Zone1 Which came first, Christianity or Judaism?

[rosends]

The secular state is desperate for canon fodder. I was never treated well in Orthodox circles, due to having a Catholic mother or being the son of a "shiksa" of a Jewish man. They were married, but my mother will always be a "shiksa". Don't lie to me, I know exactly how it is. You people are xenophobic, holding the goyim in contempt and that leads to a self-perpetuating cycle of persecution and victimhood.

The secular state doesn't want canon fodder. Maybe if you weren't treated "well" that's because you tried to insinuate yourself where you don't belong and people don't like poseurs. Maybe it has to do with your clearly paranoid personality. Your insistence that anyone who says you are wrong is lying and that you know better (arrogant and narcissistic, BTW). Keep playing the "you people" card and lashing out. You are clearly very sad and feel persecuted by the world. That's not an attractive look and you don't even wear it well.

 

[TruthNotBS]

I doubt that you have read the books even in English-----as to the idiot "ONE COUD ACCURATELY CONFIRM ABOUT RABBINIC JUDAISM NOT BEING THE ANCIENT RELIGION
OF THE "BIBLICAL ISRAELITES" " <<<<BULLSHIT In fact, that which is easily confirmed
is that RABBINIC JUDAISM was that of the person you call "jesus" ----and about which the unknown 'john' ass licker of rome ... GARBBLED. ps-----the person you call "jesus" was a PHARISEE JEW---adherent
of the school of HILLEL and he washed his hands before he ate-----not being a roman pig

Jesus/Yehoshua, is Mashiach and it's through Him that YHWH redeems the world.

 

[rosends]

what was their reason for murdering jesus -

if he did not have a better way the religion of antiquity and they felt threatened what was their motivation and then deliberately exclude them from their deliberations proving his innocence ...

- the blood soaked hands of the jews till brought to justice and restitution exacted.

You have a few erronous suppositions here so I will try to break them down and help you out:

Assuming Jesus existed and the varying gospel accounts can be remotely believed, Jews did not murder Jesus. Romans did. The sadduccees who were in charge of the sanhedrin (which would not have met when and where the text describes and which would not have tried the case as presented, nor could it exercise a death penalty, nor could it have based on how the case is presented) might have handed Jesus over to secular authorities (read The Court Martial of Jesus by Fricke). But any resultant (mis)understanding about "collective punishment" is outside of any Jewish law. So the whole scenario is flawed.

 

[TruthNotBS]

As I said, you are a suffering, paranoid wannabe. Perhaps your circle of one enjoys the victim role you play as you displace your disappointement with yourself and your life, but everyone sees your bitterness and ignorance of display. Your inability to confront the need for clarity in communication and your willingness to hide behind dead level abstractions. You are a prime example of hatred and now are doing a great job of mixing anti-semitism with anti-Zionism thus making obvious to the world that the two are inextricably linked in mindless anger and vitriol.

Without the Son of YHWH, you don't have YHWH.

 

[rosends]

Without the Son of YHWH, you don't have YHWH.

that is so, so flawed.
First, if you look textually, a bunch of different people and beings are called sons of God.
Second, YHWH is a meaningless set of English letters. That you use it shows more ignorance.
Third, why would God's existence hinge on the existence of anyone else?


There are more problems but I'll let you start with those.

 

[TruthNotBS]

You have a few erronous suppositions here so I will try to break them down and help you out:

Assuming Jesus existed and the varying gospel accounts can be remotely believed, Jews did not murder Jesus. Romans did. The sadduccees who were in charge of the sanhedrin (which would not have met when and where the text describes and which would not have tried the case as presented, nor could it exercise a death penalty, nor could it have based on how the case is presented) might have handed Jesus over to secular authorities (read The Court Martial of Jesus by Fricke). But any resultant (mis)understanding about "collective punishment" is outside of any Jewish law. So the whole scenario is flawed.

There is collective punishment, and the proof of that is that we were consigned to corruption and death as a result of the first Adam's sin. We don't have access to the Tree of life, apart from Jesus.

 

[BreezeWood]

seeing as Jesus himself was a Jew. Christian itself started as a sect of Judaism,

an erroneous claim written by the crucifiers included in their c-bible.

they, jesus were heavenly endowed from the beginning by the original religion of antiquity promoting liberation theology, self determination - judaism abandoned for their own self interest than the multitudes and murdered jesus for their inclusion of humanity for the final judgement among many of their heartless grievances.

 

[TruthNotBS]

that is so, so flawed.
First, if you look textually, a bunch of different people and beings are called sons of God.
Second, YHWH is a meaningless set of English letters. That you use it shows more ignorance.
Third, why would God's existence hinge on the existence of anyone else?


There are more problems but I'll let you start with those.

Jesus is the unique Son of God, the Sar Gadol/High prince of heaven.

 

[rosends]

There is collective punishment, and the proof of that is that we were consigned to corruption and death as a result of the first Adam's sin. We don't have access to the Tree of life, apart from Jesus.

oooh, then you don't understand what happend in the garden. That's OK -- a lot of people who haven't actually studied it get it wrong.

