When did we stop educating people?

[Nosmo King]

Yet all the schools do here is ask for money to build new schools and teardown the old ones. Using buildings as scapegoats.

How old is "old"?

Does it matter, if they are properly maintained and equiped?

My experience is the older the building, the more costly upgrades are. Elevators, fenestration, roofing, plumbing, HVAC, electrical and computer wiring, lighting all cost more as refits rather than new construction. Unless the building has some historic significance to the institution (University Hall on the Ohio State campus comes to mind), it usually serves the school better to design for current needs rather than retrofit some antique.

 

[saveliberty]

How old is "old"?

Does it matter, if they are properly maintained and equiped?

My experience is the older the building, the more costly upgrades are. Elevators, fenestration, roofing, plumbing, HVAC, electrical and computer wiring, lighting all cost more as refits rather than new construction. Unless the building has some historic significance to the institution (University Hall on the Ohio State campus comes to mind), it usually serves the school better to design for current needs rather than retrofit some antique.

Please explain how doing the upgrade AND building an entire new structure will save money.

Note: I mentioned the building had been properly maintained and equiped.

 

[Nosmo King]

Does it matter, if they are properly maintained and equiped?

My experience is the older the building, the more costly upgrades are. Elevators, fenestration, roofing, plumbing, HVAC, electrical and computer wiring, lighting all cost more as refits rather than new construction. Unless the building has some historic significance to the institution (University Hall on the Ohio State campus comes to mind), it usually serves the school better to design for current needs rather than retrofit some antique.

Please explain how doing the upgrade AND building an entire new structure will save money.

Note: I mentioned the building had been properly maintained and equiped.

The point is it's easier and usually cheaper (depending on the circumstances) to build new rather than retrofit. School district demographics change over time. Sometimes the old building is too small, too large or not up to current building safety codes.

 

[Bones]

The principles of education used to be reading, writing and math. Probably some Latin and science too. The teachers and professors were very strict and never questioned. I don't know how you became so confused.

I did romanticize the past a tad, however I was referring to colleges specifically when talking about critical thinking. Some of the professors back in the 1960s certainly had the balls to speak out against the horseshit the government was shoveling and stage protests with their fellow students, however that movement tamed down a bit in the 70s and then started to considerably wane 80s and thereafter.

Now, those same professors are tired and old. Nothing more than docile kittens who sit back and contemplate their failures. Or the failures of others to rise up.

Your last paragraph is clearly the disappointed rant of someone who couldn't cut college and decided to blame the system and demonize every employer. Do you see a lot of college courses geared at teaching you how to work on an assembly line? I think not.

I was not using the term factory literally. Incidentally, most assembly line or factory work has been outsourced. Hence the depression the United States is in.

Not every employer is vile, however from what I've witnessed working full-time/part-time and from what my friends and family have witnessed as well, the head honchos and/or floor bosses are messianic shitheads who merely looking after their own asses whilst caring a fuck less about their employees. It's the bottom line that counts. First and foremost. The well-being of the worker bee comes in a distant second or third or fourth or fifth pending on where you work.

The anecdotal evidence makes a strong enough case against a fair amount of employers. Stop a person randomly on the street and ask him/her to answer these questions honestly:

Do you enjoy your work? Is your boss fair and levelheaded? Are you being paid enough to survive on? Do you receive any benefits? Are you treated with respect?

I'm sure you'll get several interesting answers.

You make many statements which you failed to back up with proof. That makes you a simple whiner in your mom's basement. Got a job?

Yes, I do. I got lucky and landed an occupation where my boss treats me like a human being and I can make my own hours. I don't live in my "mothers basement" either.

How old are you? I'm assuming you're roughly around 40-60 and have no clue how dire the economic/job situation actually is for all generations (my generation especially). When I lived back east, my mother was on my case about finding a job after a received my bachelors degree (yes, I graduated college, asshole). After months of putting out applications every week with no success, I decided to head west in search of greener pastures. I was fortunate to come across something respectable and haven't looked back since.

As for my mother, she's been searching adamantly for months after her department was dissolved and had only one interview. She's currently on unemployment and apologized for getting on my case. She didn't realize how horrible joblessness was.

It behooves you to have some sympathy for those who cannot find employment.

You should have left well enough alone. Now your on my radar.

Shaking in my boots. Shaking in my boots...

 

[saveliberty]

Both need to be considered. Point is, usually schools just default to new.

 

[saveliberty]

The principles of education used to be reading, writing and math. Probably some Latin and science too. The teachers and professors were very strict and never questioned. I don't know how you became so confused.

