When man tells God, you can't....

[Meriweather]

There's no reason for Jesus to have TWO DIFFERENT PATERNAL GRANDFATHERS

Already explained. "Son of" can cover more than one generation of descendants. For example, each person has four great-grandfathers. There were no words for grandfathers or great-grandfathers in Hebrew. The word for any descendant was Son of. Therefore, Joseph would have been the son of his father (A), the son of his grandfathers (B, C) the son of his great-grandfathers (D, E, F, G), even the son of his great-great grandfathers (H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P). Generations of those less noteworthy were also skipped. Within two generations, the son was called the son of three men. Within five, he would have been the son of sixteen men). In place of 'son' the word 'descendant' would be the more accurate designation. Now do you understand why genealogies differed? It appears Matthew and Luke followed separate family trees--and if we ever find works of fourteen other authors, we could easily have fourteen additional family trees. That is the way it works in our own families today.

 

[Meriweather]

Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is often the right one.

Exactly. And anyone familiar with genealogy will confirm I am correct that there are many direct branches in any family tree. They will also confirm that some genealogies "collapse' generations so it appears a descendant is a closer relationship to a particular ancestor.

 

[Meriweather]

would you really care what he had to say?

Yes. And I am guessing that the reason you do not care what he had to say is because of some of the supernatural events around his life.

 

[JoeB131]

Back in Biblical times, the reason people made and bought graven images is because they were thought to contain the power of that image, and were being worshiped. The Commandment was only one God, so no other gods, meaning no graven images were to be worshiped. (No one was worshiping the cherubs engraved on the Ark.)

That kind of sounds like the same reasoning the Church has for all the graven images they have. Naked Jesus on a stick, the "Virgin" (snicker) Mary, and of course, all the saints.

We were taking one of my nieces to be baptized, not because my brother and his crazy wife believe in that stuff, but because they wanted the option of sending her to a Catholic School. (They didn't). So my brother points out a statue of St. Joseph, and I make the joke, "Only My Patron Saint would have bought THAT story."

Statuary as art work or a portrait of an person, animal, or thing and not something that is worshiped due to presumed inherent power. Using a candle or object to focus one's attention on a prayer is quite different from worshiping said object, or believing said object has power. No one needs statuary any more than anyone needs a portrait of a loved one. For some, needed or not, they are still nice to have.

Actually, it sounds like more Catholic Bullshit about how they will just do what they want. The statues are there to help the stupids visual what they are worshiping, period.

 

[JoeB131]

Exactly. And anyone familiar with genealogy will confirm I am correct that there are many direct branches in any family tree. They will also confirm that some genealogies "collapse' generations so it appears a descendant is a closer relationship to a particular ancestor.

Holy shit, I can't believe you just tried to make an excuse for that.

The thing is, the only two people that Luke and Matthew agree upon are Joseph and David. That's it. They don't even agree on what son of David Jesus was descended through. (Matt tracks through the line of Kings while Luke has the good sense to use a more obscure linage. Probably a good thing, too, since Matthew gets the lineage wrong when he cribbed it from Chronicles. He also spells a bunch of the names wrong.

In fact, nearly all of Matthew is an attempt to cram a bunch of Hebrew and Zoroastrian prophecy into the Jesus Story to increase his street cred as the Messiah.

Yes. And I am guessing that the reason you do not care what he had to say is because of some of the supernatural events around his life.

Again, I don't think Jesus actually existed, I think he was a literary device that Saul of Tarses came up with to push his philosophy, and then other writers came in and filled in his backstory with a bunch of gospels that contradicted each other. Then the Romans picked the four Gospels with the least discrepancies that told the story they wanted to tell.

 

[JoeB131]

Already explained. "Son of" can cover more than one generation of descendants. For example, each person has four great-grandfathers. There were no words for grandfathers or great-grandfathers in Hebrew. The word for any descendant was Son of.

Except the two genealogies don't agree no any common ancestors except for Joseph and David.

