Which caliber is best for stopping a crook? Pistol, rifle or shotgun?

[2aguy]

A victim is a victim is a victim.

That is just fucking stupid......

Criminals are the majority of gun murder victims...their friends and family are the next highest number....

Normal gun owners are not shooting each other, or getting shot.....

To not explain this, as your link fails to do....is lying...in order to promote gun control.

 

[Unkotare]

A Bible.

 

[2aguy]

I did read it. Victims are more likely to get shot when carrying guns.
“Overall, Branas’s study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.”

Read more: Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

Victims are not just victims when they are criminals ....


Baltimore...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-ci-2017-homicide-data-breakdown-20180103-story.html



About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.

----

The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.

Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.

Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.


=============

Chicago..


Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attac...cagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf


1/19/17 Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C






Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016.

The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent).
And now the shooters . . .

Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest.


The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests.
Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
============================


12/27/16 Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated


Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims

Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.

"We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.

--------------
The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."

And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....

"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.
=

 

[Dagosa]

That is just fucking stupid......

Criminals are the majority of gun murder victims...their friends and family are the next highest number....

Normal gun owners are not shooting each other, or getting shot.....

To not explain this, as your link fails to do....is lying...in order to promote gun control.

Youre logic effin stupid. You think just because you’re a non criminal you won’t get shot if you pull a gun in a confrontation, that’s “ stupid”. What, you wear a sign saying “ I’m not a criminal but I’m armed . So leave me alone.”

 

[2aguy]

Let’s see your reference.

Here....

Most murder victims in big cities have criminal record

A review of murder statistics across America shows that in many large cities, up to 90 percent of the victims have criminal records.
-------
The report concludes that “of the 2011 homicide victims, 77 percent (66) had a least one prior arrest and of the known 2011 homicide suspects 90 percent (74) had at least one prior arrest.”
----------
In early 2012, after pressure put on the police by murder victims’ families in New Orleans, the police department stopped revealing whether or not the murder victim had a prior record.
---------------
Though data is no longer published in Baltimore, USA Today reported in 2007 that 91 percent of the then-205 murder victims in the city between Jan. 1 and Aug. 31, 2007, had criminal records.
---------
A WND review of the Philadelphia Police Department Murder and Shooting Analysis for 2011 shows a similar pattern to that of other large cities in America – a majority of the murder victims have prior records.

--------
In Philadelphia in 2011, of 324 murders, 81 percent (263) of the victims had at least one prior arrest; 62 percent (164) had been arrested for a violent crime prior to their murder.
----------
In Newark, N.J., long considered one of America’s most dangerous cities, 85 percent of the 165 murder victims between 2009 and 2010 had serious arrest histories.
Anthony Braga, a professor with the Rutgers-Newark School of Criminal Justice, told the Newark Star-Ledger that 85 percent of 165 murder victims in Newark between 2009 and 2010 had been arrested at least once before they were killed.
Those victims, he said, had, on average, 10 prior arrests on their criminal records.
A WND review of the Chicago Police Department Murder Analysis reports from 2003 to 2011 provides a statistical breakdown of the demographics of both the victims and offenders in the 4,265 murders in Chicago over that time period.


***************

Public Health Pot Shots




These and other studies funded by the CDC focus on the presence or absence of guns, rather than the characteristics of the people who use them. Indeed, the CDC's Rosenberg claims in the journalEducational Horizons that murderers are "ourselves--ordinary citizens, professionals, even health care workers": people who kill only because a gun happens to be available.

Yet if there is one fact that has been incontestably established by homicide studies, it's that murderers are not ordinary gun owners but extreme aberrants whose life histories include drug abuse, serious accidents, felonies, and irrational violence.

Unlike "ourselves," roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have significant criminal records, averaging an adult criminal career of six or more years with four major felonies.


Access to juvenile records would almost certainly show that the criminal careers of murderers stretch back into their adolescence. In Murder in America (1994), the criminologists Ronald W. Holmes and Stephen T. Holmes report that murderers generally "have histories of committing personal violence in childhood, against other children, siblings, and small animals."

Murderers who don't have criminal records usually have histories of psychiatric treatment or domestic violence that did not lead to arrest.
Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique.

According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history."
A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

-------As the English gun control analyst Colin Greenwood has noted, in any society there are always enough guns available, legally or illegally, to arm the violent. The true determinant of violence is the number of violent people, not the availability of a particular weapon. Guns contribute to murder in the trivial sense that they help violent people kill. But owning guns does not turn responsible, law-abiding people into killers. If the general availability of guns were as important a factor in violence as the CDC implies, the vast increase in firearm ownership during the past two decades should have led to a vast increase in homicide. The CDC suggested just that in a 1989 report to Congress, where it asserted that "ince the early 1970s the year-to-year fluctuations in firearm availability has [sic] paralleled the numbers of homicides."
-----


Here.....Chicago...


