Who Are The Palestinians?

[Phoenall]

The time limit on right of return ran out when the Palestinians stated NO JEWS.

Except...they never said "no Jews".

Nice bit of fiction though

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

 

[Coyote]

I already gave my sources for this.

Sorry, but wikipedia is not a legitimate source. As said above, bring in academic, sourced evidence, otherwise, you are no more credible than any of the hacks coming from scum holes like electronicintifada.

Refute the points. Wikipedia is perfectly good source in that it lists primary sources including books which aren't available on line. It also has discussion areas so you know who is doing what and it points out articles that are insufficiently sourced or bias.

No it doesn't, the authors of the articles use the sources that suit their POV, that is why I look for the original author and were his/her loyalties lie.

Except for two things. Authors represent multiple points of view and - you can assess the sources yourself and track them back by doing your own research.

 

[Coyote]

The time limit on right of return ran out when the Palestinians stated NO JEWS.

Except...they never said "no Jews".

Nice bit of fiction though

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

I'm starting to understanding what you mean when you say you support a "two state solution"

......One Arab, and after the destruction of the Jewish state you hate ,l another one Arab.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

I'm starting to understanding what you mean when you say you support a "two state solution"

......One Arab, and after the destruction of the Jewish state you hate ,l another one Arab.

Nope, as usual...you don't. Let me help you.

Two states. Seperate. Israel. Palestine. Details to be negotiated between Israel (a Jewish majority state) and Palestine.

 

[Kondor3]

...They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state...

Your Honor, the Prosecution rests.

 

[Kondor3]

Two states. Seperate. Israel. Palestine. Details to be negotiated between Israel (a Jewish majority state) and Palestine.

The window of opportunity for such a solution has long-since closed, The Palestinians themselves closed it, decades ago. Consequently, the Reconquista continues apace.

 

[MJB12741]

The time limit on right of return ran out when the Palestinians stated NO JEWS.

Except...they never said "no Jews".

Nice bit of fiction though

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

The time limit on right of return ran out when the Palestinians stated NO JEWS.

Except...they never said "no Jews".

Nice bit of fiction though

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

Figures. So let us get this straight. You don't care to read the Hamas charter because you don't feel Hamas is "a legitimate governing entity." And yet the Palestinian people themselves elected Hamas as their legitimate governing entity. So rather than deal with reality, you prefer to just ignore it. Is that correct?

 

[aris2chat]

...They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state...

Your Honor, the Prosecution rests.

On giant black billboards with large white writing in arabic

 

[P F Tinmore]

Coyote, et al,

Part of the problem with the Israeli-Palestinian Discussion, is that we (as a group) tend to move back and forth across the timeline as if what happened a half-century, century, millennium, or several millennia ago, has some significant relevance to todays critical issues in the region. While interesting, often it is not a basis for any claim other than establishment of a historical connection. This was something the Allied Powers understood at San Remo, and understand today.

You can talk about a "nation" as in a species or a group of people. You can talk about a nation as in a nation-state. When you talk about the Jewish Nation, you are talking a people. When you are talking about Israel you are talking about a nation-state. Do you understand the difference and can you apply that difference to this discussion in a logical manner?

(COMMENT)

There is something important to grasp here; and an important question to answer.

Did the Allied Powers (nearly a century ago) adjudicate 97% of the territory exclusively to the "Arab nations" of Syria, Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq), and later, (Hashemite Kingdom) Jordan?
Was an unspecified portion of the geographic region, known as Palestine, designated by the Allied Powers, as the Jewish National Home, to be reconstituted there in consideration of the historical connection of the Jewish people to the land?

– Fatah movement considered San Remo Conference in 1920 the root of all Palestinian catastrophes and sufferings, in its statement for the Mobilization and Organization Commission published on Monday marking the 25th anniversary of the conference.

In San Remo conference, the principal allied powers of World War I agreed to entrust the administration of Palestine to the British Mandatory which will be responsible for putting into effect the Belford Declaration of the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.