 

[rosends]

Jesus is the unique Son of God, the Sar Gadol/High prince of heaven.

this is, indeed, your claim. It is contradicted by text, but whatever...

 

[TruthNotBS]

this is, indeed, your claim. It is contradicted by text, but whatever...

In the classic text, Derech Hashem (The Way of God), Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, goes as far as stating that there can even be a "more highly perfected Tzaddik," who can not only atone for his generation but even for all the generations of men:

"... suffering and pain may be imposed on a tzaddik as an atonement for his entire generation. This tzaddik must then accept this suffering with love for the benefit of his generation, just as he accepts the suffering imposed upon him for his own sake. In doing so, he benefits his generation by atoning for it, and at the same time is himself elevated to a very great degree ... In addition, there is a special, higher type of suffering that comes to a tzaddik who is even greater and more highly perfected than the ones discussed above. This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole." 1

The following Zohar passage speaks of a Tzaddik dying for the sins of others, specifically calling him "the arm." By the shed blood of this "arm," healing is brought to the rest of "the body," which is said to be mankind. The text also says that God smites one righteous man to bring atonement for all men of his generation, and associates this man with the servant of Isaiah, chapter 53, a classic (and often disputed) Messianic passage:

Soncino Zohar, Bemidbar, Section 3, Page 218a – Why is it that whenever sinners multiply in the world and punishment impends over the world, the virtuous among them are smitten for them, as we have learnt, that for the guilt of the generation the holy and righteous are seized upon? Why should this be? If because they do not reprove mankind for their evil deeds, how many are there who do reprove but are not listened to (though the righteous do humble themselves before them)? If it is in order that there may be no one to shield them, let them not die and let them not be seized for their sins, since it is a satisfaction to the righteous to see their destruction. He replied: It is true that for the guilt of the generation the righteous are seized upon, but we may explain this on the analogy of the limbs of the body. When all the limbs are in pain and suffering from sickness one limb has to be smitten in order that all may be healed. Which is the one? The arm. The arm is smitten and blood is drawn from it, and this is healing for all the limbs of the body. So men are like limbs of one body. When God desires to give healing to the world He smites one righteous man among them with disease and suffering, and through him gives healing to all, as it is written, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities... and with his stripes we are healed" (Isa. LIII, 5). A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it, for the "other side" prefers that punishment should light upon the virtuous man rather than on any other, for then it cares not for the whole world on account of the joy it finds in having power over him.

(See "Connection to Yom Kippur" below for more on the last sentence of the above section.)

Isaiah chapter 53 (quoted above) begins with a mention of the "arm of the Lord":

Isaiah 53:1 - Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

 

[TruthNotBS]

oooh, then you don't understand what happend in the garden. That's OK -- a lot of people who haven't actually studied it get it wrong.

Read Derech Hashem, written by the RAMCHAL, the founder of the Musar movement. He admits that through the sin of Adam, creation became "שחיתות" (Shchitut), corrupt. Many rabbis agree with me, that Adam introduced corruption. We are consigned to disease and death, due to the failure of the first Adam. Messiah is the second Adam, the Highest of the Tzadikim. He purges, and cleanses creation, including the human soul, through His martyrdom. He was perfect, so death had no authority over him. hence he rose from the dead. In him, we are redeemed.

 

[rosends]

In the classic text, Derech Hashem (The Way of God), Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, goes as far as stating that there can even be a "more highly perfected Tzaddik," who can not only atone for his generation but even for all the generations of men:


The following Zohar passage speaks of a Tzaddik dying for the sins of others, specifically calling him "the arm." By the shed blood of this "arm," healing is brought to the rest of "the body," which is said to be mankind. The text also says that God smites one righteous man to bring atonement for all men of his generation, and associates this man with the servant of Isaiah, chapter 53, a classic (and often disputed) Messianic passage:


(See "Connection to Yom Kippur" below for more on the last sentence of the above section.)

Isaiah chapter 53 (quoted above) begins with a mention of the "arm of the Lord":

Oof -- then you don't understand the context in which the authors understood the idea. Judaism specifically doesn't have the idea of vicarious atonement. It has the idea of suffering in orrder to inspire others to repent. The death of a tzaddik drives the generation to repent and recognize its loss. Since you see everything through the Jesus lens, you misunderstand both the Zohar and Luzzato. Unsurprising, really.

And if you really understood Is 53, and were clear on who was speaking in the text you cited, you would not draw the conclusion you have drawn. You seem to be snipping little bits and trying to piece together a world view, but that doesn't work if you learn the whole thing.

 

[BreezeWood]

breezie---you raise an interesting NON-POINT. I know of no religion that does not address
the issue of some sort of "divine" assessment of the MORTAL JOURNEY

the disparity between those two religions distinguishes their differences were a clarity ever made per the journeys beginning objective - the initial rendering is identical as presented by the liar moses or the conclave that wrote their journal. deceit than choice.

for the religion of antiquity before the journey was a deliberate decision granted a&e upon their request for self determination as the reason for their remission to paradise as equal among those that came before them.