Chicago police boss calls weekend gun violence 'completely unacceptable'

At an unrelated news conference Monday on the city's Southwest Side, Johnson brought up the Mother's Day weekend violence himself in his prepared remarks. He focused his remarks on how much of the bloodshed is being driven by about 1,300 individuals on the Police Department's "strategic subject list" — those believed to be most prone to violence as a victim or offender.

About 78 percent of the homicide victims and about 84 percent of the nonfatal shooting victims this weekend were on the list, he said.

"That means essentially we know who they are," he told reporters at 50th Street and South Karlov Avenue, where a Chicago police officer fatally shot a bank robbery suspect on Monday. "Oftentimes, they have gang affiliations, and many have had previous arrests and convictions."
----------
He then ticked off nearly 10 examples of how many arrests these victims had on their records, ranging from 20 each all the way up to 41.
5/7/16 Australian murder report p.20 criminals commit murder...

http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/mr/mr01/mr01.pdf

Criminal history Figure 18 shows that in 2006–07, a significant proportion both of homicide offenders and of homicide victims had a criminal history. Nearly two-thirds of male offenders and half of female offenders had a prior criminal history. Half of male victims too had a criminal history, as did a quarter of female victims. These ratios have changed little throughout the years of monitoring. In 2006–07, the most common prior criminal history of offenders constituted ‘other assault’, property, and ‘other’ offences. ‘Other’ encompasses crimes such as fraud and traffic violations. Recidivist homicide offending was very low in 2006–07, with only two percent of offenders having a prior conviction of homicide. The high incidence of a prior criminal history of ‘other assault’ suggests that homicide is often not an isolated incident of violence but part of a longer-term pattern of violent behaviour. Of interest, little difference exists between the sexes of homicide offenders in this respect.

-------

Roy Exum: How We Stop The Bullets

David Kennedy, a renowned criminal justice professor and co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities, believes that places like the 1500 block of East 50th Street where Deontrey was killed, or Central Avenue where two other Chattanoogans were shot around the same time, aren’t necessarily bad areas. Good people live in those areas, just as the overwhelming numbers of those who live in our inner city are decent and law-abiding citizens.

No, our new focus isn’t on neighborhoods like Alton Park or East Chattanooga but instead on “hot” places” and “hot” people. In an article entitled, “The Story Behind the Nation’s Falling Body Count,” Kennedy writes, “Research on hot spots shows violence to be concentrated in ‘micro’ places, rather than ‘dangerous neighborhoods,’ as the popular idea goes. Blocks, corners, and buildings representing just five or six percent of an entire city will drive half of its serious crime.”

The same is true about people. “We now know that homicide and gun violence are overwhelmingly concentrated among serious offenders operating in groups: gangs, drug crews, and the like representing under half of one percent of a city's population who commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”

Read it once more: “ … under half of one percent … commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”

It is vitally important for us to realize the recent “worst of the worst” roundup had very little to do with race, yet to the uninformed it clearly appeared that only blacks were targeted.

Try to forget that all were black and focus instead on the far greater fact – there is ample evidence that each is alleged to be a serious criminal.

Kennedy writes, “We also know some reliable predictors of risk: individuals who have a history of violence or a close connection with prior victims are far more likely to be involved in violence themselves.


Hot groups and people are so hot that when their offending is statistically abstracted, their neighborhoods cease to be dangerous. Their communities aren't dangerous; (these criminals) are.”

------------------------------------

PolitiFact - 85 percent of shooting suspects and victims in Milwaukee have "extensive criminal record," police chief says
Non-fatal shootings:

In non-fatal shootings in 2011, 97 percent of the 177 suspects and 86 percent of the 473 victims had at least one prior arrest. The report doesn’t say how many.

However, O’Brien said a closer analysis of non-fatal shootings during a six-week period in July and August 2011, when non-fatal shootings increased, found that suspects had an average of 7.5 prior arrests and victims had an average of about six. O’Brien said that based on her past studies, she would expect that the rest of the suspects and victims in the non-fatal shootings in 2011 had a similar number of prior arrests.

So, more than 85 percent of the people involved in non-fatal shootings had at least one prior arrest. And there’s a strong indication, though not complete numbers, that most people involved in the non-fatal shootings had at least several prior arrests.

Homicides:

For all homicides in 2011 -- those involving guns and those that didn’t -- 57 percent of the 72 suspects and 62 percent of the 66 homicide victims had at least six prior arrests.

O’Brien said that based on past studies she has done, most homicides involve guns and it’s unlikely that arrest records would vary greatly between the people involved in shooting homicides versus non-shooting homicides.