“It’s not strange that Zionist gangs considered San Remo Conference as the ‘Magna Carta’ of the Jews; reference to the famous British charter by which most monarchy authority were omitted, which was supported by Britain, France, Italy and Japan, the statement said.

It added that the increase in number of countries recognizing the Palestinian state indicates the righteousness of our cause, and out right in self-determination.

Fatah called on US, Israel’s main ally, Britain, the international community and the world’s human rights to end Israeli aggression against Palestinians and to recognize the Palestinian state within 1967 boarders before September entitlement.

R.Q./F.R.

SOURCE: Palestinian News & Information Agency

The Palestinian claim here is that the "the root of all Palestinian catastrophes and sufferings" of the Palestinians today rests with the decisions made more than nine decades ago. I oppose this positions, and claim that "the root of all Palestinian catastrophes and sufferings" is a direct result of the Arab Palestinian inability to assimilate and adopt the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. They have consistently aborted any attempt to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel and Jordan. They have been and continue to be a threat to regional peace.

• Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.
• There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
• Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.
• The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.

For your reference, this is the statement that we've been discussing: " Absolutely correct. The UN did not "create Israel." Israel has existed for thousnds of years before there was any UN. And who said Tinmore never gets it right?"

(COMMENT)

The UN did not create any countries; this is true. We can say the because the General Assembly is not in that business. The Population creates a country. The Jewish People created and successfully defended their nation state and right to self determination (which is not an exclusive right to the Palestinians).

But what was the "intent" (a resolve to do --- or --- forbear a particular act) of the Powers? There is no question that in 1920, the Allied Powers had the intent to allow the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people (reconstituting their national home in that country)," and to "secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home."

Similarly, the Allied Powers and General Assembly of 1947 (PART I - Future constitution and government of Palestine --- A. TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE), let it be known that an "Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below."

Israel ceased to exist thousands of years ago. What we call Israel today is a modern invention - not an ancient state. There are a lot of people who had nations attached to them at various points in history and who exist now within other states as a people but not a nation-state. Has Kurdistan existed for centuries? How about Circassia? The people are there. They have their identity. But any nation long ago ceased to exist.

(COMMENT)

Yes, today's Israel is merely a "reconstitution" of an ancient State (so very true). This has been stated many different ways, but in essence, other than the historical conncetion, it has no relevance to the Independent Jewish State of Israel that exist today. The ancient state has been overtaken by events just as the Arab control has been over taken by events. Neither the Arab People or the Jewish People have a valid territorial claim beyond that which has been fought over and established in contemporary times. Great history, but not statutory.

So, speaking of "hatred" - can you come up with anything to support your claims or should I assume this is just more empty bloviating on your part?

(COMMENT)

There are very few 100 Year Wars that have not instilled misgivings between the Parties. There is animosity on both sides. Currently, The General Assembly Condemns all forms of propaganda, in whatsoever country conducted, which is either designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression (A/RES/2/110); just as Article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights prohibits propaganda for war and conflict as a matter of law. Yet, either side can come up with any number of examples were each has violated this rule. Neither side has clean hands. Yet, it always come back to the Palestinian Claims that they have been wronged (victim, the injured party) and will never give-up the struggle and Jihad. Hatred is a natural outcome of conflicts with this duration. And since the Arab Palestinians have a devoted program to teach conflict to its children, it will remain so.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Two states. Seperate. Israel. Palestine. Details to be negotiated between Israel (a Jewish majority state) and Palestine.

The window of opportunity for such a solution has long-since closed, The Palestinians themselves closed it, decades ago. Consequently, the Reconquista continues apace.

Disagree Mr. Pessimistic Conquista

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Figures. So let us get this straight. You don't care to read the Hamas charter because you don't feel Hamas is "a legitimate governing entity." And yet the Palestinian people themselves elected Hamas as their legitimate governing entity. So rather than deal with reality, you prefer to just ignore it. Is that correct?