 

[Meriweather]

Except the two genealogies don't agree no any common ancestors

Try doing branches on your own family tree. How many common ancestors do you have in any two branches? I have to go back ten generations to find a common ancestor between two branches because cousins married. Other than those two branches (out of hundreds) that, nary a common ancestor.

Joe, you do not believe in God, Jesus, virgin birth and that is fine. And it is very different from starting from there than starting from, "Oh, I don't believe because the genealogies don't match. Duh. People tracking different branches of the family tree aren't going to expect the find matches. It is the exception not the rule. Do your own family tree back that many generations and you will understand what I am saying.

If you don't care for statuary, not a problem, don't buy any of it. But telling others they are breaking God's law over your definition of graven images, is merely reaching for straws to present why not to believe. It is something a child might come up with, but it does not wash with adults.

 

[JoeB131]

Try doing branches on your own family tree. How many common ancestors do you have in any two branches? I have to go back ten generations to find a common ancestor between two branches because cousins married. Other than those two branches (out of hundreds) that, nary a common ancestor.

Actually, I have done family background on my family in Germany going back to the 16th Century. The Nazis insisted every German family do this to make sure there were no Jews there.

Which had nothing to do with the point, that Matt and Luke were just making that shit up.

Joe, you do not believe in God, Jesus, virgin birth and that is fine. And it is very different from starting from there than starting from, "Oh, I don't believe because the genealogies don't match. Duh. People tracking different branches of the family tree aren't going to expect the find matches. It is the exception not the rule. Do your own family tree back that many generations and you will understand what I am saying.

Or- get this - we can realize that something is a bullshit story if there are errors in the telling. Particularly Matthew's "Royal" geneology that has Jesus coming from a line of Kings.

If you don't care for statuary, not a problem, don't buy any of it. But telling others they are breaking God's law over your definition of graven images, is merely reaching for straws to present why not to believe. It is something a child might come up with, but it does not wash with adults.

But that's the whole point. The bible is REALLY CLEAR. No Graven Images. The problem is that you Catholics just kind of make it up as you go.... It's why you disneyfy the bible, a lot of the really juicy stories of human sacrifice and incest and other stuff.... they never teach that.

 

[Meriweather]

It's why you disneyfy the bible, a lot of the really juicy stories of human sacrifice and incest and other stuff.... they never teach that.

Hmmm. Then I wonder why it is that we two Catholics know all these stories? If no one taught us....

 

[LittleNipper]

When did this last murder take place? What was the name of the last person who died for not believing in Transubstantiation? Or, did you make this up? While you are looking up that bit of information, perhaps look up murder statistics on these other groups as well. Or, are you asserting only Christians ever killed anyone?

Christians do hold the record for killing people.... The Holocaust- all done by Christians. Colonialism, Imperialism, World Wars... All brought to you by Followers of Jesus.

Hey, you did hear about the Thirty Years War, when Protestants and Christians wiped out 8 million people across Europe over whether or not Jesus was made of wafers.

WHAT CHRISTIANS? Nazis were pagan evolutionists (survival of the fittest). One is not a Christian in any form of the term when one merely mixes the Word of GOD with Germanic fairy tales (what is the Aryan race anyway)--- calling it heritage and ritualism. How many babies are murdered/aborted in one year? How many people were murdered by Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong simply for disagreeing with Atheistic Communism. The pagan Japanese murdered 10,000,000 people at the early beginning of WWII simply because they viewed Chinese and Filipinos as inferior people. And Protestants are Christians. The 30 years war was over political control and the rule of the pope.

 

[JoeB131]

Hmmm. Then I wonder why it is that we two Catholics know all these stories? If no one taught us....

I went to Catholic School for 12 years, and never heard about Jephthah the Gileadite. You know, the guy who butchered his daughter because he made an oath to God he didn't quite think through. In fact, the entire book of Judges was glossed over, except for a Disney-fied retelling of Samson (who was actually kind of a terrorist more than a leader.)

 

[JoeB131]

Wow, here's a fun one.

Let's have fun with a stupid person... it always makes my morning.

