Where do moral laws come from?

[ding]

You don't believe in absolute moral behavior do you? There is your proof.

Show me a progressive who has made that claim

You have. You believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. All behaviors can be any behavior, even those that are diametrically opposed. Such as humility and arrogance; forgiveness and vindictiveness; thankfulness and thanklessness.

Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

Show me where I have ever made such a statement

In post #266. Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

Have you always struggled with understanding context?

Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I think it this case it was the latter. Have you always struggled to answer simple questions like, do you believe that behaviors like humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

 

[ding]

You claim that successful behaviors don't lead to success, right?

Here is the problem as I see it... you're now trying to somehow equate "successful behavior" with this "universal morality" you claimed. There is no correlation. Successful behavior doesn't have to be necessarily moral. Moral behavior doesn't have to necessarily be successful. A drug lord can be all kinds of successful but what he does is highly immoral.

So, allow me to try and help your OP argument a little here.... I've been critical because I think you're not actually articulating this the right way. What you are trying to get across is not necessarily wrong it's just not as you've tried to convey it.

I am a Spiritualist. I don't belong to a religion, I don't believe in any organized religious incarnation of God. I do believe in God but my interpretation of God is Spiritual Energy. This is an unseen natural force coursing through our universe of physical reality. It is essentially what directs humans toward good and away from evil.... toward the light and away from the dark. Did it "exist" before time and space? It's inconsequential because it applies to physical reality within time and space.... it doesn't matter if it did or didn't exist. The SOURCE is Spiritual Energy and the cool thing about that is, it CAN exist beyond and before the physical... in fact, I believe that's what created the physical.

Morals are simply rules established by man, usually through spiritual understanding. There is no "universal morality" because man is flawed and incapable of establishing such a thing. Truth is never known.... we can't KNOW anything absolutely... we're humans. We can believe we know and that is all. Billy Graham certainly believes he is going to heaven... BUT... until he dies and actually goes there, he doesn't KNOW.

Yes, I am. Take any virtue you want and compare it to its antithesis and you should be able to understand what I am saying.

Two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people. Not some of the time, all of the time. We could down the list if you like; thankfulness, kindness, generosity, humility, forgiveness, etc. These values bring peace and harmony to lives and success naturally follows. The antithesis of these values wreaks havoc and chaos in lives and failure naturally follows.

Again, I understand what you are trying to say, I just disagree with the phraseology. Virtuousness, like morality, changes with time and culture. It has nothing to do with any "universal truth" and everything to do with man's definitions. Two honest people will NOT always have a better relationship because complete and unfettered honesty is sometimes very brutal and people can't handle it. All the things in your list of values are internal things that can't be measured by others. We don't have little bars above our heads to show how thankful we genuinely are, how much kindness is emanating or generosity being conveyed. People are disingenuous all the time. Sometimes, there are even people who convince themselves they are behaving according to these values when they are doing anything but.... a sociopath, for example. They may think they are the kindest, most generous, humble and thankful person on the planet while they're stealing your identity and draining your bank account. So, all these things are subjective values that are internalized and we have no way of measuring them in a physical way. If we cannot measure them, there is no way of determining how much they have an effect on failure or success in any given case. We can assume things and we often do.

I agree with you in concept, I just think you are phrasing it incorrectly. I think there IS a universal spiritual course we are inclined toward that is positive as opposed to negative. But that is about as close as I can come to agreeing with what you've stated because man-made "morals and virtues" are sometimes misguided and incorrect. There is nothing universal about that, if there were, we could all recognize that and live in a perfect world. Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world.

Then look past our differences in phraseology. Look past the exceptions. Find the universal truth that does exist and has always existed. Moral laws are not like physical laws, but they are laws nonetheless which do have consequences.

 

[Mudda]

Moral laws are subjective and arise out of need, not always good, like in Islam.

 

[Iceweasel]

The fact is that wikipedia is open sourced and only as good as the last guy that dicked around with it. Only fools use it for anything serious.

Sure, did you find anything that was inaccurate in the specific link I provided?

The fact is that wikipedia is open sourced and only as good as the last guy that dicked around with it. Only fools use it for anything serious.

No. Only fools dismiss information without vetting information. You must be one of those guys who throw babies out with bathwater instead of just draining the bathwater.

Only fools use open sourced information. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something like morality. You can't even begin to back up your wild claims.

I didn't use it for morality and I have backed up everything I have said. What is it that you believe I have not backed up?

How did you support morality existed before man? Wikipedia? The founders (who differed greatly)? You're stupid and insane, that's all you proved.

 

[Iceweasel]

I did indeed.

"You're flat out insane, you see words that are not there."

So then when you are successful it is because you cheated or were lucky?

Huh? When did I mention my success? "You're flat out insane, you see words that are not there."

You didn't dumbass. I am asking you the question to prove how much of a dumbass you are. You claim that successful behaviors don't lead to success, right? So how do you explain your success (assuming you have had any)? Because if you didn't earn what you did, work or relationships, then you only got it because you cheated or were lucky. So which is it?

I made no such claim Dingus. I said you were insane.

I asked you where your moral high standards was regarding legal consent for sex and you can't answer it so you think you childish game will work? LOL, go back to wikipedia, it's about your speed.