Mod Edit: Please take this stuff to the Flame Zone.

"Zone 2": Political Forum / Israel and Palestine Forum / Race Relations/Racism Forum / Religion & Ethics Forum: Baiting and polarizing OP's (Opening Posts), and thread titles risk the thread either being moved or trashed. Keep it relevant, choose wisely. Each post must contain content relevant to the thread subject, in addition to any flame. No trolling. No hit and run flames. No hijacking or derailing threads.

 

[Coyote]

Except...they never said "no Jews".

Nice bit of fiction though

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

Except...they never said "no Jews".

Nice bit of fiction though

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

Figures. So let us get this straight. You don't care to read the Hamas charter because you don't feel Hamas is "a legitimate governing entity." And yet the Palestinian people themselves elected Hamas as their legitimate governing entity. So rather than deal with reality, you prefer to just ignore it. Is that correct?

No I do not. Hamas has not held election in how long - 6 years? And, Aris, I believe pointed out that Hamas DID NOT win the popular vote. Hamas has yet to recognize Israel's right to exist and their actions have shown that they have no interest in negotiating for peace.

 

[aris2chat]

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day

Who's charter?

The Palestinians that also includes the one by hamas and the one by fatah

The Palestinians don't have a charter. Hamas does and Fatah and the PLO do.

Charters Constitutions - FATEH Constitution

Neither Fateh nor the PLO call for a nation with no Jews. Fateh's Constitution calls for "Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city, and protecting the citizens' legal and equal rights without any racial or religious discrimination.". The Constitution references fighting Zionism and Imperialism. Unfortunately with Arafat's death, the PLO charter did not get amended. They still call for the destruction of Israel, as a state - but not for the creation of a nation with NO JEWS. The above in Fatah's constitution seems to support that.

I didn't read through Hamas' because I don't think much of Hamas as a legitimate governing entity.

Figures. So let us get this straight. You don't care to read the Hamas charter because you don't feel Hamas is "a legitimate governing entity." And yet the Palestinian people themselves elected Hamas as their legitimate governing entity. So rather than deal with reality, you prefer to just ignore it. Is that correct?

No I do not. Hamas has not held election in how long - 6 years? And, Aris, I believe pointed out that Hamas DID NOT win the popular vote. Hamas has yet to recognize Israel's right to exist and their actions have shown that they have no interest in negotiating for peace.

Actually, it has been almost 9 yrs now and with the unity collapse it will be even longer before another takes place.

 

[MJB12741]

Thank goodness Palestinians won't unite among themselves for a unity government to force Israel to have to placate their endless demands. Not too bright are they?

 

[aris2chat]

Thank goodness Palestinians won't unite among themselves for a unity government to force Israel to have to placate their endless demands. Not too bright are they?

Trying to anger Israel enough for another battle so the world sees palestinians are victims and forces them into granting statehood.......and more donations.
It still won't do much for a unity government for the palestinians but it would boost Hamas' sagging image and make Israel look like the aggressors for defending themselves.
It is not who wins the ground war but who wins the perception war.
Statehood, or recognition, will not stop the attacks by palestinians. It will not bring peace. Hamas and groups like IJ will go on attacking Israel and killing Israels.

 

[Kondor3]

Two states. Seperate. Israel. Palestine. Details to be negotiated between Israel (a Jewish majority state) and Palestine.

The window of opportunity for such a solution has long-since closed, The Palestinians themselves closed it, decades ago. Consequently, the Reconquista continues apace.

Disagree Mr. Pessimistic Conquista

Yeah, I know - whether folks believe it or not, there is a part of me that wishes that this were not true - that peaceful coexistence between the Israelis and Palestinians was still possible, but - and this is pure personal opinion - I think that possibility died a quiet, lonely death, quite some time ago.

Am I positive? Of course not. Do I believe it? Yes. Do I perceive realistic and likely reasons for that belief? Yes.