WHAT CHRISTIANS? Nazis were pagan evolutionists (survival of the fittest). One is not a Christian in any form of the term when one merely mixes the Word of GOD with Germanic fairy tales (what is the Aryan race anyway)--- calling it heritage and ritualism.

The Nazis wore belt buckles that said, "God's with us" (Gott Mit Uns), not "Odin is Awesome" or "Darwin is Nifty".

How many babies are murdered/aborted in one year?

Fetuses aren't people, and Christians have most of them in this country.

How many people were murdered by Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong simply for disagreeing with Atheistic Communism.

Not as many as the Birchers run around claiming. You'd actually have to believe Russians were fucking like rabbits for the population of the USSR to have increased while millions were being killed.

The pagan Japanese murdered 10,000,000 people at the early beginning of WWII simply because they viewed Chinese and Filipinos as inferior people.

The problem with the Japanese is that they were emulating the Europeans. before the west forced open their country, they were peaceful and agrarian. Then they became militaristic and imperialistic so they wouldn't be conquered like the Chinese and Filipinos.

Speaking of the Filipinos, we killed 200,000 of them while calling them our "Little Brown Brothers". Not surprisingly, when the Japanese showed up, a lot of Filipinos were happy to join their Second Philippine Republic.

And Protestants are Christians. The 30 years war was over political control and the rule of the pope.

Exactly my point, they were killing each other over stupid theological arguments like Papal Authority and Transubstantiation.

 

[Meriweather]

I went to Catholic School for 12 years, and never heard about Jephthah the Gileadite. You know, the guy who butchered his daughter because he made an oath to God he didn't quite think through. In fact, the entire book of Judges was glossed over, except for a Disney-fied retelling of Samson (who was actually kind of a terrorist more than a leader.)

How many years did you attend Mass? Didn't you ever listen to the readings or talk about them in class? No discussion in your classes about making rash promises--and then actually carrying out a rash promise? Jephthah always featured prominently in that. At least he did at the Catholic School I attended.

Perhaps you paid more attention to Disney during your childhood? The description you give of your teachers sound more like Cruella DeVille and the wicked stepmothers, yet your description of your religion classes sound more like Bambi. Didn't you ever have Rabbis or Lutheran pastors as guests to discuss the Old Testament or the Protestant Reformation?

True, our focus did center mostly on the New Testament, which I thought more interesting than the Old Testament anyway. Walls of Jericho, the story of Jonah, and the story of the history of Hanukah were notable exceptions. I was a young adult before I could truly appreciate Isaiah (now one of my favorites) and Psalms.

 

[JoeB131]

How many years did you attend Mass? Didn't you ever listen to the readings or talk about them in class? No discussion in your classes about making rash promises--and then actually carrying out a rash promise? Jephthah always featured prominently in that. At least he did at the Catholic School I attended.

Actually, it wasn't discussed at all, and yes, I had to attend mass and religion classes for the whole agonizing 12 years I was exposed to Catholic "Education".

Jephthah's name never came up once.

The thing is, when apologists talk about old Jephy, they keep treating Yahweh like he's an innocent bystander. He knew how this was going to turn out, and he gave Jephy a victory over the Ammonites anyway (Where a lot of other people's children were slaughtered, but they totally had it coming, amiright?) So there should have been a point where God said to Jephy, "You know, I'm fine if you just sacrifice a cow". But nope, Jephy and his daughter were so frightened of Yahweh's wrath they went forward with it. Jephy's daughter not only went along with it, she made sure she was still a virgin when she was sacrificed, because Yahweh loves him some sweet-ass virgin meat.

Perhaps you paid more attention to Disney during your childhood? The description you give of your teachers sound more like Cruella DeVille and the wicked stepmothers, yet your description of your religion classes sound more like Bambi. Didn't you ever have Rabbis or Lutheran pastors as guests to discuss the Old Testament or the Protestant Reformation?

Naw, man, the last thing they wanted was us hearing antoher point of view. I did ask one of the priests once if Protestants went to heaven, and man, you should have seen that guy hem and haw like a fucking politician.

