What Non-Christians Want Christians To Hear

[AVG-JOE]

The point is that it doesn't matter.

Whether a faith has direct lineage to some ancient orthodoxy or is a modern cobbling of beliefs like Mormonism, ALL have just as much proof as any other. All deserve just as much respect and tolerance.

Being unable to prove my opinion that if God is, He's way bigger than ALL the ancient stories, let alone any one of them, I have no right to tell anyone that their faith is wrong. And I deserve the same respect.


EVERYONE has the same right to be wrong in religious matters.

I think we're talking about two different things. You're talking about how any religion can say anything it likes. Which is true.

I'm saying how when you take two religions (however true or not) and compare their core beliefs, yet one's including another discrete faith with its' own despite it being mutually exclusive, that's an error of theology.

To put it another way, 1+1=2; 2+2=4 (any/all/every religion being numbers); but a+1 does not equal 2 or 4. A number plus a letter makes no sense.

At the end of the day Brother, all you have is your opinion of the core beliefs of religion A and your opinion of the core beliefs of religion B.

Your opinion of claims. Your beliefs.

The good news is that you have 100% control of yours

The bad news is that you sir, are just another swinging dick taking a ride on this living Timeline, and EVERY swinging dick and EVERY sheath-for-sword has the same right to be wrong.


If there was proof, it would be science, not religion.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Or, if Christianity's true then Judaism can't be. Simialrly, if Islam's true Christianity and Judaism can't be. But you can't combine any of those 3 together and still get something true because they're all mutually exclusive. If Christianity were only the NT it'd be fine because it's not trying to co-opt another religious system, but because it is it's making itself objectively wrong by trying.

Judaism gave us the idea of the Jewish Messiah. Releasing a new book saying the Messiah's come and gone would be fine. But saying the Jewish text is true, BUT so is our's, is completely at odds with the first religion.

Is it good news or bad news that opinions vary so?

Would the world be a better place if everyone held the same opinion of the the ancient stories?

Would things be different if The Torah had included a path to The God of Abraham for the gentiles, as well as guidance for those born in to the family of Abraham, rendering both The New Testament and The Koran irrelevant?

​

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Core theology of a religion isn't opinion (in that what they are is consultable and thus objective, if not empirically true.) Can put in graph form if you need so we can compare column A with column B and see how they're fundamentally at odds with each other.

Comparison Chart: Christianity vs. Judaism - ReligionFacts

Whether or not any religion is actually true is immaterial here. We're comparing two systems. Could be anything else, doesn't have to be religion. Let's take physics: what happens if you combine fire and water? Do they mix and become some new element or process? No. They cancel each other out. Not because we have the opinion of that happening but because we can objectively test and observe the results.

Same with any two religious systems (or at least those 2.) But just as you can't successfully combine or hybridize Hinduism and Islam, you can't successfully blend Judaism and Christianity.

 

[Spiderman]

My message to the believers of all ilks out there:

Keep your beliefs to yourself.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Or, if Christianity's true then Judaism can't be. Simialrly, if Islam's true Christianity and Judaism can't be. But you can't combine any of those 3 together and still get something true because they're all mutually exclusive. If Christianity were only the NT it'd be fine because it's not trying to co-opt another religious system, but because it is it's making itself objectively wrong by trying.

Judaism gave us the idea of the Jewish Messiah. Releasing a new book saying the Messiah's come and gone would be fine. But saying the Jewish text is true, BUT so is our's, is completely at odds with the first religion.

Is it good news or bad news that opinions vary so?

Would the world be a better place if everyone held the same opinion of the the ancient stories?

Would things be different if The Torah had included a path to The God of Abraham for the gentiles, as well as guidance for those born in to the family of Abraham, rendering both The New Testament and The Koran irrelevant?

​

I've wondered about that, would the world be better if only 1 religion existed and we all agreed about it. Yes, but it could never happen because religions spring up somewhere initially and thus the events put foward as true would be highly subjective to some specific locale. It's why all religions eventually split off into branches with different ideas on core theology. At least 3 kinds of Buddhism, dozen or so branches of Judaism, thousands of versions of Christianity (or at least versions of the English Bible,) 2 or 3 major branches of Islam, etc.

