Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Shusha]

So. Show me where the distinction is made in her post. In the meantime, I'll use YOUR logic and assume that Tinmore doesn't really have issues against Jews but only "Zionists".

Tinmore: Its permissible, even honorable, to kill children because they are Jewish and present.

Hollie: The indoctrination and exploitation of people, including children, which encourages, celebrates, rewards and glorifies killing innocent people in mass attacks while committing suicide is a vile ideology which has a source in Islam.

And you can't see the difference?

 

[Coyote]

So, Adomit feels Muslims have a vile ideology (unless he is only referring to terrorist extremists and that wasn't the impression I got) - they there fore, in entirety, are a vile group? There is no difference between that and Tinmore who seems to feel all Jews a vile. None.

I have no idea how admonit feels about Muslims as a whole.

But I also think its not as easy to distinguish as you think it is. For example, I find a whole bunch of Xtian ideological and theological ideas to be quite vile. Does that mean I see Xtians as a "vile group". Does that mean I'm against Xtians?

I haven't heard you argue vis a vis Christians, but when you argue you hit on specific ideologies and actions, not groups. I do not see that from Holly or Admit.

Oh I think there are plenty of vile ideas in Islam too. Glorification of death definitely being one of them.

Not sure that is totally Islamic - they all have a martyr mentality. The worst issue I have with Islam is that too many in Muslim majority countries still believe in an outdated view of the world. The other Abrahamic faiths have adjusted their views on women etc away from a literal reading of the scriptures.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Shusha
Yeah, the avatar thing is annoying. Just saying.

Why not just hit the reply button and the post you are responding to automatically appears? Easier even than pasting the avatar.

The problem with the button is that it hides even relatively small messages.

Take a look at your previous post (15158)... We can't even see what Coyote said.

But OK.... I will return to the good, old "Originally..."

At least in "normal" messages... (not OPs).

​

 

[Coyote]

So. Show me where the distinction is made in her post. In the meantime, I'll use YOUR logic and assume that Tinmore doesn't really have issues against Jews but only "Zionists".

Tinmore: Its permissible, even honorable, to kill children because they are Jewish and present.

Hollie: The indoctrination and exploitation of people, including children, which encourages, celebrates, rewards and glorifies killing innocent people in mass attacks while committing suicide is a vile ideology which has a source in Islam.

And you can't see the difference?

It is rather difficult to "see the difference" when you create a quote from Tinmore (based on your reading of what his views are) and then quote literally from Hollie with no personal interpretation.

Try this:
Tinmore: Its permissible, even honorable, to kill children because they are Jewish and present.

Hollie: Islam - a religion which indoctrinates and exploits people, including children, which encourages, celebrates, rewards and glorifies killing innocent people in mass attacks while committing suicide is a vile ideology.

She will go on about how Mohammed was a pedo and Islam is a religion of pedophilia if given a chance as well.

She is not separating out extremists - she was very clear.

 

[Shusha]

No...it isn't a lie, you are jumping to unintended meanings. You are right it's not "total separation" but it is none the less a separation that has a consequence of less casual social interaction particularly for those Palestinians who do not live or work in Jewish areas. It's left a mixed legacy. I drew my comment from two articles I read,, one was this and the other I can no longer find but dealt with how increased separation of two cultures made it more easy to believe the worst of each other. Take it or leave it

Ariel Sharon's Legacy of Separation

Wait, so not total separation and the Palestinians who have less casual social interaction are the ones who don't LIVE or WORK in Jewish areas.

Thank you for proving my point. There is no separation in Israel. (Though, there are no Jews to interact with in "Palestine".)

If you don't want me to jump to your "unintended meanings", you need to be more careful about what you write in your rush to blame Israel.

 

[Coyote]

So, the dynamics at play in the actions of Islamic terrorists in a disgusting drama where children are used as war material are as follows: The terrorist thugs in the PA / Hamas know that Israelis cherish life, especially that of a child. They know that for Israelis, the first instinct is to trust kids, therefore increasing the chances of a kid being able to smuggle bombs and weapons (sometimes with instructions to use them) through Israeli checkpoints. They exploit the warped innocence of these young people, who are raised to hold up death and murder as lofty ideals. And for these vile people, the prospects of possibly murdering Israelis outweighs putting a kid's life in danger by placing him or her in close proximity to high explosives.