Is that your basis for denying that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure? Really? Everything hinges on that?

I repeat: I asked you where your moral high standards was regarding legal consent for sex and you can't answer it.

 

[Iceweasel]

Do you believe you have been successful? If so, why do you believe you have been successful? Is it because of luck? Did you cheat? Or was it something you did? The way you did it?

You're just repeating yourself and ignoring what you can't answer. All we can do at this point is make fun of you.

 

[Iceweasel]

Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I think it this case it was the latter. Have you always struggled to answer simple questions like, do you believe that behaviors like humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

What is the moral high ground for the age of consent? You haven't answered that yet. It illustrates that there is none, you just pretended.

 

[rightwinger]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

 

[Boss]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

What we don't need are social fart stains mocking God.

 

[rightwinger]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

What we don't need are social fart stains mocking God.

Gods a big boy.......he can take it

<I don't have to worry about him killing my first born son, do I?>

 

[ding]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

Morals exist independent of man. We know this because of the consequences of behavior.

 

[ding]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

What we don't need are social fart stains mocking God.

Gods a big boy.......he can take it

<I don't have to worry about him killing my first born son, do I?>

Absolutely, that isn't why men of good will should care. Men of good will should care because freedom and liberty rest upon the pillars of virtue and freedom and shit stains want to destroy freedom and liberty.

 

[ding]

Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I think it this case it was the latter. Have you always struggled to answer simple questions like, do you believe that behaviors like humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

What is the moral high ground for the age of consent? You haven't answered that yet. It illustrates that there is none, you just pretended.

Tell you what you tell me what that standard is and if I can't find a higher standard than that I will agree. Until then, know that you serve the purpose of shit stains who wish to destroy freedom and liberty.

 

[rightwinger]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

Morals exist independent of man. We know this because of the consequences of behavior.

There can be no morals unless applied to man
Consequences of behavior come from man

 

[rightwinger]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

What we don't need are social fart stains mocking God.

Gods a big boy.......he can take it

<I don't have to worry about him killing my first born son, do I?>

Absolutely, that isn't why men of good will should care. Men of good will should care because freedom and liberty rest upon the pillars of virtue and freedom and shit stains want to destroy freedom and liberty.

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

 

[ding]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

Morals exist independent of man. We know this because of the consequences of behavior.

There can be no morals unless applied to man
Consequences of behavior come from man

Yes and yes. Cause and effect. Do you believe that behaviors like humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

 

[ding]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

What we don't need are social fart stains mocking God.

Gods a big boy.......he can take it

<I don't have to worry about him killing my first born son, do I?>

Absolutely, that isn't why men of good will should care. Men of good will should care because freedom and liberty rest upon the pillars of virtue and freedom and shit stains want to destroy freedom and liberty.

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

At the risk of some idiot insulting our Founding Fathers again, let's look at what good ole George Washington had to say about morality and religion, shall we?

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

 

[rightwinger]

Our morality comes from man

We don't need a magic man in the sky to make them for us

What we don't need are social fart stains mocking God.

Gods a big boy.......he can take it

<I don't have to worry about him killing my first born son, do I?>

Absolutely, that isn't why men of good will should care. Men of good will should care because freedom and liberty rest upon the pillars of virtue and freedom and shit stains want to destroy freedom and liberty.

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

At the risk of some idiot insulting our Founding Fathers again, let's look at what good ole George Washington had to say about morality and religion, shall we?

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

BFD

Washington endorsed religion. Has nothing to do with your topic

 

[rightwinger]

To be honest....God does not do a good job with morality

And our society exhibits higher morality than our religious zealots

 

[ding]

What we don't need are social fart stains mocking God.

Gods a big boy.......he can take it

<I don't have to worry about him killing my first born son, do I?>

Absolutely, that isn't why men of good will should care. Men of good will should care because freedom and liberty rest upon the pillars of virtue and freedom and shit stains want to destroy freedom and liberty.

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

At the risk of some idiot insulting our Founding Fathers again, let's look at what good ole George Washington had to say about morality and religion, shall we?

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796
“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

BFD

Washington endorsed religion. Has nothing to do with your topic

It does about the offshoot of the discussion....

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens...” The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

John Adams, “Letter to Zabdiel Adams, Philadelphia, 21 June 1776”
“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.” John Adams Letter of June 21, 1776, quoted in The Wall Builder Report, Summer 1993 The Works of John Adams – Second President of theUnited States, ed. Charles Francis Adams (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1854), 9:401.

Samuel Adams Letter to John Trumbull, October 16, 1778
“Religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness.” Paul H. Smith, Gerard W. Gawalt, Rosemary Fry Plakes, et. al., Letters of Delegates to Congress, 1774-1789, volume 11, October 1 1778-January 31 1779.

Patrick Henry Letter to Archibald Blair, January 8, 1799
“The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor…and this alone, that renders us invincible.” Moses Coit Tyler, Patrick Henry (New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1898; reprint, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1962), 409.


Benjamin Rush Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798
“The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.” (Philadelphia: Thomas and Samuel F. Bradford, 1798), 8.