So, a clear majority, but less than 85 percent, of the people involved in fatal shootings likely had at least six prior arrests; although, again, the study doesn’t provide hard numbers on that point.

We asked James Alan Fox, a criminology, law and public policy professor at Northeastern University in Boston, about Flynn’s claim. He said from a national perspective, most shootings involve people with an arrest history, although he couldn’t say how extensive that history is for the typical shooting suspect or victim.

Our rating

Flynn said 85 percent of Milwaukee shootings "are people with extensive criminal records shooting other people with extensive criminal records."

The thrust of his statement -- that the vast majority of shooting suspects and victims have a criminal history, is accurate. But he made a specific statistical claim that isn’t fully supported by the study he cites. And as compared with charges or convictions, prior arrests as a measure of a person’s criminal record is on the lower end of the scale.
-----
When Gun Violence Felt Like a Disease, a City in Delaware Turned to the C.D.C. (Published 2015)



When epidemiologists from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention came to this city, they were not here to track an outbreak of meningitis or study the effectiveness of a particular vaccine.

They were here to examine gun violence.

This city of about 70,000 had a 45 percent jump in shootings from 2011 to 2013, and the violence has remained stubbornly high; 25 shooting deaths have been reported this year, slightly more than last year, according to the mayor’s office
.-------



The final report, which has been submitted to the state, reached a conclusion that many here said they already knew: that there are certain patterns in the lives of many who commit gun violence.

“The majority of individuals involved in urban firearm violence are young men with substantial violence involvement preceding the more serious offense of a firearm crime,”


the report said. “Our findings suggest that integrating data systems could help these individuals better receive the early, comprehensive help that they need to prevent violence involvement.”

Researchers analyzed data on 569 people charged with firearm crimes from 2009 to May 21, 2014, and looked for certain risk factors in their lives, such as whether they had been unemployed, had received help from assistance programs, had been possible victims of child abuse, or had been shot or stabbed. The idea was to show that linking such data could create a better understanding of who might need help before becoming involved in violence.
--------

Beyond Gun Control

Lost in the debate is that even in high-crime cities, the risk of gun violence is mostly concentrated among a small number of men. In Oakland, for instance, crime experts working with the police department a few years ago found that about 1,000 active members of a few dozen street groups drove most homicides. That’s .3 percent of Oakland’s population. And even within this subgroup, risk fluctuated according to feuds and other beefs. In practical terms, the experts found that over a given stretch of several months only about 50 to 100 men are at the highest risk of shooting someone or getting shot.

Most of these men have criminal records. But it’s not drug deals or turf wars that drives most of the shootings.

Instead, the violence often starts with what seems to outsiders like trivial stuff—“a fight over a girlfriend, a couple of words, a dispute over a dice game,” said Vaughn Crandall, a senior strategist at the California Partnership for Safe Communities, which did the homicide analysis for Oakland.

 

[2aguy]

Youre logic effin stupid. You think just because you’re a non criminal you won’t get shot if you pull a gun in a confrontation, that’s “ stupid”. What, you wear a sign saying “ I’m not a criminal but I’m armed . So leave me alone.”

Did I say that...no, you idiot...

What I did say?...... is that your link is lying........the majority of victims of gun murder are not normal people who carry or use guns for self defense...the majority of gun murder victims are criminals murdered by other criminals.......and of the rest of the gun murder victims the majority of those are the friends and family of the criminal hit by the bullets meant for the criminal.....

 

[2aguy]

Youre logic effin stupid. You think just because you’re a non criminal you won’t get shot if you pull a gun in a confrontation, that’s “ stupid”. What, you wear a sign saying “ I’m not a criminal but I’m armed . So leave me alone.”

I know...I ruined your post and your link with actual facts, truth and reality....you can't take it....so you make up something I didn't say....

 

[Blues Man]

Youre logic effin stupid. You think just because you’re a non criminal you won’t get shot if you pull a gun in a confrontation, that’s “ stupid”. What, you wear a sign saying “ I’m not a criminal but I’m armed . So leave me alone.”

If you use stats for people who are LEGALLY carrying a concealed weapon your entire argument falls apart.

When you include people ILLEGALLY carrying concealed weapons all you prove is that criminals commit crimes

 

[2aguy]

If you use stats for people who are LEGALLY carrying a concealed weapon your entire argument falls apart.

When you include people ILLEGALLY carrying concealed weapons all you prove is that criminals commit crimes

Exactly, which is why his source didn't state who was carrying the guns....

 

[Dagosa]

If you use stats for people who are LEGALLY carrying a concealed weapon your entire argument falls apart.

When you include people ILLEGALLY carrying concealed weapons all you prove is that criminals commit crimes

Well, where are they ?