But are all Palestinian children raised to hold death and murder as lofty ideals? Most? When I've read interviews with kids, a good many aspire to be doctors, lawyers, to be able to help their people. When there are pictures of "Jihadi camps" it seems to be the same old pictures recycled. I don't doubt they exist but are they that prevalent? Again - no one examines that and no one examines the how people really feel about issues.

This is where I am frustrated. I am frustrated (and frankly, angry) when people insist to Jews that Jews are really just imagining things when they see a vile ideology, especially a vile ideology directed at Jews.

"Oh its just a few bad apples. Its not like children are REALLY indoctrinated and exploited."

There are two sides to every issue and you are attempting to claim otherwise - that if one points out that there is another side one is automatically blaming the jews.

And frankly - some of the pro-Israeli media is as dishonest as the Pro-Palestinian media. A perfect example are the claims that about Palestinian textbooks when (shock) Israeli textbooks are also pretty biased - or, look at how Nakhba is handled.

Which versions are accurate Shusha?

There are NOT two sides to every issue. And sometimes is dangerous to think so. (I read a great article about this not long ago, but can't find it just now.)

One of the reasons why it is dangerous is for exactly what you are attempting to do here: minimize, reduce, push aside, claim something isn't real or isn't really happening. Its rejecting reality, specifically rejecting the reality of the target, which is gaslighting.

I do not agree - there are always multiple sides. That doesn't mean both sides and their arguments are equal, but to say there aren't two sides is to totally reject the other and to totally accept the dominant narrative even though sometimes that narrative is wrong.

Actually....I can think of things where there are NOT two sides that have legitimacy, and I guess those are things that deal with moral imperatives (if that is the correct term).

Targeting and killling innocent people, particularly children.
Genocide.

There are probably others. But if you are talking about the overall I/P conflict - a broad and complex issue, then yes there are two sides.

 

[Shusha]

Originally posted by Shusha
Yeah, the avatar thing is annoying. Just saying.

Why not just hit the reply button and the post you are responding to automatically appears? Easier even than pasting the avatar.

The problem with the button is that it hides even relatively small messages.

Take a look at your previous post (15158)... We can't even see what Coyote said.

But OK.... I will return to the good, old "Originally..."

At least in "normal" messages... (not OPs).

​

If you just keep hitting reply, it will bring up everything and re-post it.

At the bottom of the reply box it says, "click to expand". That will bring up all the previous replies so you can see and follow everything.

 

[Coyote]

No...it isn't a lie, you are jumping to unintended meanings. You are right it's not "total separation" but it is none the less a separation that has a consequence of less casual social interaction particularly for those Palestinians who do not live or work in Jewish areas. It's left a mixed legacy. I drew my comment from two articles I read,, one was this and the other I can no longer find but dealt with how increased separation of two cultures made it more easy to believe the worst of each other. Take it or leave it

Ariel Sharon's Legacy of Separation

Wait, so not total separation and the Palestinians who have less casual social interaction are the ones who don't LIVE or WORK in Jewish areas.

Thank you for proving my point. There is no separation in Israel. (Though, there are no Jews to interact with in "Palestine".)

If you don't want me to jump to your "unintended meanings", you need to be more careful about what you write in your rush to blame Israel.

Point taken, but you really really missed my point. It was not a rush to blame Israel of anything - it was pointing out an unintended consequence of an action taken for security reasons (right or wrong). That wasn't the issue - it was the decrease in social interactions. I think you are way to quick to accuse me of a rush on "blaming Israel" - this becomes an exercise in walking on eggshells.

 

[Coyote]

These are the Peaceful Inner Strugglers who have permanently dropped anchor in the seventh century and who are looking toward ways to expand the fascistic infliction of suffering and mass murder / suicide into the illusion of a pious man being granted a noble martyr's death: Hey, it's your delusion—have at it. The reality is, however, that Islamic killers live and thrive off of the suffering of everyday, decent humans. They find a religious duty in causing bloodshed. They see God's design in destruction and suffering. They feed on inculcating hatred and causing the agony of others. You may think that worldview is holy, but I happen to know that it's vile.

