When man tells God, you can't....

[Meriweather]

My quarrel wasn't with the imperfections, we're human after all. It was the threat of eternal damnation should one or a number of those imperfections lead to punishment for eternity. Seems over the top.

It is not a threat if that is what one chooses. The choice before us is an eternity with God, or one without God. Sins are forgiven. Total rejection of God is accepted and separation from God occurs.

 

[konradv]

My quarrel wasn't with the imperfections, we're human after all. It was the threat of eternal damnation should one or a number of those imperfections lead to punishment for eternity. Seems over the top.

It is not a threat if that is what one chooses. The choice before us is an eternity with God, or one without God. Sins are forgiven. Total rejection of God is accepted and separation from God occurs.

Granted, but is eternal separation warranted, considering God's position as Creator?

 

[Meriweather]

you kind of inadvertently proved my point.

What I did was present yet another opportunity to show how you think--very narrowly, which you see as very correctly. Everything is black and white to you, which I am quite familiar with--my mother was that way as well. I know exactly how you respond before you respond. I simply ask myself, "How would Mom respond."

By the way....the War was also over States Rights. (I know, I know...not according to you.)

 

[Meriweather]

First, it never actually happened. Second, the purpose of the Author was to keep people scared. If you don't believe in my sky fairy, he'll do awful stuff to you. Don't go over to the Temple of Baal, even though they are having a lot more fun over there.

Yawn. As I said, just like when someone ignores signs of "Quicksand" or "Riptide". God's signs are to aim for the ideal, not only on great decisions, but on the small everyday decisions. Settling for less (and often nothing) leads to a poorer quality of life. Like quicksand and riptides, it is a consequence, not a punishment.

 

[Meriweather]

This is the kid of reasoning of an abusive parent. Don't make me beat you!

That narrow thinking again. Try pondering the elements of literature.

 

[Meriweather]

a God who drowns babies

I know that is cemented in your mind, and I am sorry. The fact remains, God didn't drown babies. It was a natural disaster. Nothing like a natural disaster (or any disaster) for people to take stock of their lives and behavior.

 

[Meriweather]

Except that's exactly what the OT writers did. They stoned people for being witches, working on the sabbath, not being virgins on their wedding nights, being gay,. None of these actions are particularly dangerous, but God insisted people be KILLED for doing them. (Well,not God, he doesn't exist, but the people who made up the Yahweh Cult).

Again, you are imagining things based on modern language and modern culture. Digging deeper into Jewish history, culture, and language and we discover that this culture also believed any court where two deaths occurred in a seventy year period was considered a bloody court. The more serious the offense, the more serious the punishment....this was to let people know how great a transgression was--at least the transgressions that became public knowledge. Remember, each transgression had to be done in front of two witnesses.

 

[Meriweather]

A God who kills babies is good because _______________________/

Asked and answered numerous times. Look, but you will not see. (Isaiah)

 

[Meriweather]

Granted, but is eternal separation warranted, considering God's position as Creator?

That is a question to ask oneself, or to ask someone who wants nothing to do with God. It is their choice. Ask them if they feel they might be making a rash choice. Some are so attached to hate and evil deeds, the thought of having to act unselfishly, with love is painful.

And, yes, I am saying atheists have that choice as well. Look around. Most atheists act selflessly and with love. That is the existence they choose. Eternal life is about the person you are and the kind of existence you are already living. What choice have you already made?

 

[occupied]

Since God continues to hide from us

God isn't hiding from anyone. He stands right before you every day. You just refuse to see him.

I grew up in an ultra religious family and went to church at least twice a week until I moved out on my own. It's not like I have no idea what faith is. Faith was just not enough as I looked at all the suffering of the world. If God exists and he allows all this pain he is not fit to worship.

 

[JoeB131]

What I did was present yet another opportunity to show how you think--very narrowly, which you see as very correctly. Everything is black and white to you, which I am quite familiar with--my mother was that way as well. I know exactly how you respond before you respond. I simply ask myself, "How would Mom respond."

Again, you keep avoiding the question. When it comes to drowning babies, there are no shades of Gray. Just ask Susan Smith.

By the way....the War was also over States Rights. (I know, I know...not according to you.)

Nope, only racists claim that.

Again, you are imagining things based on modern language and modern culture. Digging deeper into Jewish history, culture, and language and we discover that this culture also believed any court where two deaths occurred in a seventy year period was considered a bloody court. The more serious the offense, the more serious the punishment....this was to let people know how great a transgression was--at least the transgressions that became public knowledge. Remember, each transgression had to be done in front of two witnesses.

Actually, you should read the Bible's rules on not being a virgin on your wedding night.

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.-- Deuteronomy 22:13-22

That's all manner of fucked up, there.

I know that is cemented in your mind, and I am sorry. The fact remains, God didn't drown babies. It was a natural disaster.

Except that's NOT what the Bible says. The bible does not say, "Well, there's this local flood coming, you'd better spend years building a boat and gathering hundreds of animals." The bible says, "Build a boat, because I'm going to drown everyone!!!" it was a very unnatural disaster, because it was a world wide one with the intent to eliminate the human race.

 

[Meriweather]

I grew up in an ultra religious family and went to church at least twice a week until I moved out on my own. It's not like I have no idea what faith is. Faith was just not enough as I looked at all the suffering of the world. If God exists and he allows all this pain he is not fit to worship.

We are not strong enough to go through suffering? There is nothing to be learned from it? Our existence would be much better if we were wrapped in protective cotton batting and placed carefully on a shelf where nothing could ever touch us? Every try to bring good out of that which was evil?

