Who are Dems Fooling with this "Additional Revenues" Nonsense?

[The Rabbi]

Toddster, you didn't answer the question.
I always thought that equality was part of the Bil of Rights or does that apply to those who aren't in the Privilege Class. That's why I believe in a flat tax.

You said he shouldn't shoulder less responsibility.
I showed you the rate he pays, how is that less responsibility?

Good point. Problem is, as a majority of his income is via Captial Gains he isn't shouldering what Jan and Joe Mainstreat America are. This clealry points out how our system is shewed for the wealthy. Where's the equality?

Who said the tax system is supposed to be about equality?

 

[kiwiman127]

The Declaration of Independence states that the government is to ensure equality.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Toddster, you didn't answer the question.
I always thought that equality was part of the Bil of Rights or does that apply to those who aren't in the Privilege Class. That's why I believe in a flat tax.

You said he shouldn't shoulder less responsibility.
I showed you the rate he pays, how is that less responsibility?

Good point. Problem is, as a majority of his income is via Captial Gains he isn't shouldering what Jan and Joe Mainstreat America are. This clealry points out how our system is shewed for the wealthy. Where's the equality?

You're right. The millions in taxes he pays shows he is shouldering much more than Jan and Joe Mainstreet are.
I believe the tax equality in the Constitution involved everyone paying the same amount.

"(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.)"

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Declaration of Independence states that the government is to ensure equality.

Could you show me the portion of the Declaration that backs up your claim?

 

[Contumacious]

The Declaration of Independence states that the government is to ensure equality.

Could you show me the portion of the Declaration that backs up your claim?

I believe he meant to say the Fourteenth Amendment

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Declaration of Independence states that the government is to ensure equality.

Could you show me the portion of the Declaration that backs up your claim?

I believe he meant to say the Fourteenth Amendment

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

.

Thanks for trying to help him out.
Does he know the Fourteenth Amendment isn't part of the Declaration?
Or that it doesn't, in fact, ensure equality?

 

[bripat9643]

The Declaration of Independence states that the government is to ensure equality.

Equality before the law, and that's it.

 

[The Rabbi]

The Declaration of Independence states that the government is to ensure equality.

A) No it doesn't.
B) The Declaration is not a legal document.

Any other facts you'd like to mangle?

 

[cielo42]

seriously? you are upset over that?

 

[Sactowndog]

According to Warren Buffett himself, he pays 17.7%. A lot of people who know something about taxes are confused by his figures, since his secretary SHOULD only be paying 25% on that amount, assuming that she's single. And if Buffett really isn't making any effort to avoid paying higher taxes, like he says, he should be paying around 35%. Of course, without demanding that both of them make their tax returns public, it's very hard to tell WHAT'S going on here, other than the fact that Warren Buffett is manipulating people and their class-warfare mindset to benefit himself.

Well if capital gains are only 15% it is pretty easy for the capital gains on Buffet's portfolio to quickly overwhelm any income tax he pays and payroll tax which stops at about 110K of income.

And while the secretary should be paying 25% she also has to pay 15% payroll tax bringing her total to something much higher than Buffets.

 

[Sactowndog]

Yes, I know that the employer pays half.
Let's push your new low rates.
I predict a boom in hiring.

If we actually collected 15.3% in effective rates on income to firms and individuals, tax revenues would increase.

Great! Let's put a 15.3% flat tax with no deductions on all income, capital gains and dividends. Our economy might even grow quickly enough for Obama to squeak out a win.

2 Honest questions

1) what do you think would happen to the deficit and do you care

2) do you think those who have been successful in the system have any greater responsibility to insure the an opportunity for all in the next generation?

 

[Sactowndog]

He shouldn't shoulder less responsibility.
He should pay the same rate of payroll tax that everyone does.
He should pay the same rate on his capital gains and dividends that everyone does.
He should pay 35% on the income over $373,650.
He should pay 33% on the income between $171,850 and $373,650.
He should pay 28% on the income between $82,400 and $171,850.
He should pay 25% on the income between $34,000 and $82,400.
He should pay 15% on the income between $8,375 and $34,000.
He should pay 10% on income between $0 and $8,375.

I am sure he does but likely almost all his income comes from capital gains which are 15%. And Capital Gains income isn't subject to payroll taxes... So really the taxes look like this

He should pay 35% on the income over $373,650.
He should pay 33% on the income between $171,850 and $373,650.
He should pay 28% on the income between ~$115,000 and $171,850.
He should pay 43% on the income between $82,400 and ~$115,000.
He should pay 40% on the income between $34,000 and $82,400.
He should pay 30% on the income between $8,375 and $34,000.
He should pay 25% on income between $0 and $8,375
He should pay 15% on capital gains

The bolded assumes he files as a single. A family that reaches that income level by having two income earners pays payroll taxes for both. So the family with two income earners will pay up to 48% up to about $230K if most of their income is from salary.

The tax load on the middle class is one of the heaviest in history. For those like Buffet and hedge fund managers who receive most of their income via capital gains the tax load is one of the lightest in history.

 

[Sactowndog]

You're right. The millions in taxes he pays shows he is shouldering much more than Jan and Joe Mainstreet are.
I believe the tax equality in the Constitution involved everyone paying the same amount.

Jan and Joe Mainstreet are likely paying around 43% marginal rate of their income to the Federal Treasury while Buffet is paying around 15% as is the local hedge fund manager.