There are many many Palestinians who just want a decent life for themselves and their families and see nothing coming from leadership, corruption, and constant threats of violence from Israel. Infrastructure is repeatedly targeted and destroyed. Embargos place severe restrictions on how they live. Many of the people massing at the border fence aren't "Islamic terrorists" but just plain fed up and desperate people. People who are sick and tired of seeing their agriculture destroyed, children assaulted by stone throwing settlers and land taken.

Your response here absolutely REEKS of "its all the Jews fault".

"If only the Jews would stop attacking the poor, innocent Arabs so that the Arabs could just have a decent life for themselves, then everything would be rainbows and unicorns."

You pretend that the culture of violence and the ideology of mass murder and suicide is nothing but a response to Jewish "evil", as if the "Jews made them do it".

Tinmore couldn't have said it better.

Oh bullshit. You are totally ignoring the complexity of the issue - TOTALLY. I'm not laying blame - I'm calling bull on your claim that it is entirely one sided and simplistic. You know it isn't. So quit jumping to the "it's the Jooooos" victimhood defense!

Oh please.

Hollie's paragraph was about ideology.

If you want me to stop using the "Joooooooos victimhood defense" STOP giving me cause to.

You can do that by addressing Hollie's points in her post. Instead of (one-sidedly and without context) listing all the things which Israel (Jews) are "doing" to the Arabs which is preventing their "peaceful" life. Stop ignoring the ideology and claiming that "if only the Jews would stop doing these terrible things, then there would be peace".

Oh Please. Try to apply your standards evenly and DO NOT CLAIM I AM SAYING THINGS I DID NOT SAY. That is incredibly dishonest!

....used by Moslems to breed generation after generation of religious psychopaths...


That is talking about MUSLIMS.

Go ahead and defend. I do not find any more defendable then Tinmore's comments.

 

[Shusha]

So, the dynamics at play in the actions of Islamic terrorists in a disgusting drama where children are used as war material are as follows: The terrorist thugs in the PA / Hamas know that Israelis cherish life, especially that of a child. They know that for Israelis, the first instinct is to trust kids, therefore increasing the chances of a kid being able to smuggle bombs and weapons (sometimes with instructions to use them) through Israeli checkpoints. They exploit the warped innocence of these young people, who are raised to hold up death and murder as lofty ideals. And for these vile people, the prospects of possibly murdering Israelis outweighs putting a kid's life in danger by placing him or her in close proximity to high explosives.

But are all Palestinian children raised to hold death and murder as lofty ideals? Most? When I've read interviews with kids, a good many aspire to be doctors, lawyers, to be able to help their people. When there are pictures of "Jihadi camps" it seems to be the same old pictures recycled. I don't doubt they exist but are they that prevalent? Again - no one examines that and no one examines the how people really feel about issues.

This is where I am frustrated. I am frustrated (and frankly, angry) when people insist to Jews that Jews are really just imagining things when they see a vile ideology, especially a vile ideology directed at Jews.

"Oh its just a few bad apples. Its not like children are REALLY indoctrinated and exploited."

There are two sides to every issue and you are attempting to claim otherwise - that if one points out that there is another side one is automatically blaming the jews.

And frankly - some of the pro-Israeli media is as dishonest as the Pro-Palestinian media. A perfect example are the claims that about Palestinian textbooks when (shock) Israeli textbooks are also pretty biased - or, look at how Nakhba is handled.

Which versions are accurate Shusha?

There are NOT two sides to every issue. And sometimes is dangerous to think so. (I read a great article about this not long ago, but can't find it just now.)

One of the reasons why it is dangerous is for exactly what you are attempting to do here: minimize, reduce, push aside, claim something isn't real or isn't really happening. Its rejecting reality, specifically rejecting the reality of the target, which is gaslighting.

I do not agree - there are always multiple sides. That doesn't mean both sides and their arguments are equal, but to say there aren't two sides is to totally reject the other and to totally accept the dominant narrative even though sometimes that narrative is wrong.

Actually....I can think of things where there are NOT two sides that have legitimacy, and I guess those are things that deal with moral imperatives (if that is the correct term).

Targeting and killling innocent people, particularly children.
Genocide.

There are probably others. But if you are talking about the overall I/P conflict - a broad and complex issue, then yes there are two sides.

I wish I could find that article I was reading. It was about six months ago though. I'm pretty sure I printed it off and filed it somewhere for my work, but.... shrug.