 

[TruthNotBS]

this is, indeed, your claim. It is contradicted by text, but whatever...

It's not contradicted by text. Yehoshua is the incarnation of the Sar Gadol. He is Mashiach and through Him, we are redeemed.

 

[BreezeWood]

Many rabbis agree with me, that Adam introduced corruption.

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

the very reason for their journey was to absolve themselves of servitude ... christian - (no such thing).

 

[TruthNotBS]

Oof -- then you don't understand the context in which the authors understood the idea. Judaism specifically doesn't have the idea of vicarious atonement. It has the idea of suffering in orrder to inspire others to repent. The death of a tzaddik drives the generation to repent and recognize its loss. Since you see everything through the Jesus lens, you misunderstand both the Zohar and Luzzato. Unsurprising, really.

And if you really understood Is 53, and were clear on who was speaking in the text you cited, you would not draw the conclusion you have drawn. You seem to be snipping little bits and trying to piece together a world view, but that doesn't work if you learn the whole thing.

The RAMCHAL, didn't say that the high tzadick, simply inspires others to repent, but rather that his suffering has a direct cosmic effect, cleansing creation of its corruption.

Ezekiel 4:4-6. The passage reads (New International Version):

"4 Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. 5 I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. 6 After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the people of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year."

The concept of "bearing the sin" of another is in the Hebrew Bible. When the Bible states otherwise, it's referring to a parent being condemned for the sins of their wicked children or children being condemned before the court, for the sins of their parents. That doesn't imply that a person can't bear the sin of another if that person is divinely appointed and empowered to do that.

 

[Hawkins]

This is closely tied to how a truth shall convey among humans. The US government can choose CNN as its dedicated media for government annonouncments to be released to the public. CNN has the obligation to idenify their sources of news which are subsequently from the claims of eyewitnesses. When such a media chose to lie about the election, then the US government may swtich its media from CNN to, say Fox News.

Similarly, the Jews as God's chosen media has the responsibility to identify the prophets from God. If they failed the role, God can switch His media from Judaism to Christianity.

One more characteristic is that when the US government tries to make an annonuncement to the public, it demands its media to broadcast towards all the states of America, not just Indiana or Texas. Similarly, when God has a message to annonounce, explicitly the gospel shall be preached to all nations. Christianity thus is the only true religion as other religions never had such a demand on who the message shall convey.

 

[rosends]

Read Derech Hashem, written by the RAMCHAL, the founder of the Musar movement. He admits that through the sin of Adam, creation became "שחיתות" (Shchitut), corrupt. Many rabbis agree with me, that Adam introduced corruption. We are consigned to disease and death, due to the failure of the first Adam. Messiah is the second Adam, the Highest of the Tzadikim. He purges, and cleanses creation, including the human soul, through His martyrdom. He was perfect, so death had no authority over him. hence he rose from the dead. In him, we are redeemed.

Adam didn't introduce anything. Adam's sin increased the deficiencies in man making it more difficult to return to the pre-sin state. There were (according to the Ramchal) already deficiencies in man before hand but their nature made it possible to resist them. ("אמנם ע״י חטאו נוספו ונתרבו חסרונות בעצמו של אדם") In fact, he says that the change in Adam was about internalizing extant external "darkness" (ונכלל מן החשך והעכירות שיעור גדול) not about introducing anything. So the continued lowered status of mankind is a consequence of a change in the nature of people and it is our task to rise back and above these temptations and deficiencies ("שיתחזקו וישתדלו להתעלות מן המדריגה השפלה ולשים עצמם במדריגה העליונה"). He does talk about corruptions (הקלקולים) that beset cetain generations as they did not resist the temptations, and embraced these new deficiencies and how as generations proceeded with more and more of these corruptions, we now find ourselves today.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Adam didn't introduce anything. Adam's sin increased the deficiencies in man making it more difficult to return to the pre-sin state. There were (according to the Ramchal) already deficiencies in man before hand but their nature made it possible to resist them. ("אמנם ע״י חטאו נוספו ונתרבו חסרונות בעצמו של אדם") In fact, he says that the change in Adam was about internalizing extant external "darkness" (ונכלל מן החשך והעכירות שיעור גדול) not about introducing anything. So the continued lowered status of mankind is a consequence of a change in the nature of people and it is our task to rise back and above these temptations and deficiencies ("שיתחזקו וישתדלו להתעלות מן המדריגה השפלה ולשים עצמם במדריגה העליונה"). He does talk about corruptions (הקלקולים) that beset cetain generations as they did not resist the temptations, and embraced these new deficiencies and how as generations proceeded with more and more of these corruptions, we now find ourselves today.

It's pretty clear what the RAMCHAL says, anyone can read it. The High Tzadick's suffering initiates or is the catalyst for redemption. He facilitates Tikkun Olam. Jesus/Yehoshua is the highest of Tzadickim because He is the incarnation of the High Prince of Heaven or Sar Gadol. The Archangel Michael is the Prince of Heaven, the Son of YHWH. The house of David will become like God, and it is through the Messiah. The incarnation of the Sar Gadol.