 

[Man of Ethics]

So then why claim the UK has a lower crime rate?

And there are a lot of other violent crimes besides murder.

A simple assault in one jurisdiction may be aggravated assault in another. Thus, crime rate is very difficult to measure.

 

[Man of Ethics]

Wrong...

We thought Bier’s points were reasonable, so we tried to replicate his approach. We looked at the raw violent crime numbers for each country, using statistics for England and Wales for 2012 and for the United States for 2011, in a way that sought to compare apples to apples. (We should note that the United Kingdom includes Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the numbers in the meme appear to be based only on crime in England and Wales, which are calculated separately.)

For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does

The debate over gun policy has inspired a blizzard of messages on social media, from both supporters and opponents of gu

www.politifact.com

Different jurisdictions have different definitions of Sexual Assault. Aggravated Assault in one jurisdiction may be simple assault in another.

 

[Dagosa]

If you use stats for people who are LEGALLY carrying a concealed weapon your entire argument falls apart.

When you include people ILLEGALLY carrying concealed weapons all you prove is that criminals commit crimes

Who legally can carry and who can’t is strictly a state law, other then being a convicted felon and being under aged. The idea that criminals have all been convicted previously and there fore can be easily determined is ridiculous. All people engaged in criminal behavior ARE NOT CONVICTED felons so that idea is all wet. Criminals about to commit crimes with weapons don’t care who pulls a firearm in retaliation. They will more likely shoot you then if you don’t. That’s why it’s pretty cut and dry. You carry a firearm, you’re more likely to get shot yourself. To claim otherwise completely defies logic.
The stats speak for themselves. I have a permit and I carry regularly given where I live, if I go into town, the weapon stays home. Why ? Because the stats don’t lie.

 

[Blues Man]

Well, where are they ?

Concealed Carry Facts and Fiction | Gun Facts and Fiction | USCCA

The USCCA has compiled the top myths about concealed carry permit holders and sorted out the fact from the fiction. Our goal is to provide sound and objective information.

www.usconcealedcarry.com

 

[2aguy]

Who legally can carry and who can’t is strictly a state law, other then being a convicted felon and being under aged. The idea that criminals have all been convicted previously and there fore can be easily determined is ridiculous. All people engaged in criminal behavior ARE NOT CONVICTED felons so that idea is all wet. Criminals about to commit crimes with weapons don’t care who pulls a firearm in retaliation. They will more likely shoot you then if you don’t. That’s why it’s pretty cut and dry. You carry a firearm, you’re more likely to get shot yourself. To claim otherwise completely defies logic.
The stats speak for themselves. I have a permit and I carry regularly given where I live, if I go into town, the weapon stays home. Why ? Because the stats don’t lie.

Wrong. Most criminals arent in it to fight a gun fight and run away when a gun is revealed or drawn by a normal citizen. That is how you have 1.2 million defensive gun uses on average each year, according to the CDC, but inly about 258 dead criminals each year.

You dont understand human nature or human history.

 

[Mac-7]

The phrase "stopping a crook" has several meanings and several venues. Most firearm related incidents that "stop a crook" involve the mere brandishing of a weapon. As far as a homeowner confronting a potential burglar in the middle of the night nothing does it better than the big muzzle of a shotgun. You can get a single barrel shotgun for a reasonable price and cut the barrel down to a legal federal limit and load that bad boy up with #4 duck loads and you have a kickass weapon.

Better yet get a pump and rack the slide

Even the dumbest crook knows what that sound represents

 

[Blues Man]

A simple assault in one jurisdiction may be aggravated assault in another. Thus, crime rate is very difficult to measure.

And yet you claimed that the UK has a lower crime rate.

 

[Blues Man]

Who legally can carry and who can’t is strictly a state law, other then being a convicted felon and being under aged. The idea that criminals have all been convicted previously and there fore can be easily determined is ridiculous. All people engaged in criminal behavior ARE NOT CONVICTED felons so that idea is all wet. Criminals about to commit crimes with weapons don’t care who pulls a firearm in retaliation. They will more likely shoot you then if you don’t. That’s why it’s pretty cut and dry. You carry a firearm, you’re more likely to get shot yourself. To claim otherwise completely defies logic.
The stats speak for themselves. I have a permit and I carry regularly given where I live, if I go into town, the weapon stays home. Why ? Because the stats don’t lie.

The fact is that people who legally carry concealed weapons are some of the most law abiding people in the country. Stats don't lie.

 

[Man of Ethics]

And yet you claimed that the UK has a lower crime rate.

OK, UK has lower murder rate. I do not know how can crime rate be measured.

 

[Dagosa]

The fact is that people who legally carry concealed weapons are some of the most law abiding people in the country. Stats don't lie.

What stats are those?