Who Are The Palestinians?
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Dogmaphobe
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I realize your hatred of Jews blinds you to all else, but a nation of people and a nation-state are different concepts.
Speaking of which, the terrorist group you support did not exist as one until they were invented quite intentionally just a few decades ago, and NEVER existed as the other.
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Your link only shows that the ancient kingdoms of Israel were destroyed. Not that they ceased to exist as you claim. Gaza was just recently destroyed. Does Gaza no longer exist?
montelatici
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Now, that's what I call grasping at straws. LOL
You can talk about a "nation" as in a species or a group of people. You can talk about a nation as in a nation-state. When you talk about the Jewish Nation, you are talking a people. When you are talking about Israel you are talking about a nation-state. Do you understand the difference and can you apply that difference to this discussion in a logical manner?
For your reference, this is the statement that we've been discussing: " Absolutely correct. The UN did not "create Israel." Israel has existed for thousnds of years before there was any UN. And who said Tinmore never gets it right?"
Israel ceased to exist thousands of years ago. What we call Israel today is a modern invention - not an ancient state. There are a lot of people who had nations attached to them at various points in history and who exist now within other states as a people but not a nation-state. Has Kurdistan existed for centuries? How about Circassia? The people are there. They have their identity. But any nation long ago ceased to exist.
So, speaking of "hatred" - can you come up with anything to support your claims or should I assume this is just more empty bloviating on your part?
Apparently.
Are you claiming that all the ancient kingdoms and states that ever were continue to exist? If so, then so has the realm of reality.
aris2chat
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Penelope
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I don't get it.
Humanity
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True....Israel - A modern invention....
A modern invention - emulating - and with a heritage stretching back to - the first 'Israel'...
Kicking the ass of Rump Palestine - the modern invention state-wannabe-that-never-was...
Not all modern inventions are winners, like the Israelis...
Some are losers, like the so-called Palestinians... clueless, incompetent savages, who need to be moved out of the way - for their own safety, and for the sake of peace and quiet.
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RoccoR
Gold Member
Coyote, et al,
Part of the problem with the Israeli-Palestinian Discussion, is that we (as a group) tend to move back and forth across the timeline as if what happened a half-century, century, millennium, or several millennia ago, has some significant relevance to todays critical issues in the region. While interesting, often it is not a basis for any claim other than establishment of a historical connection. This was something the Allied Powers understood at San Remo, and understand today.
There is something important to grasp here; and an important question to answer.
Did the Allied Powers (nearly a century ago) adjudicate 97% of the territory exclusively to the "Arab nations" of Syria, Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq), and later, (Hashemite Kingdom) Jordan?
Was an unspecified portion of the geographic region, known as Palestine, designated by the Allied Powers, as the Jewish National Home, to be reconstituted there in consideration of the historical connection of the Jewish people to the land?
The Palestinian claim here is that the "the root of all Palestinian catastrophes and sufferings" of the Palestinians today rests with the decisions made more than nine decades ago. I oppose this positions, and claim that "the root of all Palestinian catastrophes and sufferings" is a direct result of the Arab Palestinian inability to assimilate and adopt the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. They have consistently aborted any attempt to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel and Jordan. They have been and continue to be a threat to regional peace.
The UN did not create any countries; this is true. We can say the because the General Assembly is not in that business. The Population creates a country. The Jewish People created and successfully defended their nation state and right to self determination (which is not an exclusive right to the Palestinians).
But what was the "intent" (a resolve to do --- or --- forbear a particular act) of the Powers? There is no question that in 1920, the Allied Powers had the intent to allow the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people (reconstituting their national home in that country)," and to "secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home."
Similarly, the Allied Powers and General Assembly of 1947 (PART I - Future constitution and government of Palestine --- A. TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE), let it be known that an "Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below."
Yes, today's Israel is merely a "reconstitution" of an ancient State (so very true). This has been stated many different ways, but in essence, other than the historical conncetion, it has no relevance to the Independent Jewish State of Israel that exist today. The ancient state has been overtaken by events just as the Arab control has been over taken by events. Neither the Arab People or the Jewish People have a valid territorial claim beyond that which has been fought over and established in contemporary times. Great history, but not statutory.
There are very few 100 Year Wars that have not instilled misgivings between the Parties. There is animosity on both sides. Currently, The General Assembly Condemns all forms of propaganda, in whatsoever country conducted, which is either designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression (A/RES/2/110); just as Article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights prohibits propaganda for war and conflict as a matter of law. Yet, either side can come up with any number of examples were each has violated this rule. Neither side has clean hands. Yet, it always come back to the Palestinian Claims that they have been wronged (victim, the injured party) and will never give-up the struggle and Jihad. Hatred is a natural outcome of conflicts with this duration. And since the Arab Palestinians have a devoted program to teach conflict to its children, it will remain so.