In all, we've created some 25,000 discrete religions so far. Most of them claim to be the one and only truth, yet when viewed as cultural occurences the reality is easier to understand. Religions occur in specific places and thus start off having value only to those immediately effected. It's why I believe Mormonism then came about claiming Yeshua was here in North America. A religion on the other side of the planet probably has less appeal to some creating the need for a more domestic form of it.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

My message to the believers of all ilks out there:

Keep your beliefs to yourself.

Great quote from George Carlin along those lines,

"Religion is like a pair of shoes. Find one that fits you, but don't make me wear your shoes."

 

[editec]

Christian EVANGELICALS represent a small subset of Chistendom.

They pretty much annoy other Christians as much as non Christians.

They hate us even more that non christians because we aren't merely hethans we're HERETICS.

Please keep that in mind while you're painting with that BROAD BRUSH, eh?

i wasn't painting with *any* brush. i was simply sharing an article.

If a NAZI has posted an article that accused Jews of something, you'd not think to yourself, Well, he's just posting that article.


No I think you'd imagine that the person posting that tripe, alsi believed it, unless they said they did not in the post, Jill.

And hell, look how I just made the same mistake!

I posted above that EVANGELICALS are responsible when I should have realized that I meant to say SOME evangelicals.

Its hard to be fair in this world where everybody is so damned angry and frightened, where there are multiple sets of "facts" we need to sift through on every issue.

The continuous FEAR propaganda is not only affecting stupid people, Jill. it affects you and me, too.

None of us are thinking clearly as we ought.

THAT is not an accident of history, that is the PLAN -- to make us HATE OUR NEIGHBORS.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Core theology of a religion isn't opinion (in that what they are is consultable and thus objective, if not empirically true.) Can put in graph form if you need so we can compare column A with column B and see how they're fundamentally at odds with each other.

Comparison Chart: Christianity vs. Judaism - ReligionFacts

Whether or not any religion is actually true is immaterial here. We're comparing two systems. Could be anything else, doesn't have to be religion. Let's take physics: what happens if you combine fire and water? Do they mix and become some new element or process? No. They cancel each other out. Not because we have the opinion of that happening but because we can objectively test and observe the results.

Same with any two religious systems (or at least those 2.) But just as you can't successfully combine or hybridize Hinduism and Islam, you can't successfully blend Judaism and Christianity.

Sure it is! And comparing Christianity to Judaism, or either to Islam, is pointless in my opinion because in my opinion, The Torah, The New Testament and The Koran are published words that are no more "inspired by a Deity" than are the published words of Stephen King and Edgar Allen Poe.

That statement is a fact, in my opinion. I understand that plenty of folks disagree with me and plenty of folks wouldn't argue with that statement. Every Monkey has the right their own opinion. Every Monkey deserves the right to be wrong in the opinion of the other Monkeys.


Like I said... if it were provable, it would be science, not religion.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Core theology of a religion isn't opinion (in that what they are is consultable and thus objective, if not empirically true.) Can put in graph form if you need so we can compare column A with column B and see how they're fundamentally at odds with each other.

Comparison Chart: Christianity vs. Judaism - ReligionFacts

Whether or not any religion is actually true is immaterial here. We're comparing two systems. Could be anything else, doesn't have to be religion. Let's take physics: what happens if you combine fire and water? Do they mix and become some new element or process? No. They cancel each other out. Not because we have the opinion of that happening but because we can objectively test and observe the results.

Same with any two religious systems (or at least those 2.) But just as you can't successfully combine or hybridize Hinduism and Islam, you can't successfully blend Judaism and Christianity.

Sure it is! And comparing Christianity to Judaism or either to Islam is pointless in my opinion because in my opinion, The Torah, The New Testament and The Koran are published words that are no more "inspired by a Deity" than are the published words of Stephen King and Edgar Allen Poe.

That statement is a fact, in my opinion. I understand that plenty of folks disagree with me and plenty of folks wouldn't argue with that statement. Every Monkey has the right their own opinion. Every Monkey deserves the right to be wrong in the opinion of the other Monkeys.