I did romanticize the past a tad, however I was referring to colleges specifically when talking about critical thinking. Some of the professors back in the 1960s certainly had the balls to speak out against the horseshit the government was shoveling and stage protests with their fellow students, however that movement tamed down a bit in the 70s and then started to considerably wane 80s and thereafter.

Now, those same professors are tired and old. Nothing more than docile kittens who sit back and contemplate their failures. Or the failures of others to rise up.

Your last paragraph is clearly the disappointed rant of someone who couldn't cut college and decided to blame the system and demonize every employer. Do you see a lot of college courses geared at teaching you how to work on an assembly line? I think not.

I was not using the term factory literally. Incidentally, most assembly line or factory work has been outsourced. Hence the depression the United States is in.

Not every employer is vile, however from what I've witnessed working full-time/part-time and from what my friends and family have witnessed as well, the head honchos and/or floor bosses are messianic shitheads who merely looking after their own asses whilst caring a fuck less about their employees. It's the bottom line that counts. First and foremost. The well-being of the worker bee comes in a distant second or third or fourth or fifth pending on where you work.

The anecdotal evidence makes a strong enough case against a fair amount of employers. Stop a person randomly on the street and ask him/her to answer these questions honestly:

Do you enjoy your work? Is your boss fair and levelheaded? Are you being paid enough to survive on? Do you receive any benefits? Are you treated with respect?

I'm sure you'll get several interesting answers.

You make many statements which you failed to back up with proof. That makes you a simple whiner in your mom's basement. Got a job?

Yes, I do. I got lucky and landed an occupation where my boss treats me like a human being and I can make my own hours. I don't live in my "mothers basement" either.

How old are you? I'm assuming you're roughly around 40-60 and have no clue how dire the economic/job situation actually is for all generations (my generation especially). When I lived back east, my mother was on my case about finding a job after a received my bachelors degree (yes, I graduated college, asshole). After months of putting out applications every week with no success, I decided to head west in search of greener pastures. I was fortunate to come across something respectable and haven't looked back since.

As for my mother, she's been searching adamantly for months after her department was dissolved and had only one interview. She's currently on unemployment and apologized for getting on my case. She didn't realize how horrible joblessness was.

It behooves you to have some sympathy for those who cannot find employment.

You should have left well enough alone. Now your on my radar.

Shaking in my boots. Shaking in my boots...

Thank you for the revisions to your prior post. I can appreciate the job market, as I graduated college in the recession of 82-84. Also spent last summer helping my daughter find a teaching job, successfully. Death by one liners is not pretty.

 

[Skull Pilot]

All I know about our education system is that it used to produce people who could build a plane like the SR 71 with nothing but a slide rule and now we produce people who can text while not looking but can't count out change.

Seems to me we need to go back to teaching the old fashioned way.

 

[Samson]

All I know about our education system is that it used to produce people who could build a plane like the SR 71 with nothing but a slide rule and now we produce people who can text while not looking but can't count out change.

Seems to me we need to go back to teaching the old fashioned way.

The guys that built the SR 71, and sent men to the moon went to SEGREGATED SCHOOLS.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Yes it does matter how old the building is.

Some were built to old standards which are no longer safe or serve the communitys needs.

When you pay teachers the same pay a 711 clerk gets you cant expect first class teaching.

You are simply mad , completely and utterly bonkers .

 

[chanel]

OMG - 7/11 is paying $50K a year now? Holy shit. Maybe I should rethink this teaching stuff.

 

[Skull Pilot]

All I know about our education system is that it used to produce people who could build a plane like the SR 71 with nothing but a slide rule and now we produce people who can text while not looking but can't count out change.

Seems to me we need to go back to teaching the old fashioned way.

The guys that built the SR 71, and sent men to the moon went to SEGREGATED SCHOOLS.

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Flopper]

Does it matter, if they are properly maintained and equiped?

My experience is the older the building, the more costly upgrades are. Elevators, fenestration, roofing, plumbing, HVAC, electrical and computer wiring, lighting all cost more as refits rather than new construction. Unless the building has some historic significance to the institution (University Hall on the Ohio State campus comes to mind), it usually serves the school better to design for current needs rather than retrofit some antique.

Please explain how doing the upgrade AND building an entire new structure will save money.

Note: I mentioned the building had been properly maintained and equiped.

The cost of maintaining an old school can be very high. I am familiar with a 90 year old elementary school which was recently replaced. Three times the building required extensive work on the foundations of the buildings. The cost was well over half million dollars. I think some of the wiring was pre-WWII. The lack of insulation and the high ceilings made it very expensive to heat.