Now, there were some of the crueler stories in the bible they did discuss. For instance, the famous one where Sr. Mary Butch (Name changed to protect the innocent), who was about fucking 80 years old and really nasty and scary, was telling us about the flood. And I asked why God drowned all the babies. "Because they were wicked babies... WIIIIIIIICKED!!!"

Now, as absolutely batshit as that answer was, in 50 years of discussing it with religious people, I've yet to hear any excuse for God drowning babies that makes him sound like the good guy in that story.

 

[Meriweather]

So there should have been a point where God said to Jephy, "You know, I'm fine if you just sacrifice a cow".

I recommend studying rabbinical commentary.

 

[Meriweather]

Now, as absolutely batshit as that answer was, in 50 years of discussing it with religious people, I've yet to hear any excuse for God drowning babies that makes him sound like the good guy in that story.

You are not listening.

 

[LittleNipper]

Hmmm. Then I wonder why it is that we two Catholics know all these stories? If no one taught us....

I went to Catholic School for 12 years, and never heard about Jephthah the Gileadite. You know, the guy who butchered his daughter because he made an oath to God he didn't quite think through. In fact, the entire book of Judges was glossed over, except for a Disney-fied retelling of Samson (who was actually kind of a terrorist more than a leader.)

Sir, we know that Jephthah made a pledge to GOD. We do not know if he indeed carried it out. The point of the story ---- be very careful of the oaths you make.

 

[LittleNipper]

Wow, here's a fun one.

Let's have fun with a stupid person... it always makes my morning.

WHAT CHRISTIANS? Nazis were pagan evolutionists (survival of the fittest). One is not a Christian in any form of the term when one merely mixes the Word of GOD with Germanic fairy tales (what is the Aryan race anyway)--- calling it heritage and ritualism.

The Nazis wore belt buckles that said, "God's with us" (Gott Mit Uns), not "Odin is Awesome" or "Darwin is Nifty".

View attachment 363587

How many babies are murdered/aborted in one year?

Fetuses aren't people, and Christians have most of them in this country.

How many people were murdered by Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong simply for disagreeing with Atheistic Communism.

Not as many as the Birchers run around claiming. You'd actually have to believe Russians were fucking like rabbits for the population of the USSR to have increased while millions were being killed.

The pagan Japanese murdered 10,000,000 people at the early beginning of WWII simply because they viewed Chinese and Filipinos as inferior people.

The problem with the Japanese is that they were emulating the Europeans. before the west forced open their country, they were peaceful and agrarian. Then they became militaristic and imperialistic so they wouldn't be conquered like the Chinese and Filipinos.

Speaking of the Filipinos, we killed 200,000 of them while calling them our "Little Brown Brothers". Not surprisingly, when the Japanese showed up, a lot of Filipinos were happy to join their Second Philippine Republic.

And Protestants are Christians. The 30 years war was over political control and the rule of the pope.

Exactly my point, they were killing each other over stupid theological arguments like Papal Authority and Transubstantiation.

So ----- the Mormons will tell you that they believe in GOD. However, their "god" is one of many. Their book and prophetic doctrines are considered by them more correct than the Bible. And the "god" they say they trust did NOT create EVERYTHING, And their salvation is dependents on their works above and beyond what Christ accomplished.
Just because one wears a belt buckle with a picture of Jesus on it, doesn't make that one a "Christian". By the works one is revealed (not saved). What did Nazis do? They intimidated, stole, murdered, raped, burned, and LIED. Their works reveal that they were not CHRISTIANS.

 

[onefour1]

So ----- the Mormons will tell you that they believe in GOD. However, their "god" is one of many. Their book and prophetic doctrines are considered by them more correct than the Bible. And the "god" they say they trust did NOT create EVERYTHING, And their salvation is dependents on their works above and beyond what Christ accomplished.
Just because one wears a belt buckle with a picture of Jesus on it, doesn't make that one a "Christian". By the works one is revealed (not saved). What did Nazis do? They intimidated, stole, murdered, raped, burned, and LIED. Their works reveal that they were not CHRISTIANS.