I think we've clarified this enough that we are more-or-less on the same page here. I agree with your last sentence.

Still, you didn't post about the broad and complex issues -- you posted a list of all the bad things Israel is doing. As a direct response to comments about an ideology held by Arabs. It implies that the cause of Arab's ideology is the bad things Israel is doing. And if Israel just stopped doing the bad things, Arabs would be peaceful.

If you want to be seen as balanced and understanding and representing both sides, you need to NOT draw a straight line between Arab's vile ideology and bad things Israel is doing. You need to show your work. You need to demonstrate the broad and complex part.

 

[Coyote]

But are all Palestinian children raised to hold death and murder as lofty ideals? Most? When I've read interviews with kids, a good many aspire to be doctors, lawyers, to be able to help their people. When there are pictures of "Jihadi camps" it seems to be the same old pictures recycled. I don't doubt they exist but are they that prevalent? Again - no one examines that and no one examines the how people really feel about issues.

This is where I am frustrated. I am frustrated (and frankly, angry) when people insist to Jews that Jews are really just imagining things when they see a vile ideology, especially a vile ideology directed at Jews.

"Oh its just a few bad apples. Its not like children are REALLY indoctrinated and exploited."

There are two sides to every issue and you are attempting to claim otherwise - that if one points out that there is another side one is automatically blaming the jews.

And frankly - some of the pro-Israeli media is as dishonest as the Pro-Palestinian media. A perfect example are the claims that about Palestinian textbooks when (shock) Israeli textbooks are also pretty biased - or, look at how Nakhba is handled.

Which versions are accurate Shusha?

There are NOT two sides to every issue. And sometimes is dangerous to think so. (I read a great article about this not long ago, but can't find it just now.)

One of the reasons why it is dangerous is for exactly what you are attempting to do here: minimize, reduce, push aside, claim something isn't real or isn't really happening. Its rejecting reality, specifically rejecting the reality of the target, which is gaslighting.

I do not agree - there are always multiple sides. That doesn't mean both sides and their arguments are equal, but to say there aren't two sides is to totally reject the other and to totally accept the dominant narrative even though sometimes that narrative is wrong.

Actually....I can think of things where there are NOT two sides that have legitimacy, and I guess those are things that deal with moral imperatives (if that is the correct term).

Targeting and killling innocent people, particularly children.
Genocide.

There are probably others. But if you are talking about the overall I/P conflict - a broad and complex issue, then yes there are two sides.

I wish I could find that article I was reading. It was about six months ago though. I'm pretty sure I printed it off and filed it somewhere for my work, but.... shrug.

I think we've clarified this enough that we are more-or-less on the same page here. I agree with your last sentence.

Still, you didn't post about the broad and complex issues -- you posted a list of all the bad things Israel is doing. As a direct response to comments about an ideology held by Arabs.

If you want to be seen as balanced and understanding and representing both sides, you need to NOT draw a straight line between Arab's vile ideology and bad things Israel is doing. You need to show your work. You need to demonstrate the broad and complex part.

I didn't post a list - just two examples, textbooks and Nakba. Two things.

And here you, again, confuse. You chastised me for expecting others to post both sides...and then chastise me for not posting both sides.

 

[Shusha]

....used by Moslems to breed generation after generation of religious psychopaths...


That is talking about MUSLIMS.

Go ahead and defend. I do not find any more defendable then Tinmore's comments.

This is talking about the ideology used by Muslims...

 

[Shusha]

This is where I am frustrated. I am frustrated (and frankly, angry) when people insist to Jews that Jews are really just imagining things when they see a vile ideology, especially a vile ideology directed at Jews.

"Oh its just a few bad apples. Its not like children are REALLY indoctrinated and exploited."

There are two sides to every issue and you are attempting to claim otherwise - that if one points out that there is another side one is automatically blaming the jews.

And frankly - some of the pro-Israeli media is as dishonest as the Pro-Palestinian media. A perfect example are the claims that about Palestinian textbooks when (shock) Israeli textbooks are also pretty biased - or, look at how Nakhba is handled.

Which versions are accurate Shusha?

There are NOT two sides to every issue. And sometimes is dangerous to think so. (I read a great article about this not long ago, but can't find it just now.)