After we look at all the suffering, perhaps it should occur to us to then look for all the blessings. The world does contain goodness.

 

[occupied]

I grew up in an ultra religious family and went to church at least twice a week until I moved out on my own. It's not like I have no idea what faith is. Faith was just not enough as I looked at all the suffering of the world. If God exists and he allows all this pain he is not fit to worship.

We are not strong enough to go through suffering? There is nothing to be learned from it? Our existence would be much better if we were wrapped in protective cotton batting and placed carefully on a shelf where nothing could ever touch us? Every try to bring good out of that which was evil?

After we look at all the suffering, perhaps it should occur to us to then look for all the blessings. The world does contain goodness.

The philosophical dilemma of why God allows evil in the world is not going to be solved by us. It is probably the main reason people leave religion. God just does not seem to care. I'll not attack your personal faith if it gives you comfort so I'll just say that it quit working for me. A crisis of faith can be a terrible thing. It nearly destroyed me watching my mother's slow cruel death. In the end it was just better to be an atheist rather than walking around wanting to punch the face of God. I was pretty damned hostile to the Jesus fan club as well. By giving it up I finally found some peace in my life. My belief in God and his seeming indifference was making me a miserable asshole.

 

[Meriweather]

The philosophical dilemma of why God allows evil in the world is not going to be solved by us. It is probably the main reason people leave religion. God just does not seem to care. I'll not attack your personal faith if it gives you comfort so I'll just say that it quit working for me. A crisis of faith can be a terrible thing. It nearly destroyed me watching my mother's slow cruel death. In the end it was just better to be an atheist rather than walking around wanting to punch the face of God. I was pretty damned hostile to the Jesus fan club as well. By giving it up I finally found some peace in my life. My belief in God and his seeming indifference was making me a miserable asshole.

Truly, I understand. Peace is what God wants for us. By the way, I have no faith for anyone to attack. I was either blessed (or afflicted--sometimes difficult to tell which) with knowledge. God Is. God is Love, and God cares whether this life takes us through the thick or through the thin. I know. And, no, this isn't just for me or for some. It is for all.

I do find it interesting that some lives change for the better by turning from unbelief to belief, where others change for the better by turning from belief to unbelief. Odd world we are a part of, but care is a great portion of it.

Please accept my condolences for your mom. My mother as well went through the slow, cruel death. So unfair. No one deserves it. It is just what is.

 

[ding]

More lessons are learned through suffering than anything else. It is an excellent motivator and teacher.

 

[toobfreak]

I wouldn't tell God what to do, but would ask him why he created imperfect beings and then punish them eternally for being imperfect.

God doesn't create imperfect beings, he creates people with choice. And he doesn't punish them for being imperfect, they suffer from their own bad decisions. If people were PERFECT beings, they'd be God.

My quarrel wasn't with the imperfections, we're human after all. It was the threat of eternal damnation should one or a number of those imperfections lead to punishment for eternity. Seems over the top.

Well, that's medieval Christianity I believe you speak of. I've never bought into that too much. I'm not a fire and brimstone sorta guy. I believe though that the way it goes, it isn't your imperfections that get you, Jesus knew we sinned, it is your deliberate callous efforts to disregard, not acknowledge and throw a middle finger at the mistakes those imperfections lead you to rather than seek help in correcting them.

 

[toobfreak]

I grew up in an ultra religious family and went to church at least twice a week

OUCH. I feel sorry for you.

It's not like I have no idea what faith is. Faith was just not enough

I don't believe in faith. I have no faith in faith. It annoys me the idea of trusting something "on faith" that you just don't really know. I've heard of too many people "losing faith" after a lifetime of having it.

I was an athiest. I was a pure scientist. Then one day I had direct experience thrust upon me because I was actually open to the possibilities and had a sincere desire to know how it really was. Once you have that happen to you, there is no denying it, no going back. Things like suffering, etc., become easy to understand. Man is the cause of his own suffering. That's all.

Where man is apart from God, there is suffering. Where there is God, nothing you can do to the body matters. Disease, death, it is all an illusion. The lit soul knows no suffering.

 

[Agit8r]

When man tells God, You can't tell me what to do.... it's like saying he/she was there in the very beginning telling God what to make/create and what not to make/create.

This is the line he used on teenaged Mary?

 

[LittleNipper]

He didnt create "imperfect beings". You make the choice to be as "imperfect" as you want to be, every day. Sin is your choice.

If God is the First Cause of Creation, He did create imperfect beings.

GOD created perfection. It was a choice to become "like GOD." It is impossible to be GOD.

 

[LittleNipper]

I grew up in an ultra religious family and went to church at least twice a week

OUCH. I feel sorry for you.

It's not like I have no idea what faith is. Faith was just not enough

I don't believe in faith. I have no faith in faith. It annoys me the idea of trusting something "on faith" that you just don't really know. I've heard of too many people "losing faith" after a lifetime of having it.

I was an athiest. I was a pure scientist. Then one day I had direct experience thrust upon me because I was actually open to the possibilities and had a sincere desire to know how it really was. Once you have that happen to you, there is no denying it, no going back. Things like suffering, etc., become easy to understand. Man is the cause of his own suffering. That's all.

Where man is apart from God, there is suffering. Where there is God, nothing you can do to the body matters. Disease, death, it is all an illusion. The lit soul knows no suffering.

Jesus suffered on the cross and HE was GOD. No one could have done all the miracles HE did and not be. And what is wrong with attending CHURCH more than one a week? I know people who go to the bar every night, and I cannot say it does them any good.