John 10:33-36
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Where was it written in their law?

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Paul the Apostle taught:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

After Paul teaches that an idol is nothing in the world, He then says, "though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) ". Here Paul is referring to what the LORD has already declared regarding mankind, ie "Ye are gods". But even though they are called gods, they are not the god of this world or its associated heaven. To all that be upon this world, there is but one God that we worship and that is God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that creation is a process of organizing things from things that already exist. We do not believe that creation means to create out of absolutely nothing, ie ex nihilo creation. I would challenge one to proof that the term "creation" in the bible means to create out of nothing. When God says He created all things, we believe that what is meant is that:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Obviously Jesus did not create the Father, therefore we can know that the term "all things" does not refer to absolutely everything. John clarifies what is meant by "all things that were created or made" in verse 3 above. He is speaking of things that were made. In other words, there are things that have an eternal existence and cannot be made. Jesus created all things that were made or created, ie organized. As mentioned in a previous post, we believe that all matter and intelligence are eternal. In other words, they were not created or made, neither indeed can be. They are the basis upon which all other things are created.

We consider our scriptures we have that were translated by Joseph Smith to be a more perfect translation, whereas we believe the Bible in its original writings to be just as valid. However, the Bible has gone through many hands through the ages and we believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

Regarding Salvation, we believe no person can be saved without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. In other words, we believe only through the grace of Jesus Christ can mankind be saved. However, we do believe that Jesus Christ himself has placed certain criteria on all mankind before he will grant the grace they need to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. One such requirement that the Lord has given us is that we need to repent. Another is that we need to exercise faith in his name. For one to exercise faith in Jesus Christ, it requires good works.

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As you can see, we are saved by grace through faith. As James points out, faith without works is dead. However, we cannot save ourselves by our works, even though works are required to have faith, faith or works alone will not save us. These must be coupled with the grace of Jesus Christ or they will not save us. Thus verse 9, Not of works (alone). Works must be coupled with a belief to be faith, and faith must be coupled with grace for anyone to be saved. Can we be saved without faith? No! Can we be saved without works? No! Can we be saved by faith and works without grace? No. Grace is what saves but the Lord will not save anyone into the kingdom of Heaven without first exercising faith with works. In other words, the Lord requires faith which includes good works before he will grant the grace needed to enter the kingdom of Heaven. This is the often misunderstood by some of the belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yet it is taught in the Bible.

This statement you made is utterly false. "And their salvation is dependents on their works above and beyond what Christ accomplished." I have been in the church for over 50 years have never been taught that any personal works is the saving force behind our beliefs but only that they are required by the Lord before he will grant his grace.

 

[JoeB131]

I recommend studying rabbinical commentary.

Why? Frankly, there is no interpretation of Judges where Jephy or Yahweh come off looking good.

Sir, we know that Jephthah made a pledge to GOD. We do not know if he indeed carried it out. The point of the story ---- be very careful of the oaths you make.

Actually, the text is very clear that he did carry it out. He butchered his daughter and burned her flesh as an offering to God.

So ----- the Mormons will tell you that they believe in GOD. However, their "god" is one of many. Their book and prophetic doctrines are considered by them more correct than the Bible. And the "god" they say they trust did NOT create EVERYTHING, And their salvation is dependents on their works above and beyond what Christ accomplished.

Joseph Smith was a two-bit con man who wanted to fuck teenage girls and scam less smart people out of money. That his scam is now a religion is kind of scary commentary on human gullibility.

Just because one wears a belt buckle with a picture of Jesus on it, doesn't make that one a "Christian". By the works one is revealed (not saved). What did Nazis do? They intimidated, stole, murdered, raped, burned, and LIED. Their works reveal that they were not CHRISTIANS.

You are engaging in the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

The Nazis found justification for everything they did in the Bible. There were Catholic and Protestant Chaplains in the Wehrmacht who told them they were totally right with Jesus.

Nobody in positions of authority in the Catholic Church up to the Pope denounced Hitler while the war was going on.