The worst thing about these old schools is that they are not suitable for the way we educate kids. The room are two small. They were built for much smaller class sizes than we have today. The cafeteria was so small lunch began at 10:45. The lack of good electrical wiring and space severely limited the use of computers in the classroom. In short, we should have replaced schools like this years ago.

 

[Flopper]

My experience is the older the building, the more costly upgrades are. Elevators, fenestration, roofing, plumbing, HVAC, electrical and computer wiring, lighting all cost more as refits rather than new construction. Unless the building has some historic significance to the institution (University Hall on the Ohio State campus comes to mind), it usually serves the school better to design for current needs rather than retrofit some antique.

Please explain how doing the upgrade AND building an entire new structure will save money.

Note: I mentioned the building had been properly maintained and equiped.

The point is it's easier and usually cheaper (depending on the circumstances) to build new rather than retrofit. School district demographics change over time. Sometimes the old building is too small, too large or not up to current building safety codes.

Yes, I think you hit on a major point. The demographics are changing. We built dozens of new schools where I lived a few years ago. It wan't because the schools were in that bad a shape. It was because the schools were located in the areas that were now mostly industrial and commercial. The kids were in the suburbs, not the intercity where the schools were. Busing kids from the suburbs into dilapidated schools created public outcry to build schools.

 

[Samson]

All I know about our education system is that it used to produce people who could build a plane like the SR 71 with nothing but a slide rule and now we produce people who can text while not looking but can't count out change.

Seems to me we need to go back to teaching the old fashioned way.

The guys that built the SR 71, and sent men to the moon went to SEGREGATED SCHOOLS.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Not always.

But answering the question "When did we stop educating people?" implies that there is a coorelated issue.

I'm just pointing out that issue could be segregation: While integration of classrooms has social benefits, a more educated society has not been one of them.

 

[saveliberty]

Please explain how doing the upgrade AND building an entire new structure will save money.

Note: I mentioned the building had been properly maintained and equiped.

The point is it's easier and usually cheaper (depending on the circumstances) to build new rather than retrofit. School district demographics change over time. Sometimes the old building is too small, too large or not up to current building safety codes.

Yes, I think you hit on a major point. The demographics are changing. We built dozens of new schools where I lived a few years ago. It wan't because the schools were in that bad a shape. It was because the schools were located in the areas that were now mostly industrial and commercial. The kids were in the suburbs, not the intercity where the schools were. Busing kids from the suburbs into dilapidated schools created public outcry to build schools.

We have fewer kids in the same geographical area, with no issues as presented in your argument. In fact, the proposal was to build the school in the country and bus everybody.

 

[rdean]

My kids attended a private school. The teachers were/are not well paid. In fact, some were teaching BEFORE they had state "licenses". The school has some Harvard, Notre Dame and other major school grads now. Just throw more money at them huh?

Back your claims with verifiable facts

In 1990, Hillsdale Academy opened its doors to 45 students in grades K-8. Today, it serves students in grades K-12, and its program has gained national acclaim. Under the auspices of Hillsdale College, the Academy bases its curriculum on a solid grounding in fundamental academic skills, an exploration of the arts and sciences and an understanding of the foundational tenets of our Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman heritage.

Hillsdale Academy - Hillsdale Academy

Each year, Hillsdale Academy evaluates the academic
performance of its Lower School students through the
Iowa Tests of Basic Skills. Students in the Upper School
are assessed with data from the Michigan Merit Exam and ACT
composite test scores. Currently, Hillsdale Academy ranks
sixth out of 800 public and private high schools on these two
indicators. While the national average ACT score is 21, Academy
students average 26.

http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userImages/jcarr/Page_5002/AcademyLane_Fall08.pdf

After graduating summa cum laude and
Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard University
in May 2008, Nicholas Hayes, ’04, spent
the summer working as a counselor at the
Great Books Summer Program at Stanford
University in Palo Alto, California.

http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userImages/jcarr/Page_5002/AcademyLane_Fall08.pdf

I think the phrase is bullshit walks. Let me see your backside moving away Truthmatters.

arts and sciences and an understanding of the foundational tenets of our Judeo-Christian

"Arts", "Science" and "Mysticism"? An "exploration? I suspect it's a very short trip.

On the other hand, it's how you define "science". In Bob Jones University, and religious institutions of that ilk, "science" means "natural science", or the study of honeybees pollinating flowers. Or the speed of hummingbird wings. "Real" science is left at the back door. Even right wingers have to admit that.

 

[chanel]

Really? How about Georgetown, Notre Dame, Boston College, Villanova, etc? No "real" science programs at these schools of "mysticism" Dr. Dean ?