Most Respectfully,
R
Part of the problem with the Israeli-Palestinian Discussion, is that we (as a group) tend to move back and forth across the timeline as if what happened a half-century, century, millennium, or several millennia ago, has some significant relevance to todays critical issues in the region. While interesting, often it is not a basis for any claim other than establishment of a historical connection. This was something the Allied Powers understood at San Remo, and understand today.
(COMMENT)
There is something important to grasp here; and an important question to answer.
Did the Allied Powers (nearly a century ago) adjudicate 97% of the territory exclusively to the "Arab nations" of Syria, Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq), and later, (Hashemite Kingdom) Jordan?
Was an unspecified portion of the geographic region, known as Palestine, designated by the Allied Powers, as the Jewish National Home, to be reconstituted there in consideration of the historical connection of the Jewish people to the land?
RAMALLAH said:
The Palestinian claim here is that the "the root of all Palestinian catastrophes and sufferings" of the Palestinians today rests with the decisions made more than nine decades ago. I oppose this positions, and claim that "the root of all Palestinian catastrophes and sufferings" is a direct result of the Arab Palestinian inability to assimilate and adopt the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. They have consistently aborted any attempt to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel and Jordan. They have been and continue to be a threat to regional peace.
- Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.
- There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
- Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.
- The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
(COMMENT)
The UN did not create any countries; this is true. We can say the because the General Assembly is not in that business. The Population creates a country. The Jewish People created and successfully defended their nation state and right to self determination (which is not an exclusive right to the Palestinians).
But what was the "intent" (a resolve to do --- or --- forbear a particular act) of the Powers? There is no question that in 1920, the Allied Powers had the intent to allow the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people (reconstituting their national home in that country)," and to "secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home."
Similarly, the Allied Powers and General Assembly of 1947 (PART I - Future constitution and government of Palestine --- A. TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE), let it be known that an "Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below."
(COMMENT)
Yes, today's Israel is merely a "reconstitution" of an ancient State (so very true). This has been stated many different ways, but in essence, other than the historical conncetion, it has no relevance to the Independent Jewish State of Israel that exist today. The ancient state has been overtaken by events just as the Arab control has been over taken by events. Neither the Arab People or the Jewish People have a valid territorial claim beyond that which has been fought over and established in contemporary times. Great history, but not statutory.
(COMMENT)
There are very few 100 Year Wars that have not instilled misgivings between the Parties. There is animosity on both sides. Currently, The General Assembly Condemns all forms of propaganda, in whatsoever country conducted, which is either designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression (A/RES/2/110); just as Article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights prohibits propaganda for war and conflict as a matter of law. Yet, either side can come up with any number of examples were each has violated this rule. Neither side has clean hands. Yet, it always come back to the Palestinian Claims that they have been wronged (victim, the injured party) and will never give-up the struggle and Jihad. Hatred is a natural outcome of conflicts with this duration. And since the Arab Palestinians have a devoted program to teach conflict to its children, it will remain so.
Most Respectfully,
R
Last edited:
P F Tinmore
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She is still around.
Then there are Palestinians who take a different approach.
Rafeef Ziadah
Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day
Read their charter and you will see it there plain as day
Who's charter?
And they were not given a box of self determination when it happened were they. Nor was it handed over in an envelope round the back of a tent and told to use it. No it was something they already had and just had to exercise in sufficient amounts so that the LoN would give them full recognition at a later date. This led to the countries getting full independence in 1949. The Palestinians have shown their free determination many times, first when they allowed Jordan to take over the west bank and rule them. Then again when they decided to overthrow the King of Jordan and turn Jordan and the west bank into a sharia dictatorship. Then when Jordan showed them the error of their ways they exercised their free determination again and tried the same in Lebanon. Were they faced the same lessons from the Lebanese and withdrew from the field. Then in 1988 the Palestinians again exercised their free determination and declared independence under the terms of UN res 181 but did not declare any borders. Every time they decide to attack Israel they are exercising free determination, every time they refuse to negotiate they are exercising free determination.
YOU CANT BE HANDED FREE DETERMINATION ON A PLATE, IT IS THERE FOR THE TAKING AND YOU JUST NEED TO GRAB IT WHILE YOU CAN. BUT WITH FREE DETERMINATION COMES RESPONCIBILITIES AND ONE OF THOSE IS ABIDING BY THE TREATIES THAT YOU HAVE SIGNED AND THE UN CHARTER
No it doesn't, the authors of the articles use the sources that suit their POV, that is why I look for the original author and were his/her loyalties lie.
True the arab league were to blame when they took it away from them in 1948, and they did not exercise it fully for another 40 years.
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