One of the reasons why it is dangerous is for exactly what you are attempting to do here: minimize, reduce, push aside, claim something isn't real or isn't really happening. Its rejecting reality, specifically rejecting the reality of the target, which is gaslighting.

I do not agree - there are always multiple sides. That doesn't mean both sides and their arguments are equal, but to say there aren't two sides is to totally reject the other and to totally accept the dominant narrative even though sometimes that narrative is wrong.

Actually....I can think of things where there are NOT two sides that have legitimacy, and I guess those are things that deal with moral imperatives (if that is the correct term).

Targeting and killling innocent people, particularly children.
Genocide.

There are probably others. But if you are talking about the overall I/P conflict - a broad and complex issue, then yes there are two sides.

I wish I could find that article I was reading. It was about six months ago though. I'm pretty sure I printed it off and filed it somewhere for my work, but.... shrug.

I think we've clarified this enough that we are more-or-less on the same page here. I agree with your last sentence.

Still, you didn't post about the broad and complex issues -- you posted a list of all the bad things Israel is doing. As a direct response to comments about an ideology held by Arabs.

If you want to be seen as balanced and understanding and representing both sides, you need to NOT draw a straight line between Arab's vile ideology and bad things Israel is doing. You need to show your work. You need to demonstrate the broad and complex part.

I didn't post a list - just two examples, textbooks and Nakba. Two things.

And here you, again, confuse. You chastised me for expecting others to post both sides...and then chastise me for not posting both sides.

I was thinking of the other post and the other list. My bad.

I'm chastising you for claiming to be able to see and represent both sides while only posting one side. Its the internal inconsistency that I am calling out.

 

[Coyote]

There are two sides to every issue and you are attempting to claim otherwise - that if one points out that there is another side one is automatically blaming the jews.

And frankly - some of the pro-Israeli media is as dishonest as the Pro-Palestinian media. A perfect example are the claims that about Palestinian textbooks when (shock) Israeli textbooks are also pretty biased - or, look at how Nakhba is handled.

Which versions are accurate Shusha?

There are NOT two sides to every issue. And sometimes is dangerous to think so. (I read a great article about this not long ago, but can't find it just now.)

One of the reasons why it is dangerous is for exactly what you are attempting to do here: minimize, reduce, push aside, claim something isn't real or isn't really happening. Its rejecting reality, specifically rejecting the reality of the target, which is gaslighting.

I do not agree - there are always multiple sides. That doesn't mean both sides and their arguments are equal, but to say there aren't two sides is to totally reject the other and to totally accept the dominant narrative even though sometimes that narrative is wrong.

Actually....I can think of things where there are NOT two sides that have legitimacy, and I guess those are things that deal with moral imperatives (if that is the correct term).

Targeting and killling innocent people, particularly children.
Genocide.

There are probably others. But if you are talking about the overall I/P conflict - a broad and complex issue, then yes there are two sides.

I wish I could find that article I was reading. It was about six months ago though. I'm pretty sure I printed it off and filed it somewhere for my work, but.... shrug.

I think we've clarified this enough that we are more-or-less on the same page here. I agree with your last sentence.

Still, you didn't post about the broad and complex issues -- you posted a list of all the bad things Israel is doing. As a direct response to comments about an ideology held by Arabs.

If you want to be seen as balanced and understanding and representing both sides, you need to NOT draw a straight line between Arab's vile ideology and bad things Israel is doing. You need to show your work. You need to demonstrate the broad and complex part.

I didn't post a list - just two examples, textbooks and Nakba. Two things.

And here you, again, confuse. You chastised me for expecting others to post both sides...and then chastise me for not posting both sides.

I was thinking of the other post and the other list. My bad.

I'm chastising you for claiming to be able to see and represent both sides while only posting one side. Its the internal inconsistency that I am calling out.

I don't think I've ever claimed to represent both sides...I've always said I see merit and right and wrong in both sides, but I've always been pro-Palestinian in my general position. I've never claimed otherwise.

 

[Coyote]

....used by Moslems to breed generation after generation of religious psychopaths...


That is talking about MUSLIMS.

Go ahead and defend. I do not find any more defendable then Tinmore's comments.

This is talking about the ideology used by Muslims...

by Muslims...not Muslim extremists...not some Muslims - every statement has been a broad brush, not a narrow one.