Like I said... if it were provable, it would be science, not religion.

Oh now I get it, you're just being snarky.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Not really.

My point in religion is always two:

Religion is a matter of opinion & All religious opinion has equal value.​

 

[hobelim]

Not really.

My point in religion is always two:

Religion is a matter of opinion & All religious opinion has equal value.​

I don't know about that Joe.. People do not all worship the same God and people are not all the same inside. Some people are as innocent as puppies while others are snarling beasts drooling at the thought of devouring them.


Does the religious opinion that it is better to forgive sin and love your neighbor have equal value to the religious opinion that sin must be punished by chopping off your neighbors hands and feet ?


Is it not true that some religious beliefs are completely false and defile and contaminate the mind and have absolutely no positive value at all?

 

[The Professor]

I think what Chuck is saying, Jillian, is that the OP is negative and is asking others to join you in smearing Christians. If reading about the Gospel of Jesus Christ is an imposition to you don't click on the thread. There are plenty of forums on USMB. As to Christians who share the gospel.........

That is what Christians are commanded to do by Jesus Christ. Preach the Gospel.

* My fav. maxim on this board? Accentuate the positive!!

and where does this jesus say to pray?

pray not for the glory of man etc and so forth...why do you ignore that.....and no one is christian bashing......it is simply the view from another side.....and seems many simply cannot handle that

There is a difference between praying which can be done in a closet and evangelizing which obviously cannot. Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God and there is a Biblical basis for Christian proselytizing. Verses such as the following direct Christians to spread the Word:

“Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul” (Ezekiel 3:17-19, KJV).

“Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32; see also Luke 12:8, Romans 10:9, and 1 John 4:15, KJV).

If Christians feel they have found the truth and their lives have been enriched thereby, there is nothing wrong with them sharing their experiences and spreading their joy. In fact, I would expect them to react this way. Certainly, if I found something that changed my life for the better I would want others to know about it. And if I were genuinely convinced that those who did not believe in Christ were going to hell, I would do my very best to prevent this from happening; hell, I'd be preaching from the rooftops.

People have different ways of doing almost everything and when it comes to spreading the Word some Christians are more personable than others. During my long life, I have encountered both the rudely aggressive and the friendly persuader. Every time a Mormon comes to my door I feel good because I know I will meet sincere young men who are polite and upbeat. It has been over half a century since a non-Morman Christian attempted to convert me in person. The Internet is obviously another story and even here you can see the various styles of those Christians on a conversion mission. Some belittle and degrade, while others are positive and caring. It is what it is.

I suggest that when you criticize Christians for their attempts to convert you, it is proper to condemn their methods, but not their goals.

 

[Chuckt]

I think what Chuck is saying, Jillian, is that the OP is negative and is asking others to join you in smearing Christians. If reading about the Gospel of Jesus Christ is an imposition to you don't click on the thread. There are plenty of forums on USMB. As to Christians who share the gospel.........

That is what Christians are commanded to do by Jesus Christ. Preach the Gospel.

* My fav. maxim on this board? Accentuate the positive!!

saying christians need to respect the views of others isn't "bashing" anyone.

when you tell others they are going to hell, however….


see how that works?

Are there any absolutes in right and wrong? If yes then we can tell you, if "no" then: Are you absolutely sure?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Not really.

My point in religion is always two:

Religion is a matter of opinion & All religious opinion has equal value.​

I don't know about that Joe.. People do not all worship the same God and people are not all the same inside.
Some people are as innocent as puppies while others are snarling beasts drooling at the thought of devouring them.


Does the religious opinion that it is better to forgive sin and love your neighbor have equal value to the religious opinion that sin must be punished by chopping off your neighbors hands and feet ?


Is it not true that some religious beliefs are completely false and defile and contaminate the mind and have absolutely no positive value at all?

That is precisely why we have Civil Laws and precisely why Civil Law MUST trump Religious Law whenever the two conflict, and why Civil Law should try to err on the side of liberty.

