven the Germans back.

Not really true. By the time Lend-Lease supplies finally reached the Soviet Union, they were well on their way to supplying themselves. They didn't like our Shermans, used them for cannon fodder and to protect non threatened areas. The two things we sent them they really appreciated was Spam and Jeeps.

Actually Lend Lease was very important for the Soviets- no knock on the Russian people- because they were certainly heroic and their tanks were amongst the best in the world- but Lend Lease kept the Soviets eating- and moving

Don't know if all of this is accurate- but sounds about right


6,430 planes
3,734 tanks
10 mine sweepers
82 smaller boats
210,000 automobiles
3,000 anti aircraft guns
1,111 oerlikon guns
17,000 motor bikes
991 million cartridges
1.2 million Km telephone cable
245,000 military telephones
257 million oil refinery,electrical equipment
5.2 million boots
2 million tons of food (Cited from: Lend Lease to Russia WW2 Military History Forum)

The Soviets did most of the fighting against the Nazis in WWII. I think the major role of the west was not so much lend lease but bombing the shit out of German industries and denying the Germans the equipment they needed to fight the Soviets

The Germans lost alot more equipment through bombing raids than we gave the Soviets