 

[Shusha]

These are the Peaceful Inner Strugglers who have permanently dropped anchor in the seventh century and who are looking toward ways to expand the fascistic infliction of suffering and mass murder / suicide into the illusion of a pious man being granted a noble martyr's death: Hey, it's your delusion—have at it. The reality is, however, that Islamic killers live and thrive off of the suffering of everyday, decent humans. They find a religious duty in causing bloodshed. They see God's design in destruction and suffering. They feed on inculcating hatred and causing the agony of others. You may think that worldview is holy, but I happen to know that it's vile.

There are many many Palestinians who just want a decent life for themselves and their families and see nothing coming from leadership, corruption, and constant threats of violence from Israel. Infrastructure is repeatedly targeted and destroyed. Embargos place severe restrictions on how they live. Many of the people massing at the border fence aren't "Islamic terrorists" but just plain fed up and desperate people. People who are sick and tired of seeing their agriculture destroyed, children assaulted by stone throwing settlers and land taken.

Your response here absolutely REEKS of "its all the Jews fault".

"If only the Jews would stop attacking the poor, innocent Arabs so that the Arabs could just have a decent life for themselves, then everything would be rainbows and unicorns."

You pretend that the culture of violence and the ideology of mass murder and suicide is nothing but a response to Jewish "evil", as if the "Jews made them do it".

Tinmore couldn't have said it better.

Oh bullshit. You are totally ignoring the complexity of the issue - TOTALLY. I'm not laying blame - I'm calling bull on your claim that it is entirely one sided and simplistic. You know it isn't. So quit jumping to the "it's the Jooooos" victimhood defense!

Oh please.

Hollie's paragraph was about ideology.

If you want me to stop using the "Joooooooos victimhood defense" STOP giving me cause to.

You can do that by addressing Hollie's points in her post. Instead of (one-sidedly and without context) listing all the things which Israel (Jews) are "doing" to the Arabs which is preventing their "peaceful" life. Stop ignoring the ideology and claiming that "if only the Jews would stop doing these terrible things, then there would be peace".

Oh Please. Try to apply your standards evenly and DO NOT CLAIM I AM SAYING THINGS I DID NOT SAY. That is incredibly dishonest!

....used by Moslems to breed generation after generation of religious psychopaths...


That is talking about MUSLIMS.

Go ahead and defend. I do not find any more defendable then Tinmore's comments.

My original point here was that there was a discussion about Arab Muslim ideology. Rather than respond to that ideology, you created a list of "bad things Israels (Jews) do".

This suggests that if only Israels (Jews) would stop doing bad things, then Arab's wouldn't hold this vile ideology. The implication is that the CAUSE of the Arab's vile ideology is the bad things Jews do.

Look at it like this:

There is a culture of entitlement to women's bodies and sex which is held by many men in our society and is broadly excused, accepted and/or supported, commonly called "rape culture".

Men just want to go on with their lives. They are constantly exposed to ankles, hair and cleavage. Short skirts are everywhere. Women's bodies move provocatively. Women are found alone at night. Women go on dates with men, and then don't provide the necessities of life that men need. Drinking places severe restrictions on the ability to judge whether consent is asked for and obtained. Men are sick and tired of seeing sexual objects walking around and not being able to access them.



If you can see the victim-blaming in the one, you should be able to see the victim-blaming in the other.

 

[P F Tinmore]

This is a one sided issue.

It is not. There are 2 sides to every coin. My relatives immigrated to Israel after WW2, when they had no place else to go to.

That wasn't the Palestinian's fault. Why should they get bounced for that?

There was immigration on both sides - there were also Arabs, from Egypt, Syria etc. who immigrated to the region for work. Why don't you blame them as well?

The Arabs immigrated to be part of the Palestinian society.

The Zionist "immigrants" came to take over Palestine.

There were no similarities.

Oh bullshit. They migrated for JOBS.

If we applied the logic equally - Jews immigrated to become part of the native Jewish society - in fact they originally settled in established Jewish communities. There is no difference except different standards being applied.

The purpose of the immigration makes a big difference.

Enter David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), one of the Yishuv leaders who was born in Poland as David Gruen and arrived in Palestine in 1906 at the age of 20 and later became the first prime minister of Israel. He strongly advanced the idea of transfer and saw a clear link between the separation of the Palestinians and of the Jews and the plan for the eventual transfer of the Palestinians out of Palestine.