Punish behavior not belief. Monsters of any faith should be isolated or terminated.

 

[Sunshine]

As a Christian born again and washed in the blood of the lamb, I suggest quietly that when folks tell us to leave them alone or not impose our views on them, to listen to what they are saying and pray about it quietly.

To watch certain Christians trying to proselytize can be quite disturbing. Always remember the Second Great Commandment. Missionary work from witnessing in the hall way to knocking on doors has to be done with love.

There will be no missionary work unless the missionary is free to say:

King James Bible

Romans 3: 23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Christians are trying to convert sinners. If a person doesn't know he is a sinner he needs to be told. It is only those with horribly low self esteem who take it as a personal attack and get all indignant and self righteous about it. The exact opposite of what has been posted here. But as usual, non Christians who presume to tell Christians what they should do have it backward.

Even Jesus told Christians to stop bothering with those who will not hear what they have to say. As well they should. To not move on is self defeating.

King James Bible

Matthew 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet

 

[Chuckt]

As a Jew, I gave up trying to convince Christians or Muslims on the errors of their faith long ago. Got enough wayward Jews to focus my energies on without 'casting my net' any wider than that.

I don't care much about the errors of others as long as they don't try to impose their views on me and don't hurt anyone else.

When the ends justifies the means, you aren't any better than those whom you try to correct.
You said, "I don't care much" and the fact is that we should all care.

 

[JakeStarkey]

As a Christian born again and washed in the blood of the lamb, I suggest quietly that when folks tell us to leave them alone or not impose our views on them, to listen to what they are saying and pray about it quietly.

To watch certain Christians trying to proselytize can be quite disturbing. Always remember the Second Great Commandment. Missionary work from witnessing in the hall way to knocking on doors has to be done with love.

There will be no missionary work unless the missionary is free to say:

King James Bible

Romans 3: 23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Christians are trying to convert sinners. If a person doesn't know he is a sinner he needs to be told. It is only those with horribly low self esteem who take it as a personal attack and get all indignant and self righteous about it. The exact opposite of what has been posted here. But as usual, non Christians who presume to tell Christians what they should do have it backward.

Even Jesus told Christians to stop bothering with those who will not hear what they have to say. As well they should. To not move on is self defeating.

King James Bible

Matthew 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet

Sunshine, what you say is true, but it has to be done in the spirit of the Second Great Commandment.

I have seen some missionaries that are so wound up they do the work of twenty devils.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Except when comparing two religions. Then whether they're opinion or not, correct or not doesn't matter because the comparisons limited to the two religions 'reality bubble.' As with Christianity believing Yeshua was the Messiah, and Judaism believing he wasn't. Whether he was or not wasn't isn't relevant because the question's being restricted to a comparion of two discrete systems.

...Fast moving thread, this was for AVG-JOE.

 

[Derideo_Te]

If all Christians were like Jake and Jeri there would be no need for the OP. Respecting the rights of others to have their own beliefs/lack thereof is first and foremost. The only way to truly gain "converts" is to live a life that others want to follow.

 

[Sunshine]

As a Christian born again and washed in the blood of the lamb, I suggest quietly that when folks tell us to leave them alone or not impose our views on them, to listen to what they are saying and pray about it quietly.

To watch certain Christians trying to proselytize can be quite disturbing. Always remember the Second Great Commandment. Missionary work from witnessing in the hall way to knocking on doors has to be done with love.

There will be no missionary work unless the missionary is free to say:



Christians are trying to convert sinners. If a person doesn't know he is a sinner he needs to be told. It is only those with horribly low self esteem who take it as a personal attack and get all indignant and self righteous about it. The exact opposite of what has been posted here. But as usual, non Christians who presume to tell Christians what they should do have it backward.

Even Jesus told Christians to stop bothering with those who will not hear what they have to say. As well they should. To not move on is self defeating.

King James Bible

Matthew 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet

Sunshine, what you say is true, but it has to be done in the spirit of the Second Great Commandment.

I have seen some missionaries that are so wound up they do the work of twenty devils.

I have never seen that, and I don't think we see that from the Christian posters on this forum, like Jeri.