Do you really think this is shouldering the same load?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Well if capital gains are only 15% it is pretty easy for the capital gains on Buffet's portfolio to quickly overwhelm any income tax he pays and payroll tax which stops at about 110K of income.

And while the secretary should be paying 25% she also has to pay 15% payroll tax bringing her total to something much higher than Buffets.

Yes, Buffett and his secretary both pay 15% on their capital gains.
Yes, they both pay 7.65% (5.65% this year) on their salary up to the cap.
Her total is not much higher than his, he paid MILLIONS.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If we actually collected 15.3% in effective rates on income to firms and individuals, tax revenues would increase.

Great! Let's put a 15.3% flat tax with no deductions on all income, capital gains and dividends. Our economy might even grow quickly enough for Obama to squeak out a win.

2 Honest questions

1) what do you think would happen to the deficit and do you care

2) do you think those who have been successful in the system have any greater responsibility to insure the an opportunity for all in the next generation?

1)These low, simple rates would reduce the need to hide income or use expensive tax accounts to save money. All that saved energy and money could be spent on something useful, like actually growing your company, instead of trying to keep Uncle Sam out of your pocket.
Cutting government spending by 50% would work wonders on fixing the government's overspending problem.

2)Yes, those who are successful should stop trying to make the government bigger and more powerful if they really want to increase opportunity for new generations.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

He shouldn't shoulder less responsibility.
He should pay the same rate of payroll tax that everyone does.
He should pay the same rate on his capital gains and dividends that everyone does.
He should pay 35% on the income over $373,650.
He should pay 33% on the income between $171,850 and $373,650.
He should pay 28% on the income between $82,400 and $171,850.
He should pay 25% on the income between $34,000 and $82,400.
He should pay 15% on the income between $8,375 and $34,000.
He should pay 10% on income between $0 and $8,375.

I am sure he does but likely almost all his income comes from capital gains which are 15%. And Capital Gains income isn't subject to payroll taxes... So really the taxes look like this

He should pay 35% on the income over $373,650.
He should pay 33% on the income between $171,850 and $373,650.
He should pay 28% on the income between ~$115,000 and $171,850.
He should pay 43% on the income between $82,400 and ~$115,000.
He should pay 40% on the income between $34,000 and $82,400.
He should pay 30% on the income between $8,375 and $34,000.
He should pay 25% on income between $0 and $8,375
He should pay 15% on capital gains

The bolded assumes he files as a single. A family that reaches that income level by having two income earners pays payroll taxes for both. So the family with two income earners will pay up to 48% up to about $230K if most of their income is from salary.

You want him to pay 15% plus the income tax on capital gains? LOL! His wife is dead, it was a pretty safe assumption. Yeah, Social Security screws over the middle class, doesn't it? Makes it hard to save for yourself. And then you only collect one check. What a joke.

The tax load on the middle class is one of the heaviest in history. For those like Buffet and hedge fund managers who receive most of their income via capital gains the tax load is one of the lightest in history.

Drop the income tax to 15%, problem solved.

 

[Sactowndog]

Yes, Buffett and his secretary both pay 15% on their capital gains.
Yes, they both pay 7.65% (5.65% this year) on their salary up to the cap.
Her total is not much higher than his, he paid MILLIONS.

You can claim whatever you want but at the end of the day he pays a 15% marginal rate and she probably pays around 43%. It is totally assbackward end of story....

I grew up a Republican and my Republican parents and grandparents taught me that this country is special because it provides an opportunity for everyone. That this opportunity doesn't come for free. If I was successful like them, I had an obligation to pay slightly more so that all had an opportunity in the generation behind me.

Not the 70%-90% marginal rate of Johnson's great society because that tried to guarantee equal results which doesn't work, but that a reasonably graduated tax rate was not a bad thing. I would like to think that Reagan would feel the same way and would be disappointed with many on this board. I am certain my parents and grandparents would be.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Jan and Joe Mainstreet are likely paying around 43% marginal rate of their income to the Federal Treasury while Buffet is paying around 15% as is the local hedge fund manager.

Do you really think this is shouldering the same load?

43%? What kind of money are Jan and Joe making in your example?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You can claim whatever you want but at the end of the day he pays a 15% marginal rate and she probably pays around 43%. It is totally backakward End of story....

I grew up a Republican and my Republican parents and grandparents taught me that this country is special because it provides an opportunity for everyone. That this opportunity doesn't come for free. If I was successful like them, I had an obligation to pay slightly more so that all had an opportunity in the generation behind me.

Not the 70%-90% marginal rate of Johnson's great society because that tried to guarantee equal results which doesn't work, but that a reasonably graduated tax rate was not a bad thing. I would like to think that Reagan would feel the same way and would be disappointed with many on this board.

He lied and said his secretary made $60K and paid 30% in income tax.
I'm not sure you have the right definition of marginal. I could try to help you with that if you'd like.

You don't think Buffett is paying slightly more than his secretary?

Reagan ended his 2nd term with the top rate 28% and the only other rate 15%.
He would be disappointed in people saying the current top rate of 35% isn't enough.

 

[edthecynic]

I believe the tax equality in the Constitution involved everyone paying the same amount.http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

SOCIALIST!!!!
You believe in Socialized taxes!!!