When the Palestinian Revolt took place between 1936 and 1939, the Zionists saw a chance for the strengthening of their underground forces and the expansion of their military infrastructure. It was becoming clear to the Yishuv that the solution to the Palestinian demographic problem can only be achieved through military force.

Introduction - 1948

This is a military attack.​

 

[Coyote]

There are many many Palestinians who just want a decent life for themselves and their families and see nothing coming from leadership, corruption, and constant threats of violence from Israel. Infrastructure is repeatedly targeted and destroyed. Embargos place severe restrictions on how they live. Many of the people massing at the border fence aren't "Islamic terrorists" but just plain fed up and desperate people. People who are sick and tired of seeing their agriculture destroyed, children assaulted by stone throwing settlers and land taken.

Your response here absolutely REEKS of "its all the Jews fault".

"If only the Jews would stop attacking the poor, innocent Arabs so that the Arabs could just have a decent life for themselves, then everything would be rainbows and unicorns."

You pretend that the culture of violence and the ideology of mass murder and suicide is nothing but a response to Jewish "evil", as if the "Jews made them do it".

Tinmore couldn't have said it better.

Oh bullshit. You are totally ignoring the complexity of the issue - TOTALLY. I'm not laying blame - I'm calling bull on your claim that it is entirely one sided and simplistic. You know it isn't. So quit jumping to the "it's the Jooooos" victimhood defense!

Oh please.

Hollie's paragraph was about ideology.

If you want me to stop using the "Joooooooos victimhood defense" STOP giving me cause to.

You can do that by addressing Hollie's points in her post. Instead of (one-sidedly and without context) listing all the things which Israel (Jews) are "doing" to the Arabs which is preventing their "peaceful" life. Stop ignoring the ideology and claiming that "if only the Jews would stop doing these terrible things, then there would be peace".

Oh Please. Try to apply your standards evenly and DO NOT CLAIM I AM SAYING THINGS I DID NOT SAY. That is incredibly dishonest!

....used by Moslems to breed generation after generation of religious psychopaths...


That is talking about MUSLIMS.

Go ahead and defend. I do not find any more defendable then Tinmore's comments.

My original point here was that there was a discussion about Arab Muslim ideology. Rather than respond to that ideology, you created a list of "bad things Israels (Jews) do".

This suggests that if only Israels (Jews) would stop doing bad things, then Arab's wouldn't hold this vile ideology. The implication is that the CAUSE of the Arab's vile ideology is the bad things Jews do.

Look at it like this:

There is a culture of entitlement to women's bodies and sex which is held by many men in our society and is broadly excused, accepted and/or supported, commonly called "rape culture".

Men just want to go on with their lives. They are constantly exposed to ankles, hair and cleavage. Short skirts are everywhere. Women's bodies move provocatively. Women are found alone at night. Women go on dates with men, and then don't provide the necessities of life that men need. Drinking places severe restrictions on the ability to judge whether consent is asked for and obtained. Men are sick and tired of seeing sexual objects walking around and not being able to access them.



If you can see the victim-blaming in the one, you should be able to see the victim-blaming in the other.

That was absolutely not my intent, but I see the point you are making.

Does the same apply when one is talking about abuses under Israel's military justice system in regards to Palestinian minors, and the other responds with all the horrible things Palestinians do in their justice system? That has actually come up.

 

[Coyote]

It is not. There are 2 sides to every coin. My relatives immigrated to Israel after WW2, when they had no place else to go to.

That wasn't the Palestinian's fault. Why should they get bounced for that?

There was immigration on both sides - there were also Arabs, from Egypt, Syria etc. who immigrated to the region for work. Why don't you blame them as well?

The Arabs immigrated to be part of the Palestinian society.

The Zionist "immigrants" came to take over Palestine.

There were no similarities.

Oh bullshit. They migrated for JOBS.

If we applied the logic equally - Jews immigrated to become part of the native Jewish society - in fact they originally settled in established Jewish communities. There is no difference except different standards being applied.

The purpose of the immigration makes a big difference.