And IF peaceful coexistence is no longer possible, then one side or the other is gonna have to go.

And, because extermination would be an unforgivable sin and crime against God and Man...

That doesn't leave anything other than mass relocation of one side or the other.

IF we are left with nothing better than relocation, then the weaker side will be the one to go.

That's all based upon the premise that peaceful coexistence is now virtually impossible.

If I'm right, then everything I've said beyond that point is both logical and nearly inevitable.

 

[Coyote]

Two states. Seperate. Israel. Palestine. Details to be negotiated between Israel (a Jewish majority state) and Palestine.

The window of opportunity for such a solution has long-since closed, The Palestinians themselves closed it, decades ago. Consequently, the Reconquista continues apace.

Disagree Mr. Pessimistic Conquista

Yeah, I know - whether folks believe it or not, there is a part of me that wishes that this were not true - that peaceful coexistence between the Israelis and Palestinians was still possible, but - and this is pure personal opinion - I think that possibility died a quiet, lonely death, quite some time ago.

Am I positive? Of course not. Do I believe it? Yes. Do I perceive realistic and likely reasons for that belief? Yes.

And IF peaceful coexistence is no longer possible, then one side or the other is gonna have to go.

And, because extermination would be an unforgivable sin and crime against God and Man...

That doesn't leave anything other than mass relocation of one side or the other.

IF we are left with nothing better than relocation, then the weaker side will be the one to go.

That's all based upon the premise that peaceful coexistence is now virtually impossible.

If I'm right, then everything I've said beyond that point is both logical and nearly inevitable.

Or a Berlin Wall...or seperation like N S Korea. I think forced relocation of huge numbers of people is the least likely outcome

 

[Mindful]

Well no. It hasn't "existed for thousands of years". It totally ceased to exist thousands of years ago and was only recreated in modern times.

You pro-terrorist antisemites can say anything you want, but that does not change the truth of the matter, namely that the Jewish nation has existed for over three millennia and Jewish presence on the land extends for that entire time. The nation-state of Israel did not always exist on the land in question, but the nation of Jewish people have a written history going back over three thousand.

It is only because you are such a filthy, double-talking hater of Jews that you pursue all this pro-terrorist crap of yours.

Let's talk about "truth" (never mind the fact that you have yet to substantiate any of your accusations).

We are talking about Israel. The nation. Have you figured that part out yet? Go back and read the pertinent posts if you are confused. Israel ceased to exist thousands of years ago. It's an ancient Kingdom that is long gone. In that regard - it's like a lot of ancient kingdoms that are gone but who's people remain.

This isn't rocket science dude.

You'd have nothing against the Assyrians getting their ancient Kingdom back?

 

[Coyote]

Well no. It hasn't "existed for thousands of years". It totally ceased to exist thousands of years ago and was only recreated in modern times.

You pro-terrorist antisemites can say anything you want, but that does not change the truth of the matter, namely that the Jewish nation has existed for over three millennia and Jewish presence on the land extends for that entire time. The nation-state of Israel did not always exist on the land in question, but the nation of Jewish people have a written history going back over three thousand.

It is only because you are such a filthy, double-talking hater of Jews that you pursue all this pro-terrorist crap of yours.

Let's talk about "truth" (never mind the fact that you have yet to substantiate any of your accusations).

We are talking about Israel. The nation. Have you figured that part out yet? Go back and read the pertinent posts if you are confused. Israel ceased to exist thousands of years ago. It's an ancient Kingdom that is long gone. In that regard - it's like a lot of ancient kingdoms that are gone but who's people remain.

This isn't rocket science dude.

You'd have nothing against the Assyrians getting their ancient Kingdom back?

I'm not sure what your point is. If they want to try and get it back - why not? Anyone has a right to try. But ancient history and kingdoms long ago gone do not automatically entitle people to modern lands over the rights of the indiginous people currently living there.