Enter David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), one of the Yishuv leaders who was born in Poland as David Gruen and arrived in Palestine in 1906 at the age of 20 and later became the first prime minister of Israel. He strongly advanced the idea of transfer and saw a clear link between the separation of the Palestinians and of the Jews and the plan for the eventual transfer of the Palestinians out of Palestine.

When the Palestinian Revolt took place between 1936 and 1939, the Zionists saw a chance for the strengthening of their underground forces and the expansion of their military infrastructure. It was becoming clear to the Yishuv that the solution to the Palestinian demographic problem can only be achieved through military force.

Introduction - 1948​

The purposes of immigration were pluralistic. There had long been Jewish immigration to Israel, as a form of returning to one's native land, without the idea of creating a state.

There was immigration, particularly after the Holocaust, where the idea of a state became a matter of survival.

There were PLURALISTIC views among Jews at the time as to the creation of a state, the make up of the state, and the ethnicity of it's citizenry. The attitude that won out was a democratic state, set up as a homeland for the Jewish people, and all citizenry having equal rights (at least in theory). The minority factions that called for driving out the Arabs were decisively overruled.

All of this 70 years ago...3 generations of people.

Are we going to bang on about the events 70 years ago?

 

[Shusha]

Your response here absolutely REEKS of "its all the Jews fault".

"If only the Jews would stop attacking the poor, innocent Arabs so that the Arabs could just have a decent life for themselves, then everything would be rainbows and unicorns."

You pretend that the culture of violence and the ideology of mass murder and suicide is nothing but a response to Jewish "evil", as if the "Jews made them do it".

Tinmore couldn't have said it better.

Oh bullshit. You are totally ignoring the complexity of the issue - TOTALLY. I'm not laying blame - I'm calling bull on your claim that it is entirely one sided and simplistic. You know it isn't. So quit jumping to the "it's the Jooooos" victimhood defense!

Oh please.

Hollie's paragraph was about ideology.

If you want me to stop using the "Joooooooos victimhood defense" STOP giving me cause to.

You can do that by addressing Hollie's points in her post. Instead of (one-sidedly and without context) listing all the things which Israel (Jews) are "doing" to the Arabs which is preventing their "peaceful" life. Stop ignoring the ideology and claiming that "if only the Jews would stop doing these terrible things, then there would be peace".

Oh Please. Try to apply your standards evenly and DO NOT CLAIM I AM SAYING THINGS I DID NOT SAY. That is incredibly dishonest!

....used by Moslems to breed generation after generation of religious psychopaths...


That is talking about MUSLIMS.

Go ahead and defend. I do not find any more defendable then Tinmore's comments.

My original point here was that there was a discussion about Arab Muslim ideology. Rather than respond to that ideology, you created a list of "bad things Israels (Jews) do".

This suggests that if only Israels (Jews) would stop doing bad things, then Arab's wouldn't hold this vile ideology. The implication is that the CAUSE of the Arab's vile ideology is the bad things Jews do.

Look at it like this:

There is a culture of entitlement to women's bodies and sex which is held by many men in our society and is broadly excused, accepted and/or supported, commonly called "rape culture".

Men just want to go on with their lives. They are constantly exposed to ankles, hair and cleavage. Short skirts are everywhere. Women's bodies move provocatively. Women are found alone at night. Women go on dates with men, and then don't provide the necessities of life that men need. Drinking places severe restrictions on the ability to judge whether consent is asked for and obtained. Men are sick and tired of seeing sexual objects walking around and not being able to access them.



If you can see the victim-blaming in the one, you should be able to see the victim-blaming in the other.

That was absolutely not my intent, but I see the point you are making.

Does the same apply when one is talking about abuses under Israel's military justice system in regards to Palestinian minors, and the other responds with all the horrible things Palestinians do in their justice system? That has actually come up.

I understand that was not your intent. But, it was a deliberate avoidance of addressing the topic and resulted in blame-shifting. Perhaps from unintended or unrecognized biases? Something to think about.

"The other side does it too" and "the other side is even worse" are logical fallacies and sloppy debate, if you ask me. I, myself, try not to employ these types of arguments, though I probably don't always succeed.

I think the best way to approach responding to accusations of this nature is to meet it head on, and if wrong-doing is discovered from your own Team (as it were) acknowledge the wrong-doing, clearly claim its wrongness and suggest ideas for improvement.

Just my two cents. Shrug.